During my time here, I have found some of you to be too opinionated - like your life depends upon what you think about audio gear. Holding on to one’s beliefs a bit too tightly is bad for the soul.
I was reading some content on the Ken Rockwell website, and then found an article entitled: "What is an audiophile?"
in the article, Ken says: Audiophiles are non-technical, non-musical kooks who imagine the darnedestly stupid things about audio equipment. Audiophiles are fun to watch; they’re just as confused at how audio equipment or music really works as primitive men like cargo cults are about airplanes.
Given my time on this forum and a few others, I have found his statements to be true. I mean, if you have an amplifier that costs say, $10,000, and you buy cables for $20,000, is that really going to improve the sound? (make the stereo image more accurate)
Or on the otherside, if you buy an amplifier for $1000 and then go buy the top of the line audioquest cables costing tens of thousands of dollars, then would the sound improve accordingly? After reading some of their literature, I cannot be sure they have an understanding of how electricrity works, much less the intricate details involving high-end audio systems.
And then we have power conditioning to consider. I have done extensive research online and it turns out that if your gear is really "high-end" it should already have a device inside that filters the incoming AC. Therefore, do you really need a power conditioner?
I learned about PS Audio products being spec-ed much higher than their measured performance. This is also true of the audio "power plants" that cost thousands of dollars. No really, tons of money to "regenerate" power with little to no sonic benefits.
Would love to hear what you guys think about these findings.
All of us had their own experience and various knowledge...
For example i understand very well what poetry is in relation to linguistic and prose ....
Then i can admit easily if i am wrong in this matter why? Because i know it so well that i can understand the value of an opinion here easily....
In acoustic it is not so easy for me why?
Because here i dont have all the mathematical , the physical and neurophysiological knowledge at hand ... I have only my listenings experiments for 2 years and some basic understanding, then i can spot less easily my limitations about some technical point...
But i learned enough to be able to tune my room and the change was ASTOUNDING... It is why i insist about acoustic over gear upgrades...
Am i opinionated here?
No i know what i lived through...
The more we know about something or about a specialized field the easiest it is to spot our ignorance points and suspect and guess about our blind spot in this field ....
In the opposite way opinionated person are sometimes specialized mind and expert who know a lot about some aspects but who overestimated the narrow band of their expertise...For a hammer user all is nail...
We all die ignorant but we may die the heart and brain open...
For me the most interesting aspect of studying is RELATION between fields...
Not so much the field in itself ... I am more a mystic or poet than a scientist...But my field of interests are poetry, mathematic, music and linguistic and other i will not mention because i hate too much controversies..
Poet i am then, but i have no fear of equations... 😁😊
I am fascinated by acoustic because there is a poetry in sound called music and there is mathematic... These two extremes poetry and mathematic fascinate me...
The great geometer Alain Connes just exposed for the last years the deep link between primes numbers distribution, Hilbert Space non commutative operators, physics and music...
Remember that music modulo Pythagoean school is one of the main root of European science...
And music is probably at the origin of the language in evolution , and in language the poetic mode complement the prosaic mode so well that at the end i am very interested by exploring the relation between the right part of the brain and the left complementary part, linked to intuition and analysis, details focus or background focus attention, poetical and prosaic mode etc...
If you think that poetry and mathematic are world apart think twice they are Janus brothers...And Music is their mother...
Nobody here is opinionated, we just all know we’re right
But the relation between recording an acoustic lived performance and "conveying" all the trade off choices of the recording engineer to a speakers/rooms/ears is more a TRANSLATION for me than a reproduction...I think you are ok with that...
Then what you call "delusion" about the obsessive desire to recreate the original performance is right ...it is a delusion to some degree...
Then we are on the same page here...
But a remark about your first sentence , i apologize to say this to you, apply also to you...
Mahgister, by the simple act of posting what you did, which could be wrong, you are, are you not, pretending to be right?
i dont pretend to be ABSOLUTELY right on everything, i only discuss politely...
i respect your expertise...But when we express an opinion it is only that, here an opinion...
