Are You Happy With Your Phono Preamp?

Several years back the handmade NVO all tubed unit was all the rage yes I bought one and love it. They just released an updated version

https://www.monoandstereo.com/2022/06/new-nvo-spa-one-se-phono-preamplifier.html

Might be worth looking into. I use it with my SM Surrusso cartridge loaded at 500 ohms

RADA Precious phono is a contender too. Discussed on a forum, HERE , copper version is in the price range...NVO Spa is mentioned in the thread. just an fyi

Disclosure: I represent RADA

I was thrilled when I upgraded to a VAC Renaissance SE phono stage ~ 4 years ago. It made vinyl a more more engaging, beautiful experience. My prior phono was a Rogue Ares Magnum - good for the money, but the rest of my system (especially table & cartridge) had well outpaced it, and I felt the 4x more expensive VAC actually gave a good return-on-investment. As good as a $3K phono stage can be, you’re definitely leaving musical enjoyment "on the table" versus higher tier stages IMO. I even tried the Herron VTPH-2A to see if I could "downgrade" from the VAC - no dice. It handily beat the Ares, though! 

Not out of dissatisfaction with the VAC, just curious to try something new, a few months ago I picked up a factory-refurbished ARC Phono 3SE. It’s phenomenal. I also have a Ref 6 preamp, and that pairing is immaculate. Highly recommended! I still really like (and am keeping) the VAC, and it performs particularly well in a full VAC pre/power stack (with stock tubes - too much rolling can mess with the synergy, as I’ve had to learn a few times), but the Ref 3SE has become my primary go-to phono.

Ask an ARC dealer about the CPO (certified pre-owned) and FRU (factory refurbished) units, and whether they have a Ref 3 or 3 SE available. They come with warranty. I am not a dealer and receive no incentive for this :)

Your table/cart is excellent, and I think like I was you're well positioned to reap the benefits of an amazing phono stage. 

Yes, I think your system would benefit from a better phono stage. I have experience with Soundsmith cartridges and I think the ARC 3SE is the best match of the ones you mentioned but the Boulder is also a great unit.

@chilli42 No question I had the PS audio and it is just ok and agree that you are missing some of the dynamics and air. I now have the Modwright PH9.0x with some Siemens E188CC/7308 and it is my end game. You have some great choices out there but consider the Modwright. Happy Listening 

Yes, I have a Audio Reserch Ref 3. I could not be happier. It really mates well with my ARC REF 6SE. I have had ARC phonostages since the ARC PH 2 was new.

My last generation system had a Pass 350x amp and a Sim Moon DAC. The positive changes in my system were so fundamentally profound when I swapped the amp for the ARC REF 160m and again to the ARC REF CD9 DAC. The whole system took on a natural musicality and overall sonic character that is absolutely magical. The amazing bonus has been my analog and digital end sound the same (you have to have the right cartridge of course). So, I no longer need to keep thinking… wish I was listening to analog when listening to streaming. I can’t tell the difference. They both sound fantastic.

I can’t understate the synergy of all ARC together. It really brings home these guys know what they are doing in crafting the sound at all levels and nuance to capure the musical essence… and in each component… like the Phonostage and DAC having the same character and resolution.

+1, @ghdprentice

On synergy between ARC 3 and Ref 6, it’s like two peas in a pod. I used to own all ARC system (Pre, DAC and AMP) there is this unmistakable synergy in a all ARC system, they should come with a warning: no outsiders allowed 🤣

Definitely - the ARC Ref 3 phono & 6 pre are a natural, beautiful match. Though I don't have an ARC amp, the ARC pre+phono pairing still shines here. 

Of the 3 non-ARC amps I have, the 2 more clean / neutral / fast / dynamic sounding amps (Phison A2.120 SE and Rogue Apollo Dark) are turning out to be the better complement with Ref 3SE & 6. The VAC 200iQ's have a more lush / romantic / rounded sonic spin, and it does some things incredibly well with the ARC stack, but the other amps feel like more natural partners here. 

Very happy with mine.

Hagerman Trumpet MC with an Sbooster BOTW P&P ECO MKII 15-16V separate power supply. Trumpet running with 4 Dynaco/Telefunken smooth plate 12ax7’s and 2 CBS Hytron 5814A black plates (12au7’s). Current main cart is a lo output Soundsmith MIMC Star. Not a bad setup for under 2K total (not including the cart).

Sounds very nice indeed. Very pleased.

Itching to try out a Benz MC for a change of pace.

The Soundsmith Hyperion appears to be a $8K cartridge. The $2500 PS Audio Stellar Phono may simply be outclassed at that pice gap. Maybe. Soundsmith has a MC phono stage. Perhaps it would mate well with the Hyperion?

