Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

@juanmanuelfangioii So I shut you down an Chi Fi shouldn’t your woke butt be in bed? The dingos are circling your cabin @noske

That can only be construed as an online threat. AGon mods - who is this guy?

Guess you need to read the rules my friend. No vulgarity.

So I shut you down an Chi Fi shouldn’t your woke butt be in bed?  The dingos are circling your cabin @noske 

Perhaps we need a timeout here to assess just what we are debating as there seems to be a conflation of several issues here.

Some seem to object to reviews primarily based upon technical assessment. Even when that is clearly the stated intent of ASR.

Some seem to be attacking Amir's personal integrity. A little strange considering the fact that he has openly declared his previous affiliation with Harman Kardon.

Some seem to be challenging Amir's ability to carry out the measurements without providing any examples of how it could have been done better.

Some simply seem to regard the existence of ASR as a personal attack upon their own beliefs and systems.

So which is it to be?

Or are all science based review sites such as the following, the real problem here?

Archimago's Musings 

Audioholics

Erin's Audio Corner

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/

@juanmanuelfangioii Crikey that was a load of💩

Excuse me? You are too afraid to say the word despite being full of it on this thread?

Declare your interest in having ASR discredited. You are not a troll, just puerile and probably out of your depth on a forum seeking adult discussion...

Crikey that was a load of💩

@fleschler Here at Audiogon, @quiet can voice his opinion without posters casting negative aspersions on his character or person. We disagree with his statements presented as facts. However, he is a troll based on his recent Audiogon status and adamant disregard for alternative facts.

I’m pleaased that the collective we alllow @quiet his opinion - the tribe on this occasion are most generous.
In the absence of evidence provided by the owners of this forum, you have no basis upon which to judge the character of a person who posts here.

Your own character must be at issue first.  Should AG mods disagree, then let them say it.

@quiet is in opposition to Audiogon as I was to ASR. Definitely an ASR advocate member. Our members have the facts about Amir/ASR and his dealer relationship to his site and possibly to his testing results.

I own custom made tube equipment which has point to point wiring. The manufacturer has spent 40+ years in honing his soldering technique. I have proudly owned his equipment for nearly a quarter century. It would cost me maybe $50K to $100K to equal it or surpass it. ASR derides that it is tube and boutique manufactured. The ASR members who responded to me hate and despise me until I was thrown off. I didn’t realize how narrow was their scope of acceptance.

Here at Audiogon, @quiet can voice his opinion without posters casting negative aspersions on his character or person. We disagree with his statements presented as facts. However, he is a troll based on his recent Audiogon status and adamant disregard for alternative facts.

Crikey cricket's from kangaroo country. 

@noske it is used in all the trade rags all over the internet and is not a Derogatory Racist term. Only in your woke little mind. . Please ...such a prude. Are you living in a bubble . 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 WLB.

@kota1 Now imagine an "open minded" poster goes their [sic] and posts valid metrics that don’t support Amir.

Please do so.

edit - I just saw the previous post after posting that request.

Since when has a poster using the derogatory and racist word/phrase/description "Chi-fi" been an acceptable contributor to AudioGon?

@kota1 +10 ASR is a scam of an audio website. Fools are soon fleeced for slanted biased opinions and data  based on what Amir can sell them. Chi-Fi all day and not the top end stuff.

@rtorchia you said
Anyhow, I hope readers of this thread will approach ASR with an open mind and draw their own conclusions. Ours is a great hobby and there’s plenty of room for different perspectives.

ASR is a pay to play website. The members proudly display their "donor" badges like medals. They are even ranked by how much scratch they cough up. Now imagine an "open minded" poster goes their and posts valid metrics that don’t support Amir. ASR can’t let their cash flow source know that the what they bought and paid for (which they proudly display) is nothing more than one opinion of many, many, many which are very different. Ask those members to think for themselves, listen to new equipment in their own room, send it back if it don’t cut it and make a decision? Without ASR to tell them what to do? oh, the horror. Try posting anything like that and you get instant ban, no rhyme or reason other than to keep the paying members isolated and on the kool aid of Amir wagon train.

@juanmanuelfangioii I will but not until he finished his yard work, does his homework, takes out the garbage and flosses his braces.