Must i stay silent and never answer or comment your post?
i can concur with your opinion like here not always dissent...
I like to learn and discuss...
«He never said "yes" to a possible bride because he could be wrong»-Groucho Marx 🤓
Mahgister, by the simple act of posting what you did, which could be wrong, you are, are you not, pretending to be right?
I agree in principle there is a better correlation to what can be readily seen in a photography image and how a person will perceive it, versus what happens with sound hitting our ears. Most of our discussion is not about sound though, it is about electricity. There is far less room for interpretation even if that will become a sound.
I think the bigger difference is in the perception of those participating in each hobby. We have no illusions in photography that a 2 dimensional photograph can ever accurately portray the full 3 dimensional experience of stereoscopic imagery. We not only readily accept deviations from accuracy, we encourage it. We want our reds redder, our blues bluer, we often want the background blurred to highlight the foreground, and we may even reduce the resolution on facial skin to hide blemishes. What’s more, we can readily compare the result side by side. In audio we have deluded ourselves that we are trying to recreate an original performance, when that is both impossible, but probably in most cases undesirable. We want the feel of a live performance, but all the benefits that exist because it was not recorded as a live performance would be experienced.
The one similarity to hifi audio is that hifi has also reached a technical plateau. The response to that is much different.
It is also because acoustic integrate optic channels in the brain not the reverse...Acoustic channels in the brain are older , more useful in the sea with smell than vision...
And measured performances are more simple to measure and evaluate in human optic perception and production than in sound/music perception...
And learning acoustic is more complex than learning photography ...Photography like painting is more related and more tributary to chemicals and simple tools than to a complex language linked to complex tools and to the body control itself...
And it is true that some imagine erroneously they can assess quality of audio system by specs sheets and in any uncontrolled room... we can effectively evaluate a camera WITHOUT taking photos...But we cannot evaluate a sound system or an instrument without tuning them and listening them...Listening is an art in itself that must be learned ...
Also when we see something we are related to his external appearence, when we hear a resonant object source we enter into his intimate qualities , we are able to detect it at distance and without seeing it...
It is probably the reason why some of the first human population in dense forest for example begin to develop more intensely the use of whistling and singing to keep beast at a distance and keep an ongoing communication between them by voices or talking drums...Language come from music for me...And sound like fire is a powerful weapon...With sound you can organize large hunt of large animals by large synbchronized groups...
Language at his origin is a gesture of ALL THE BODY not only from the throat...Language is related to music and come from it... When language detach more from music he localize itself more around the throat, and became more a linguistic tool than a musical body gesture...
I dont pretend to be right... For sure....But this is a main research trend...
Interesting to compare. Camera performance can be objectively measured and everyone seems to a accept the results. Camera sensors have reached an asymptote in performance with only small gains generation to generation now. In photography everyone wants the best technical performance and then adjusts the final result to taste in software.
The one similarity to hifi audio is that hifi has also reached a technical plateau. The response to that is much different.
Show me a device that measures sound quality and I will certainly get one. Until that time I will use my ears.
Yes, none of the device in the market is available to provide a comprehensive assessment for SQ. This is a far-cry goal that I wish can be achieved some day. I was specifically referring to "cable" if you read my post carefully. Here is one example.
"...Ask manufacturers to demonstrate what the benefits they advertise. They say they lower noise? Ask them to show before and after measurements..."
I have not come across any cable manufacturer provides tech. measurements for their products so far even upon request. In the listening test section, he also mentioned:
"...I could not detect a difference between the two in this limited testing. Mind you, there was more air when listening to the Wind. But then my wife who was in the kitchen informed me that the dogs had left the patio door open and whether I was OK if she closed it. Once she did, the air factor disappeared.
It’s interesting how photography reviewers are diversifying into audio. I think this is partly because photography has been through an explosion in technology in the past fifteen years, but the pace of innovation has very significantly slackened off. In addition, the industry has consolidated so, in the aggregate, there is a lot less product to review. Obviously, there’s much more diversity in the audio world.
Ken Rockwell’s site has become much more dominated by advertorial in recent years.