I upgraded a couple of years ago.  I trialled in my system with small Boulder and van den Hul The Grail SB.  I have had ARC phono amps before but I didn't look at the Ref3 because it can't be run fully balanced.  Why not?  Earlier ARCs had fully balanced options like the PH2 that I had for many years.

The Boulder sounded grainy, HF heavy and digital to me and tiring to listen to.  Very disappointing after the widespread review praise.  This wasn't a very long term trial.

The vdH was very natural and detailed with a good soundstage.  In my view value beyond its price.  I am very happy with it.  This is a sleeper.  Get a listen.  I have no connection with vdH other than as a happy customer.

I have the McIntosh MP1100 and love it. Acquired it about a year ago. I have the VPI HW-40 and Ortofon Cadenza Black.

You have to take a big jump up to top the PS Audio Stellar.....I got rid of a Parasound JC 3+....for the lesser priced Stellar .....a much more dynamic and musical  sounding unit.

My experience with the PS Audio Stellar phono stage was not good.

See if you can audition a Zesto Audio Andrés Deluxe II phono stage, what I ended up with in my main stereo. Another fully balanced design.

With that said, I agree with several others that the best chance of success is to stay within the same brand. So an ARC model would be the first thing I would want to audition in your system. I use the Zesto Audio Leto Ultra II line stage with my Zesto phono stage for that same reason. Both are great separately but together, IMHO, they are unbeatable at that price point.

Best of luck.

I just got the Gold Note PH-10 and PSU-10 and I’m ecstatic. 

Yes the GN PH-10 with its matching ps is wonderful, make sure you give it at least 300 hrs of break-in. Enjoy

Nothing wrong with the PS Audio Steller phono pre. Your problem is, if you start making lateral moves (^^^^^^^) by the above suggestions, you’ll never stop chasing your tail, looking for that “next big thing dujour!!”

I recently bought a used Pass Labs XP 17 phonostage and I am absolutely delighted with it.  To begin with in my system it is stone silent even with my 106 dB sensitivity speakers.  Also its dynamics are exemplary, markedly improved over my previous Parasound JC3 Jr. which it replaced.  The XP 17 also seems to me to combine the best SQ characteristics of tube phonostages, which I have owned, and solid state.  I brings new realism to the sound of my LPs.  I highly recommend it.

My latest moves have been going from a parasound JC3 to ARC PH8 (cannot understate the level of improvement).  I was blown away.

Shortly after I traded the PH8 in on an ARC Ref Phono 3.  Again, I was absolutely stunned.  I didn't realize what I had been missing.  It seemed like the level of improvement was on the same magnitude as the JC3 to PH8 move (huge).

The rest of my system is ARC and I agree that there is great synergy there.

The PS Audio is a fine unit, but I wound up buying one of the last Herron VTPH-2A phono preamps.  Not even a touch of regret and I've had no desire to make a change there.  You might be able to find one used, but they don't come up often and they go really quick, and for good reason.

I’m completely satisfied with my Modwright 9.0X. With the right NOS tubes, it’s sound is in the stratosphere. Favorite tubes used in order of preference

1. Valvo or Philips miniwatt 6922 (PCC88 versions also excellent)

2. Matsushita/Mitsubishi 7dj8 

3. Amperex JAN USA 7308

4. Siemens 7308

5. Bel/India 6922 ( Philips)

6. Amperex PQ 7308 Holland ( great tone but smallish soundstage compared to the others)

Yes.  Modwright PH 150.  Above your price, but the 9X is supposed to be close to it in performance.  I too have an SME 20/2 and DV XV1S, but with SME arm.  I’m also using MWI amps.  It’s hard to argue against staying with the same brand for all amps.

I have the SME 10 tt, and the Icon ps 3 phono pre with HANA MC cart, Totally Happy.

@skucie 

Similar experience to me. For me it was a ARC PH3SE to a ARC PH8 and then to a ARC REF 3… each move was amazing… as in how can this make such a big difference. 
 

I am currently listening to Miles on my system… amazing.

I have a great phono stage (which you've probably never heard of)...yet it's out of the system in favor of what's in my Intergrated. Maybe not QUITE as good, but one less piece of clutter.

@cleeds 

It isn't FULLY balanced.  Whilst XLRs are an option for the output, the input is phono plugs only with two wires only.  There is no separate earth.  The earth must run on one or other of the two signal wires.

When I say fully balanced I don't mean artificially balanced using differential circuits.

Phono upgrades have been my favorite. Turntable isolation, phonostage and cartridge alignment have been my favorite upgrades. I landed on an Allnic H-3000 and it will probably be my last unless I get the chance to try Ypsilon. 

