Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy
"Audiophiles are Snobs" Youtube features an idiot! He states, with no equivocation, that $5,000 and $10,000 speakers sound equally good and a $500 and $5,000 integrated amp sound equally good. He is either deaf or a liar or both!
There is a site filled with posters like him called Audio Science Review. If a reasonable person posts, they immediately tear him down, using selected words and/or sentences from the reasonable poster as100% proof that the audiophile is dumb and stupid with his money. They also occasionally state that the high end audio equipment/cable/tweak sellers are criminals who commit fraud on the public. They often state that if something scientifically measures better, then it sounds better. They give no credence to unmeasurable sound factors like PRAT and Ambiance. Some of the posters music choices range from rap to hip hop and anything pop oriented created in the past from 1995.
Have any of audiogon (or any other reasonable audio forum site) posters encountered this horrible group of miscreants?
However anyone who is thinking about purchasing equipment based on an ASR recommendation should really beware.
It should go without saying that buying any audio equipment based on any third party recommendation, without first listening in one's room with one's equipment is fraught with problems and a crap shoot.
At least with ASR's objective review, you are shown if the item is properly engineered and constructed, performs as it should, and meets the claims of the manufacturer. I have seen time and time again reviews of products on ASR that fail at these basic fundamentals. In that regard, it serves a useful and legitimate purpose.
I personally don't see how ASR is different from any review site. They're all equally problematic. I take personal offense with ASR for their lazily written reviews and mean community.
My stance is that nothing beats experiencing the gear in person. Many reviewers lust over bright/revealing speakers and headphones. If that's not to your taste, you shall experience buyer's remorse sooner or later.
And like I said before, ASR created some kind of fog in my head with amplifiers. ASR is heavily biased towards Topping/Sabaj/SMSL amplifiers at the expense of your usual A/B amplifiers. Maybe it's a price issue. Maybe ASR is so hung up on SINAD and price that budget A/B amplifiers out of their radar.
I do not care what he reads or does not read. However anyone who is thinking about purchasing equipment based on an ASR recommendation should really beware.
A $21,000 system can sound as good as a $165,000 system.
That's not the same as saying that any $21,000 system sounds as good as a $165,000 system.
A $200 system might sounds as good or better to someone as a $200,000 system. There is no accounting for taste. That's why comments like this:
Youtube features an idiot! He states, with no equivocation, that $5,000 and $10,000 speakers sound equally good and a $500 and $5,000 integrated amp sound equally good. He is either deaf or a liar or both!
"ASR is mainly an engineering forum in my eyes, discussions of build quality and measurements." Herein lies one problem, Matt. Amir does not look at build quality in terms of longevity. If you look at ASR over the last few weeks you will note that a number of Topping purchasers are complaining about the build quality. Amir has washed his hands of this whole business and has come up with all sorts of mealy mouthed excuses. A reviewer needs to look at all aspects of a product.
@twoleftearsI have an ASR amp and phonostage, please don’t confuse those with Audio Science Review, I am not a zealot!
My very first tweak was about 1967 when I used a friends portable record player and taped a quarter to the stylus end of the tonearm. I was like, wow! I told my friend and he said that it didn’t make a difference. I wonder if ASR could do a measurement review of that?
I don't intend to view ASR any longer as the members are generally mean, nasty and stupid/uneducated.
I find that description applicable to plenty of other forums as well. If you even hint at how measurements can serve a useful purpose on this site, you will get the same mean, nasty, uneducated response.
I didn’t intend on having a political argument, but yes there are multiple "scientific" analysis that come to differing conclusions on these topics. I’ll cite Sweden’s Covid response and the doomsday claims made in the 1970s and 80s that we were all in peril because of ( the scientific fact) of global cooling.
Arrogance=ASR members (generally). I noted the two members who either end conversations or are ridiculed. I was thrown out because I had unsupported statements, indicated my attachment to the live music performance community and their derision of anything more expensive than they could accept as better than cheap equivalent gear. I opened my conversation on the snake oil forum after someone posted that the Audiodesk CD shaper was snake oil. Ok, I mentioned that I had purchased one for $150 back in 2006 and tried it, found it made little difference compared to destatisizing my CD prior to play and can now sell it for $1000 or more. Just for trying it, I was branded a lunatic who wastes money. It went downhill from there. Mentioning that I preferred the SR Atmosphere X Euphoria digital cable, well, that was too much, the ghouls came out.