More truth than not in Ken’s article. Hit home more than a little….despite the OP’s mishandling of it’s introduction to these hallowed forums. I have to admit that I am a bit melancholic upon reflection of my audio odyssey. More often than not, I believe many of us loose site of what is, or at least should be, at the core of our obsession…the music!
JackHiFi guy, the only problem with this review of the deck is that he never bothered to listen to it LOL what a joke this review is so it could measure great and sound like crap.
JackHifiguy who cares what the measurements are the most important thing is how it sounds you could have the best measurements and still sound like crap.
This is his intro @audioman58, you may be off bass with your sonic bliss comment.
I'm a music lover and former musician, broadcast and recording engineer. I was earning money in audio engineering and selling my own original music recordings long before I made money in photography. I thank God I'm not an audiophile; those weirdos hate music and only love playing with their stereo equipment.
My grandma was Henry Steinway's personal secretary from 1942-1973, and my parents are accomplished musical performers who met in a chorus. I've been designing my own recording equipment since the third grade, and been training and performing music since the fourth grade.
From what I see hear ,is this Rockwell person to be totally Ignorant of the Sonic bliss that music brinks to many 1,000s of Audiophiles world wide, with Audiophiles many times it takes some trial and error to get the acoustics and system synergies right to Taylor to their exact personal audio taste ,that is half the quest ,to get as close to the live musical event as possible.
to imply someone is going to spend 3x more for their cables then equipment is just plain mindless. Most Audiophiles delegate a specific amount say 25% on speakers ,20% on cables the rest on a front end ,and electronics, depending too on budget. These that scoff at Audiophiles need to get a life ,
It is like those who think car collectors is a waste of time when saying it’s nothing more then just transportation to get from point A to B. Just ignore these mindless rants!!
I have another hobby in addition to audio, and am a member of another forum on which I participate in discourse regarding that hobby. One thing I appreciate about that forum is that new members who start trollish threads or engage in disruptive, toxic behavior are summarily banned.
I don’t actually consider myself to be an audiophile. I do however, consider the op to be an indecorous churl.
@jackhifiguyYour profile says that you have been a member here since March 2, 2022. That is a little over 1 1/2 months. You have also participated here very little:
I would suggested that you haven’t been here long enough to know what’s up or down or anything about anyone here. You come out firing and make these accusations when you are a rank newbie here. I suggest you take your hands off the keyboard for a while and just read. Although applied to this computer forum, my father once told me good advice, which I feel is applicable here: “Better to be thought a fool, than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.”
I cannot believe anyone responded to this amateur troll bait. 41 responses in this discussion and the OP hasn't responded to a single comment. Feeding trolls just encourages them to post this kind of crap.
Audio science is COMPLEX...And science is not reducible to technological play and tools...
Measures of piece of gear with tools dont tell all the story...
correlation with acoustic experiments are necessary...
Audio science need tools and educated ears....
Separating ears and tools is not very wise....You cannot study ears without measures and you cannot study gear without ears....
I am flabbergasted to be in the obligation of saying this common place fact to gear brandname subjective fetichist and to obsessive objective measuring fetichist ...
Gear focussing obsession is less important than acoustic and psycho-acoustic science...
Honestly, I can see why people post challenges to Audiogoners. First, non-technical, many posts are about promoting products without providing technical specs and measurements. If a cable is capable of making significant sonic improvements, it got to be measurable. ASR fills some of those gaps but, rather being praised for what he has done for the community, Audiogoners diss/discredit him and insist measurements are nonsense and only their ears can be trusted. These anti-scientific arguments will only earn nothing but heavy critics. Of course, if you got disposable money, spend it without hesitation and it is absolutely none of our business. But making defensive arguments against science is just not beneficial to the community.
Audiophile success must be based on acoustic learning not on the gear...
if someone know what he is doing , he can create great sound experience with ANY relatively good gear at ANY price level in ANY room...
Focus on exlusive gear listening, or focus on gear evaluation only by some set of measures for comparison , can be legitimate concern and they are yes, but are meaningless without personal control on some acoustical correlative aspect of the experience...