@cleeds 

Thank you.

But I still cannot see how it can be fully balanced if it has only phonos for inputs.  If phonos can be balanced, why does it need XLRs for outputs?  And why do ARC included XLRs in and out on the Ref pre-amps?  And on earlier phono amps like the PH2 that I used with pleasure for 20 years.

All fully balanced phono amps offer XLRs for both inputs and outputs.  And, as you say, the ARC Ref preamps (I use a Ref 6 and have favoured ARC preamps in the past) include XLRs for input and output that I use as I want to run fully balanced throughout.

But I still cannot see how it can be fully balanced if it has only phonos for inputs. If phonos can be balanced, why does it need XLRs for outputs? And why do ARC included XLRs in and out on the Ref pre-amps? And on earlier phono amps like the PH2 that I used with pleasure for 20 years.

@clearthinker  The tonearm cable from turntable has a separate grounding wire. Instead of duplicating the ground wire per L+R channels (dual 3-pin XLRs), here it’s common for both channels. That’s what the grounding lug next to the input RCAs is for. So IF they wired the tonearm RCAs with "+" and "-" balanced signals on pin and barrel, with ground on the separate grounding wire, and with the ARC taking it in this way (isolating the barrel signal carrying "-" from the chassis), it could be fully balanced over RCAs. There are enough separate conductors. BUT I have no idea if this is how it’s actually setup; it depends on your tonearm cable’s wiring, and I’m not sure this is even a good idea - exposing the "-" signal on an exposed RCA barrel kind of defeats the purpose of common mode noise rejection.

Even if it’s NOT a balanced signal coming in, there can still be benefit from using a differential input stage and running everything downstream fully balanced, IMO (like Stax headphone amps).

@mulveling 

Thank you for these elaborations.

I understand what you are saying, but that is exactly how tonearms were wired to amp inputs before there were balanced domestic set-ups e.g. my first stereo system in the mid 1960s (balanced started in studios where they had long inter-connect runs).  So what has changed to make that connection pattern balanced now?  Note in this set-up the earth is common to both channels, no separate earth for each.

So with that historic pre-balanced pattern I am inclined to think the ARC Ref 3 is not fully balanced..  I was involved a while back here in a thread where a piece was specced as 'fully balanced' but posts were saying it was not 'fully balanced'.  Some while back I had some leads made up with XLRs on one end to suit my tonearm output and phonos on the other to input to a phono only phono amp.  Since then I have decided not to go that way.

I don't pretend to know the answer, but in an environment where some say so -called fully balanced amps are not, I prefer to see XLRs on both sides.

By eliminating the XLRs they once put on their top phono amps ARC may have lost a sale here as I decided not to dem it.

I used the top Stax headphones and dedicated amp when I lived in an apartment from the mid 1990s.  They were awesome. Even if single ended - I have no idea with that five-way single connector.   I ought to get them out again and have a listen.

@cleeds 

I think we shall agree to differ.

@chilli42 spend now on software if you feel satisfied, looking for certainties of your doubts among the members of a forum is never a wise idea.

You'd need to see the schematic of one of these ARC pieces. It is possible to use RCA inputs into a balanced phono, and ARC may have done that on the premise that more than 90% of us end users will have RCAs at the ends of our phono cables.  In that case one phase can be on the center pin of the RCA and the other phase can be on the barrel that normally serves as signal ground.  If the cable uses two discrete but equal conductors for the center pins and the outer barrel, respectively, this would work OK. It is a bit odd that at the high price point they did not provide BOTH RCA and XLR inputs, if the internal circuit is balanced.

@clearthinker

Even if the tonearm input is single-ended, if the ARC has a differential input stage, then it can be balanced from the point of input through to its XLR outputs. But it would NOT be a balanced run from the cartridge to the ARC’s RCA inputs - so not able to be "fully balanced" from stylus tip to transducer / speaker. Yeah, really I wonder why they didn’t just include an extra set of XLR inputs. It seems like the table to phono stage interconnect would benefit the MOST from a balanced run!!

As an owner of the 3SE it actually does irk me that it lacks XLR ins, but my tonearm cables are already wired RCA and OMG the damn phono stage sounds so good as is! That said, I have had some noise issues with it from a plasma TV in another room that might well be eliminated with a balanced run from the turntable? These noise issues only appear in High gain mode. When I use Low gain mode with a SUT, they disappear.

And Stax headphones are still wonderful today. Big fan here :)

Sure am. 

@cleeds 

Perhaps a bit like the 'anticipator circuits' that Krell built from the late 1990s after they stopped selling pure Class A and claimed their Class AB amps were just like Class A.  I didn't believe that either. 