Note that the after the MattHooper post on amp stand isolation, the posters call him nuts and crazy. I cannot view the site with Chrome anymore as I have been blocked so this information was made possible by viewing ASR on Edge.
I don't intend to view ASR any longer as the members are generally mean, nasty and stupid/uneducated. I'm glad I began this forum. It's been a pleasure hearing from fellow audiophiles and music lovers, whatever your preference for sound reproduction and musical tastes.
So you don't believe that isolating contagion can blunt it? You don't believe in climate change? OK... well... lol. How about evolution? ... Well, in that case, you certainly would not be interested in science; I understand.... beyond that, I don't know what else to say.
had to laugh at the irony of the title of this thread. Anyone that spends any time at all at ASR would know that ASR has nothing to say about the "sound" of equipment- they are all about objective performance.
This is true to an extent. If a component like a DAC, amplifier, cable etc.. excluding speakers has a " sound" then it’s not high fidelity or was purpose built.
That’s a good point.
The sound of equipment must be the sound of added distortion.
Therefore the measurement of distortion is the yardstick by which products are usually designed and compared.
Less is always better if we want to remain faithful to the original signal.
[If not, then there’s always DSP for those who want to correct perceived equipment/room/recording anomalies or perhaps they might simply prefer a particular type of distortion].
It’s surely no coincidence that when distortion is low that even tube and transistor amps begin to sound indistinguishable.
Ditto for everything else too.
Of course you have to always factor in the limits of human hearing, otherwise we’d be forevermore trying to get down to infinitely zero distortion.
Then there’s the fact that our hearing is more sensitive in the midrange, so distortion is particularly unwanted there.
All of this this suggests that as replay equipment improves there must also be a general historical convergence of the sound that it makes, which is exactly where ASR comes in.
Some products will be assessed as having an exceptionally good measured performance, and some not so exceptional.
And as anyone familiar with the site will know, all of this is usually indicated by the corresponding posture of the residential panther.
From a personal perspective; a friend of mine drank the Kool-Aid. He told me all about ASR when I bought a tweak and told him about the differences I was hearing. Of course, I wasn't really hearing a difference, I was just imagining things in view of the fact that he knew from reported measurements, that the tweak I had purchased is totally bogus. And please let me clarify, this is a device that he has never listened to. I don't mind dissenting opinion but I was basically being told that I'm full of s###. This is arrogance that I have trouble tolerating, friend or not.
Not sure who the "we" you refer to is comprised of but from the title of this thread and the numerous nutty replies it has generated, as well as the incessant bickering on this site over matters of taste, it is clear your "we" is in the distinct minority.
We have been saying this all along and it took you over 300 posts to figure this out.
Your opinion will differ from mine and that is life. Use measurements as one of the qualifying nodes. What you like and enjoy is the final measure.
If you are the smartest guy in the room, leave the room.
The only basis on which one can logically, rationally, universally, compare audio components is on the basis of their subjective performance, subject to the simple equation above, yet think about the wasted time and energy devoted to arguing opinion on this and other audio boards...it's insane. If you don't care how well your audio components perform objectively and want to use solely your own ears to make your decisions, great! Have at it! If you find value in knowing your components are as accurate as possible to the recording, great! Have at it! If you want to use the info from measurements as an aid in selecting components and then use your ears as the final arbiter, great! Have at it! Whatever makes you happy, have at it! We should all have the freedom to choose without the incessant and idiotic arguing.
Indeed... High fidelty is signal in x gain = signal out. "Sound" is what happens between one's ears and brain. We each have our own interpretation of our perceptions. It's idiocy to argue about how things sound, which whatever sounds better, etc., all of which are based on our own, personal perceptions. There are no "right" opinions, only different. It literally is "all in one's head"...The only basis on which one can logically, rationally, universally, compare audio components is on the basis of their subjective performance, subject to the simple equation above, yet think about the wasted time and energy devoted to arguing opinion on this and other audio boards...it's insane. If you don't care how well your audio components perform objectively and want to use solely your own ears to make your decisions, great! Have at it! If you find value in knowing your components are as accurate as possible to the recording, great! Have at it! If you want to use the info from measurements as an aid in selecting components and then use your ears as the final arbiter, great! Have at it! Whatever makes you happy, have at it! We should all have the freedom to choose without the incessant and idiotic arguing.
had to laugh at the irony of the title of this thread. Anyone that spends any time at all at ASR would know that ASR has nothing to say about the "sound" of equipment- they are all about objective performance.