Good sound dont cost big money necessarily , but it cost time and thinking yes...
Ken Rockwell sells himself and want click baits not knowledge in audio first and last...Provocative tone is a sign of ignorance or/and sometimes great litterature nothing else.....
I used to read Ken Rockwell's reviews on camera bodies and lenses, I think he did a pretty good job there. (I have not read his site in many years though, so don't know what he's up to nowdays.)
However, picturing audiophiles as people who buy 20K$ cables for 1K$ amplifiers is the equivalent of picturing photographers as kooks buying multi K$ optics for disposable cameras. Need not say more on that matter and the distorted optics implied....
Despite the fun caricatures often painted of audiophiles one thing is true. Every audiophile (I know of) is emotionally heavily attached to his stereo equipment, or in other words, to the way his stereo equipment portrays sound and music. As a result they can be (and are) often quite abrasive and intolerant of folks who prefer sound portrayed through different means. This more often than not ends up in verbal abuse on forums.
I'd say regardless of how how audiophiles express themselves, every audiophile feels PASSIONATELY about sound and music. Those with more experience are able to express themselves as adults, being respecful of their fellow human beings, and while others care more about their own love of gear than about experiencing the rest of the world.
Let's suck it up. It's life. This happens everywhere, is not limited to audiophiles.
Just look at the camera / optics world. That world also has their hardcore fans, and we can mock them or not. I decide not to mock, and allow them to be passionate about what matters to them. One aspect or passion or pursuit might be meaningless to you, yet it means a lot to another human being..... this is the cornerstone of all human experience, and the driving force behind art, diversity, and discovery.
unless you listened to both, without the knowledge of which one you were listening to at any point in time...
Blind testing is a failed concept. Long term evaluation is the gold standard in equipment review. Lots of hours, lots of different music, many attempts at optimization. Any short-term test is prone to error vs a complete and full evaluation.
Price has nothing to do with performance, sound quality, build quality, design, etc.
I have mentioned this before, we have a listening room in Northern New Jersey. Please feel free to bring your $720 DAC over to see if you can hear a difference, or anything else you feel you would like to see if you can hear any differences.
At the end of the day I fall back on Hans Beekhuyzen's closing remark on all his YouTube reviews, "And whatever you do, enjoy the music". If you have a small circle of audiophiles (by which I mean folks who love music, love to actively listen, enjoy finding equipment that suits their room, budget, and preferences) with whom you can share tunes, ideas, and have a love for the hobby (or whatever you call it), then ignore the areas that are way beyond your budget, interest, or in my case, ears. I've learned a lot from friends and a few YouTube folks that aren't shilling and want to help. Some drive Fords, Chevys, Toyotas, Mercedes, Lincolns, Audis, and Bentleys. So find whatever you can afford and enjoy! And yes, there are many "interesting" folks in these forums. Don't let them bring you down!
He must be provocative and stay a bit provocative...
i was an audiophile myself till few months ago...
Why?
Because i dreamed to own a system with a minimal sound quality ..
But with no MONEY...
I choose a basic relatively good one and investigated slowly how to implement an optimal working for this system... I will not repeat here what i did...
The main part was simple experiments in acoustic among other simple experiments ...
Suffice to say that i am very happy now ...The audiophile normal stage is behind me and music here forever with a minamal satisfying quality superior in my room to my 8 headphones.....
Then there exist an audiophile stage in any musical life, the question is how to pass this necessary stage and integrate his lessons with success... Audiophilia correspond to a STAGE in life and is not only a STATE of being it is not only an obsessive hobby, it can and must be a learning experience......
Some buy and plug because they have the money to do it and they upgrade... Some buy and plug and forget it because they dont have the time, the room or the patience to do what must be done to exit the obsession for good sound and pass through it with REAL acoustic learning...
All people want a good sound...
Then characterizing all audiophiles to be only of one species : deluded one is only that a provocation...it is not a quality attached to some consumers zombies only, it is a normal stage of variable time lenght in the life of someone listening music...
Some provocation are creative , i take what you speak about this way...