@ghasley that is great could yo@quiet over to my house I have leafs that need raking. 

@juanmanuelfangioii indeed. I could do it if I had no other choice…but luckily that isn’t the case. I just wish @quiet would finish cutting my lawn prior to engaging in an online flame war with the adults. 

@ghasley I would live with EarPod and a phone. 

ASR wouldnt be a thing here if they didn’t send their junior water boys over to poke the bear, especially if the bear would just yawn and carry on.

ASR has a purpose though. If I lost everything in a natural disaster or economic calamity and if I had been uninsured and if I had not been financially prudent throughout my life and if I had no other options, I might see what ASR recommended to hold me over for a few months until I got back on my feet.

He pushes his line of Topping products and disses well respected honest manufacturers with his flawed and smoke n mirrors test methods

So it is scientific class warfare. The “have nots” vs the “haves”

Really what he is doing is validating to his base that shopping at Walmart is okay. And that is fine but do not attack me for wanting to buy from a manufacturer that makes their DAC in Canada and it cost $10K and yes it sounds better than that $1000 DAC from China.

Amir is catering to his customer base.

@quiet When I read this topic and all the posts, it reminds me of arguments between theists and atheists.

To an outsider, perhaps.  In reality it is all prompted by an increase in scientific and  technical awareness thanks to ASR and a consequent rapidly diminishing appetite for uber expensive gear.  

Join the dots as to what motivation the ASR detractors real agenda is.  I don't think the most vocal posters are doing their cause much good, and in fact is probably encouraging many people reading this to check out ASR for themselves.

The law of unintended consequences.

What esoteric components has Amir really tested, nothing high end.

Djones51 is exactly right in his assessment of ASR aficionados posted above. My experiences with them have always been very positive. We can debate the relative value of science versus subjectivity endlessly but if people are happy with their components it’s a moot discussion and purely abstract.

But even ASR detractors here will have to admit that Amir”s analysis of manufacturer craftsmanship is extremely insightful and valuable to potential purchasers. You can’t argue with the guy when he shows photos of improperly wired connections, slovenly soldering, faulty grounding, cheap materials, etc. There’s nothing abstract about that. Do you want to pay a king’s ransom to some esoteric company for a poorly made component? Consumers deserve to know what’s going on inside that box.

Anyhow, I hope readers of this thread will approach ASR with an open mind and draw their own conclusions. Ours is a great hobby and there’s plenty of room for different perspectives. 

Quiet you said-"

"And proudly, because we all know that saying about opinions, everyone has one. They are pretty much worthless. ASR is quite happy to hear about listening tests, as long as they are only listening tests. It is not a very high bar. Perhaps for the people here it is too high a bar, but not for people that care about sound."

ASR is certainly not happy to hear about listening tests.I was permanently banned for daring to bring up the years of level matched unsighted group tests including listening and comprehensive measurements /reviews by panels of experienced listeners carried out by HiFi Choice magazine.Which is the largest data base of such informaiton available and which consistently reported significant differences between the sound of all classes of components and speakers and which showed a weak correlation between how things measured and how they sounded.So if you report anything that does not align with the pathetically small samples of blind tests ASR bases its narrative on including a quite ancient comparison of SS amps using a very odd speaker with a very abnormal impedance response you will be deleted.

Furthermore when the moderator/gatekeepers of this narrative disallow experience based opinions they have no idea of the level of expertise of the poster.They might be vastly experienced designers who have built highly successful businesses and be highly respected experts on how to make things that sound good.People like Nelson Pass and Herve Deletraz and FM Acoustics for example who have long held the opinion that a lot more than good measurements goes into creating good sound .These are amplifiers and preamps used by some of the world’s best composers and musicians.Not just some ’crazy deluded audiophiles"

The lack of respect and misplaced arrogance is mind boggling.But I guess a simplistic /black and white unsophisticated mindset goes hand in hand with an authoritarian mindset.

" I expect you know nothing about the failure rates of almost any audio equipment."

So the "quiet one" seems to think a 39% failure rate is acceptable for the PA5 amp. Wow.Of course John Yang only appears when he can criticise another company's products.