This is true to an extent. If a component like a DAC, amplifier, cable etc.. excluding speakers has a " sound" then it's not high fidelity or was purpose built.
I had to laugh at the irony of the title of this thread. Anyone that spends any time at all at ASR would know that ASR has nothing to say about the "sound" of equipment- they are all about objective performance.
Is this the same science that brought us Covid lockdowns and climate change extinction? On the Internet and mass media, science is whatever those in power say it is.
Start with double blind auditioning of equipment and then find a set of test parameters that explain the auditioning results. After this, you might have some basis for testing the same class of equipment.
@jtgofishSadly, I can't even say that ASR does a decent job at covering low budget amplifiers. ASR just does their usual benchmarking and you're lucky if some member does a comparison between an Infineon chip amp and a Texas Instruments chip amp for example. So you'll be even more confused about amps from reading the ASR forums. So intuitively you'll want to buy the latest offerings from SMSL, Topping or Sabaj. Which one is better? Nobody can give you a straight answer. Some of these amps approach 300€. And for that money you could buy a Cambridge Audio AXA25 (new). But ASR does a poor job at covering budget AB amplifiers. So nobody can tell you whether you should buy a cheap AB amp or class D chip amp. You only have a "SINAD" score to compare the amps.
Well ASR probably does a decent job of covering reasonable performing low budget components.But they seem to be a bit obsessed with the concept that new technology has to be best because it might measure well.Like the Purifu Class D amps for example.When a very affordable gainclone type chip amp which is not new technology probably sounds better.And also arguably some of the older Hypex Class D.
@mattw73 "With ASR they are based on science, and if you don’t agree with how they do things or their findings you will have to prove it by their standards or you won’t change many minds."
Nicely said. But "science" in this context is a position of authority with very little self-criticism or curiosity. It is biased science. The research has already been published decades ago. Floyd Toole comes to mind. The conversation is framed in a way where you have to challenge the existing dogma (Floyd Toole et al...) with solid evidence. Practically nobody has the credentials to challenge that dogma and still be taken seriously. This is why ASR has the highest authority (in their minds) when it comes to audio. In other words "trust the science".
And I know that I will probably be diverging the conversation towards the meaning of "science". And that is futile. I'm merely pointing the finger at the bias of ASR. Science, a.k.a. objectivity is not immune to bias. This is how you get under ASR's skin.
And you can disagree with ASR, but you cannot express your disagreement with ASR on the ASR forums without risking a ban. You can disagree with ASR on other message boards.
@mikepowellaudioThe specs are definitely a distraction but I have to give credit to ASR for shining the light on those dirt cheap class D amps with Infineon and Texas Instruments amplifier chips. They sound fantastic to me. But I don't have the highest expectations and YMMV.
So if you view ASR as a site which focuses on entry-level Hi-fi it definitely has a place.
I am a member at ASR, as well as many other, along with numerous YouTube "Hi-Fi" subscriptions. All of them have their fanboys that will defend their favorite forum or YouTuber as if it is the greatest. ASR is mainly an engineering forum in my eyes, discussions of build quality and measurements. If a product measures with lots of distortion they are going to have words about it, even if the distortion is inaudible..which they will normally make the reader aware of this distinction. Most of their types of reviews are about taking a signal from the beginning of a product to the end and focusing if the signal stayed transparent or degraded along the way. How it sounds is not their main focus, that’s for you to determine is how I take it.
If you want to talk about how buttery your midrange sounds it’s not the place...but there are a hundred other forums that would love to hear about it...so go there when you want to share that type of information. I don’t post very often at ASR but I have learned a lot there and I’m glad a website like that exists. Do I make all my purchases because of high SINAD rating? No, but it helps as a starting point for certain types of gear I may be looking for. I have my own brain and I’m able to make my own decision on what sounds good to me without asking a hundred different people about what they thought about something I purchased.
I think people are wrong for trying to pigeonhole any members of ASR or any forum. With ASR they are based on science, and if you don’t agree with how they do things or their findings you will have to prove it by their standards or you won’t change many minds. If you don’t have the wits to do that then don’t bother..and I’d say don’t worry about it.
Take these measurement sites for what they are, there is much to be learned from them for the average Joe with no technical background. If a product you own measured poorly yet sounds good to you then so be it..no need to get upset about it. To me great measurements don’t always equate to great sound, but measurements do have meaning and can tell you a lot about what you are or are not hearing..although perception is a whole other can of worms.