Yes I am very well aware of what ARC say. I was involved a couple of years back with a debate here about this statement by ARC when I was auditioning phono amps for my upgrade.  Some posters said it is not fully balanced.  Others accepted ARC's statement.  I concluded that it could not be certain the ARC Ref 3 is fully balanced.

I think both companies might be trying to blind us with their science.

clearthinker

I concluded that it could not be certain the ARC Ref 3 is fully balanced.

I’ve seen the schematic (of the Ref Phono 2SE), so I know it’s balanced. You’re obviously just going to cling to your notions, such as that differential circuits are "artificially balanced," and you’re free to believe as you wish.

Wouldn’t dream of parting with my Herron VTPH-2A, but I realize that doesn’t add much to this discussion given that Keith decided to ‘semi-retire’.   No complaints though, since it’s been in my system.  

P.S. before the VTPH-2A, while I didn’t have the Parasound JC3+, I did indeed upgrade from the JC3 Jr.   Big difference.  
 

I have been Wed to a selection of Pre Amp's' over the years and have had Honeymoon and Estranged Periods with the same devices, fortunately in the order of Bliss followed by Tribulation.

A few years back, I was caught on a DIY Build Thread for a Pass Design Pre Amp', which I was quite encouraging about and as a result was over time introduced to five build guises of it.

I have been impressed beyond the usual and one owner chose the Pre over a selection of Branded Pre's that were demonstrated with an intention to purchase. 

One the built models has been used in my system for over 18 Months and has made a extremely good impression to the point I have had two PCB 's produced to enable myself to have a 'commission built' Balanced Version of the design.

The difficult to comprehend part, is that without a Case, these can be produced for very fair money, even if a Commission Build is carried out.

How far a individual is wanting to go with the aesthetic, will add to the end cost.

I have seen one produced with repurposed Black Gate's with a Three Box Design inclusive of Circuitry and Source Selector Module, Standalone VC and Standalone Power Supply for less than £500. It was this model that shone above Branded Pre's during a comparison demonstration. A Basic Build that was also present, at the demonstration, proved that it was very close in comparison to a few quite expensive Pre's.

The Basic Pre Amp' was the one that the individual behind organising the demonstrations opted for, which has over a period of time had an extra couple of hundred extra spent on it, and with the improved parts on board, does punch well above its cost for the sum of parts. 

Disclaimer:

1, As for a Transparent Presentation, this Pre' falls into the category of being  epitome to this sonic trait.

2, If not a ee savvy individual, the Build is best to be produced/ sourced from a skilled in ee technician.       

I'm using an Allnic H8000. All I can say is holy cow!

 I have always wanted to hear music first produced from a cartridge (balanced output) to a phono amp that is fully balanced, to a balanced headphone amp, and finally into headphones wired for a balanced signal.

  I am happy and frustrated with my phono set up as is. It is mostly about the phono preamps that I have tried. I did build a John Broskie Aikido phono preamp and also an Aikido headphone amp that go extremely well together. Using ZMF headphones tops it all off, and I would change that. 

 Ok, so if I go the more common direction with this phono amp and connect it through my system, the sound is way off. So I leave it for the headphone system only.

 Different problem next, I also built a Pete Millett phono preamp (LCR design) and while I am impressed with its sound through my system, there is a bit of hum that I have yet to find. It is only in one channel. 

 Both of these phono preamps have their merits, but I do prefer the Aikido. 

Ralph from Atma-sphere should chime in about the details of ARC balanced. He has a superb understanding of balanced/differential circuits. 

After 8 years with an Allnic H-3000 mk2, I still have no real urge to upgrade. Prior to the Allnic, in reverse chronological order, were a Steelhead RC, K&K Maxxed Out, and a Trichord Delphini. Each was successively better but the Allnic is a solid cut above. It can be found on the used market at around $5-6K these days, which is a good deal for 2xMC, 2xMM of this quality

My Vac Phi Beta pre-amp, 11 years old and going strong, has a MC/MC phono section that is excellent, perhaps second only to the Allnic in my systems. I also have a Modwright Ph9.0, which waits in reserve and gets too little play. It’s quite good, as others have said, and a relative bargain at its price.

Despite my satisfaction with the Allnic and VAC, I am awfully tempted to borrow an Accuphase C-47 from my dealer, just to see how a highly-evolved SS phono stage stacks up. If I end up unable to live without it, I’d get an XLR version of a phono cable I have now, to see what the balanced fuss is about.

@chilli42

While researching phono stages looking for the best price/performance, on another’s  post, “PS Audio Stellar Phono (buy audio magic ultimate beeswax shd fuse $225- big improvements)”

I ended up with a used VDH GrailSE current phono stage