For a guy who goes by the handle, quiet, he can talk the leg off a chair. 

He owns the best test equipment money can buy.

Was that after it was pointed out some time ago that the test equipment he used (at the time) was no where near the cost of the one John Atkinson uses or any of the ones at the time that cost way more than this?

All the best,
Nonoise

@quiet why would I have any test equipment?

I am not the unqualified person doing online audio reviews. 
 

Hey Amir is calling you home. 🦑 

@quiet ,

Large audio manufacturers are not trying to make the best products. They are trying to make the best products at a given cost target.

Exactly what I wanted to tell you. Everyone on ASR shops at Walmart. Nothing wrong with that. But if some of us here want to shop at a boutique or specialized store, please don't tell us that Walmart is good enough. I probably can go to Nordstorm, but will avoid Saks, maybe because it is beyond my pay grade. Nothing to be ashamed about that. But at least don't say that the grapes are sour.

@kota1 ,

Point noted. I saw that too and hinted on the previous post.

@quiet 

That's why transistor amplifiers have been trying to emulate the tube sound since day one. 

Speakers change timing?  Or are you saying something else changes timing. Digital audio is accurate to a nanosecond, vinyl 10's of nanoseconds, phase in speakers uSeconds. Are you telling me that the pace and rhythm of the music is changed by speakers? You realize that is that logical?

Qiuet,Speakers certainly influence the way we hear timing.Especially multi ways where time alignment of the drivers is hard to get right.It sounds slightly out of time because it is.Some designers like Duntech went to a lot of  trouble with stepped baffles and crossover design to ensure  time alignment.Other speakers like Tannoy dual concentrics have the benefit of physical time alignment .Rise time and impulse response  measurements reflect this time alignment.A great many speakers have quite poor time alignment because the acoustic centres of the drivers are out of alignment.Add to that other factors like phase response anomalies due to reverse phase leakage from ports.

@quiet, I gotta call you on BS. Everyone here needs to know that the only thread you have ever posted in is this one and it looks like you just joined today.

To legit members, just ignore this guy, total troll.

but large audio manufacturers respect his results.

Walmart is also large. Does not mean they make the best products.

but I doubt the people here have the humility to accept they know far less than they think they do.

And you are showing humility by stating that you know more than them? You joined this forum to tell the folks about this? Interesting!

@quiet, now you are insulting the audiogon community??? compuserve? Really? Dude, if this community is not your thing, all good. If you want to participate, all good. Just show some respect. You have been in ASR way to much, that rude denigration thing may work there but it don’t serve the best interest of members here.

@quiet, do you want real "science"? You can find peer reviewed journals for that, NP. I'll post real links to real scientific journals, not the mumbo jumbo of a biased audio dealer (his words tell you he is a dealer and to read in as much bias as you want, not mine). 

Are you Amirs BFF, a fanboy, what? Why are you insulting @juanmanuelfangioii ? 

@quiet Good bye 😘 Amir is calling you home.

Get your CC out. Drink the Kool-aid.

@quiet, this thread IS a good debate. No one flamed any one, tolerance of viewpoints are accepted, what is the problem? Is it ... you don’t agree? Amir dug this hole himself, you don’t need to give him a ladder, NP. This isn’t boxing, the only "corners" are in your head.

Simple is better for audio, the more complex the worse the sound.

All praise the great Amir and pass the collection basket.

$150k in test equipment he clearly is not qualified to use.

Enjoy the noise in the data. 
 

Is "atdavid" back or is that Amir?

Anyway it looks like we have an escapee from the asylum who joined here to attempt to refute the irrefutable.

Yup. Typical ASR militia contingent. Involuntary celibate angry young dudes in their thirties, still living in their mom’s basement 

quiet:

"Odds are they will have issues. They seemed to have a SPDIF issue, was resolved. Not many other issues. Not defending them, but you are just spouting off with nothing to back up your position."

It is amazing how few people can read or comprehend posts. I really fear for the state of literacy when I read posts like this.

Anyway it looks like we have an escapee from the asylum who joined here to attempt to refute the irrefutable.

@quiet do mine

Point to point wired analog equipment can far outlast and has been proven to outlast wave soldered circuit boards.