Anyway, I just didn’t like the bashing of anyone that is a member of ASR..with that mindset you are no better than the people there or anywhere that do the same thing. I think if you were a regular at ASR and see some of the things discussed on a daily basis you might have a better understanding of what they are about, doesn’t mean you have to agree with everything, but if you want to speak up about it you should be prepared to prove it..and I think that is fair.
The information may be interesting to some, but it is USELESS as far as how realistic music reproduction will sound. The guys at ASR are not even Music people, they are uptight tweak heads that sit inside all day on test equipment. They have no place talking about music gear when they should be data analysts. They dont listen to music for Chrissakes... and talk smack about gear based on their own brand of measurement.
I know several KILLER pieces of gear they have trash talked that are some of the best out there. So clearly some of the gear that measures worst in their tests is some of the most endeared Audiophile pieces. Like the Truth Preamp someone mentioned. HIGH LEVEL AUDIOPHILE gear at a great price, and they trash talk it. Total Imbeciles. Like Jeff Rowland Model 125 Amplifier. Absolutely kills the $3500 competition, but they smack talk it. Ive personally sold 14 of them with a Bona Fide return policy, instead of returns the buyers buy a second piece and bridge them as monos. So take what they say as guys that know nothing about music and think good spec equals good sound (Read: FOOLS)
If they are so smart and good at what they do, why dont they have a room at the HiFi show to show us all how "Great" they are at picking gear ?? They cant because they are HORRIBLE at picking gear. Because they think measurement equals happiness... NOT.
Take for instance imaging. If you are half an Audiophile you know that some gear images and some does not. With the same signal.. No different. If you think the same measured signal on 2 pieces of gear means they will sound the same, you have been stupefied. (Made stupid)
If we follow the thought patterns of the ASR Clowns, then there would be a perfect mathematical calculation and resulting math for "great sound". Then everybody would just follow that equation and everything would sound great all the time. Well let me break fact down for the ASR Believers. There is NO mathematical formula for good sound. And its most certainly not the marketed audio spec. Spec gives you a rough approximation if this is the gear that will match what you have, not how good or bad it will sound.
If you think measurement can tell you how it sounds then tell me:
What measurement is used for depth of Soundstage ?
What measurement is used for Tonal Density ?
What measurement is used for level of Realism ?
What measurement is used for level of Emotional Engagement ?
What measurement is used to gauge Sonic Trigger of Analysis for recorded music ?
LOL< ASR is a ridiculous parody of what makes audiophiles chase their tail for eons. SPEC WAR.... holy buckets people... didnt you learn this with Contrast Ratio ?? Its meant to wrap you up into B.S. Spec that means NOTHING compared to listening.
Finally, this has NOTHING to do with COST of gear. Spec does NOT help you save money... LOL, that’s preposterous ! I would argue it helps you WASTE money since you’ll buy a good spec number and then teach yourself that the soul-less . sterile, perfect measured, glistening shiny music is in fact good sound... ITS NOT !! its the biggest LIE in HiFi... that good spec equals good sound... Wow....
Do you believe "if it cant be measured it does not exist" ? Then what about LOVE ??? (Dont say oxytocin.. get real)
Your post begs the question, why do you give a flying f$@* about what is going on on some audio site???? I would hope you have more important things to worry about.
I agree with you, just as the listening room is very important so is our hearing capability. I always used earplugs at loud live concerts and using noisy power tools. I don't listen above 100db to anything. I'm 66 and have been tested. I can still hear 16Khz tones. For everyone else, such as my wife who heard maybe 50 to 75 live rock concerts without hearing protection, she suffers from high frequency hearing loss (she says it hurts listening to such things as piccolos, flutes, coloratura sopranos). Having clean ears is an obvious benefit.
and it occurs to me... as long as we’re talking measurements...
It might be fun, and informative, to go to a high-end audiologist and get ears measured before spending money on anything else.
I’d wager most people think they can hear more objectively than they can... and many of us would benefit from the best of the new hearing aids, myself included. I spent the best money I’ve spent in the past two decades on hi-fi gear when I got high-end hearing aids to help correct for my high-frequency perception loss: measurements showed me what I needed, and it was addressable by custom eq-ing the aids, kinda like room correction for the ears. Suddenly all my gear sounds much better now, go figure, and as a bonus my burning need to "upgrade" stereo gear has considerably faded... although my enjoyment of different speakers has increased! Indeed, my entire experience of LIFE sounds much better now! And high-end hearing aids (think Widex Moment, or Phonak Audeo Paradise) that actually make a big difference both to hi-fi enjoyment AND to life outside hi-fi is a smarter spend than a new expensive amp that would make a smaller difference and also be restricted to the hi-fi realm without addressing the actual issue...