Other provocations are only negative stirring of the pot with closed mind indiscriminate attack to sell something here or in another forums ...
I prefered listening basic experiments in acoustic instead of focusing on the GEAR brand name and design , this was an opening of the eyes... The best design are too costly for me anyway but it is easy to afford nowadays relatively good one at relatively low price...
Minimal mechanical control of vibrations and some control to decrease the noise floor of the house, acoustic treatment and control, all that is enough to reach a MINIMAL treshold of satisfaction...
This treshold exist and is easy to be evaluated by many acoustical criteria...
It is a relative treshold but it exist and this is all and the only message i can communicate in this site...
If someone ignorant and not crafty like me can do it anyone can... 😁😊
But it takes times and basic elementary studies for acoustic experiments...we must dare to experiment for sure...It takes time, i could do it because i am retired...And the other bad news it take me a dedicated room... But it is possible to do some thing in a living room for sure...
Then all "audiophiles" are not gear fetichist....Some pass the stage and the test...
Listening must be LEARNED , nevermind if you are an audiophile, an acoustician or a musician or an engineer...
Being audiophile is not a hobby FOR LIFE , it was one limited in time for me, it is indeed a normal stage in the life of any musical lover...Using this label to insult people is only most of the times a way to demonstrate our own acoustic ignorance...This is my experience...
You will not like the rest of the article Mahgister though perhaps there is some truth. He did get off the rails a bit and made a comparison that I found rather offensive and I will not repeat here as it showed rather poor judgment on his part.
An audiophile will waste days comparing the sound of power cords or different kinds of solder, but won’t even notice that his speakers are out-of-phase. An audiophile never enjoys music; he only listens to the sound of audio equipment.
You will not like the rest of the article Mahgister though perhaps there is some truth. He did get off the rails a bit and made a comparison that I found rather offensive and I will not repeat here as it showed rather poor judgment on his part.
An audiophile will waste days comparing the sound of power cords or different kinds of solder, but won't even notice that his speakers are out-of-phase. An audiophile never enjoys music; he only listens to the sound of audio equipment.
@jackhifiguy, it is good form to provide a link to material you reference:
I’m about as "kooky" as they come, proud of it! Call me what you may, but it’s whatever floats your boat and makes you happy. I will say that I don’t buy things that cost outrageous amounts of money, as for one, I do not have that kind of money, secondly, I like to find the underdogs so to speak, that perform well above their price point. However, I will also say that I’m not shopping at the local best buy for my stuff. I feel what I do own is pretty respectable equipment that was not exactly cheap to maybe a more reasonable or frugal person. Tannoy, Sugden, Naim, Cyrus, Ear, Avid, Music Hall, Graham Slee, AKG, Shure, Sennheiser, Musical Fidelity, Wharfedale, Martin Logan, Aiwa, Marantz, Cambridge Audio, Pro-Ject, Chord, Atlas, Audioquest, Ecosse, HifiMan, Sony, Ortofon, Goldring, Hana, Technics, Tavish Design, Rothwell, Border Patrol, Stein, Ringmat, Jensen, Atacama, Butcherblock Acoustics, Isanoe, Vibrapod, Blutac, Furman, Fostex, Beyerdynamics, Audio Technica, Denon (103), Record Doctor, Disc Washer, Vinyl Revival ( I'm sure I'm forgetting some) are just some of the brands I’m using currently. It is my one and only hobby and it makes me content. You would hate to see what I’ve paid for some of the records I own 😳 lol....
@russ69, then similarly, how can you tell that a $20,000 cable improves the sound over a $100 cable, unless you listened to both, without the knowledge of which one you were listening to at any point in time.
I work on developing technology for batteries. Myself and my competitors have access to almost any equipment we want due to how big the $ prize is. Anytime we have a positive improvement, no matter the quality of our equipment or how sure we are we did not make a mistake, we still repeat the experiment several times, preferably with independent teams, just to be sure.
It's just a hobby, but would it not be prudent to assume we could be mistaken before we assume with limited information we are absolutely correct?
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