I mean, as long as we’re talking about measurements... set ego aside and make an audiologist appointment: do you dare to do it?
"The disservice this forum has for newbies is the mindset price determines ability which hasn’t been true for decades in this niche hobby. If there is one overall piece of advice I would take from ASR is test for yourself, don’t assume you’re immune from human bias and the biggest factor that determines what you hear is your speakers/room."
+ 100%
It’s funny on this forum that people would complain about ASR when many members here seem to believe that higher price means better listening experience, which most certainly has not been my experience over the years... I’d trust ASR over price any day of the week, particularly when it comes to items like cables, dacs, and even to some extent amps.
That said, you still gotta test things for yourself and I do not always concur with ASR’s conclusions especially when it comes to speakers since those are so personal and ear- and room- dependent, as djones51 points out.
There is no lack of choice when it comes to active studio monitor type speakers which have very good measurements.They can be quite easily engineered with internal digital crossovers and EQ to measure flat.And they have probably never been more affordable.Will you like the sound of them for every day domestic use?Probably not but they are accurate.
The Dutch and Dutch have superb measurements and apparently very pleasing sound. They would not be my choice though. And they are expensive. I'd rather have the Revel 228 or my Legacy Signature IIIs for very much less.
Basically, I am curious how you arrived on a purchase decision on the main element of the audio system, speakers.
3" soft dome mid driver and 12" bass and curiosity. I could tell by the design they would have a nice wide dispersion. I had no idea if I would like them but every so often I take a leap of faith.
How about this statement by MattHooper that ended the discussion on The Truth About Vinyl Records: Most of what people are doing on a forum like this has very little to do directly with the appreciation of music. Page upon page of discussion, and music rarely comes up. This place is devoted to The Gear.
How many musicians, or what percentage of music lovers, in the world concern themselves with SINAD ratings, or minute distortion levels in DACs or amps, or measuring cables, or learning all the technical information about electronics, speakers etc? Most "music lovers" don't need any of that stuff (much less The Most Accurate System Possible) in order to just listen to and enjoy music.
The person who has researched every nook and cranny about his hi-fi system, who has engaged in hours of careful set up, room measuring/digital EQ, getting subwoofer crossovers just right etc....that stuff is just another version of gear fetishism. It may be toward some goal, but most "music lovers" have no need for such gear fetishism to enjoy music. They would see it as having "very little to do with the ability to appreciate music."
@kokakolia Agree and that's why I posted my experience.
What is missing from ASR and discussions is used equipment. When I was younger, I sought out highly rated used equipment, especially speakers. I purchased Audionics, Acoustat X, 1+1 ad 2+2s, Martin Logan Monolith III, Legacy Focus and Signature IIIs, all at very low prices compared to their new equivalent. Why not a Yamaha C4 or 50 preamp, or Yamaha CR 620 receiver? Their equivalence is hard to match for $1000s.
I noticed at ASR that Martin, a major contributor consistently posts his love for and upgrades in the Von Schweikert speaker line. He purchases most of his equipment used and desires VS Ultra 11s as his ultimate speaker. He listens to classical music. He also powers his VS VR5s using a Topping amp which is a strange combo. He is an anomaly on ASR. Matthooper had a video on amp stands improving sound versus nothing. He was torn apart for wasting money and that his video was a sham of the difference. Typical ASR forum.
Taking a look at the Atalante 5 speakers really whetted by appetite. I can see them easily replacing my JBL 4319 monitors as I have the perfect stands for them. Now I have to wait and see if a retailer opens near me and for some reviews. Nice history behind them.
So I am curious, how did you buy your speakers without any measurements available? I am assuming not by listening as that is worthless to you, does not matter. Or you had measurements, but they were / are secret? Basically, I am curious how you arrived on a purchase decision on the main element of the audio system, speakers.
I sold the Dutch and Dutch, they are exceptional speakers but I prefer a wider dispersion speaker. I now have Atalante 5 speakers you won't find any measurements I'm aware of they are a relatively new company entirely designed and built in France. I use a cheap Topping DAC and a class D amplifier. REW for measurements and Roon PEQ filters, very few about 4 I believe. I don't have a dedicated room and minimal treatments.
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