There are sooooo many variables involved in the home audio chain from an original recording to what ultimately goes into your ears it helps explain the incredible variety of sound reproduction equipment we have available to us. There simply is NO absolute "target" to hit in home audio. What counts is what combination of equipment, setup and room you can make sound satisfying for the majority of the music you like to play. Usually the fuller the range of your speakers, the closer they can play at realistic volumes without noticeable distortion and the less detrimental interference from your room environment the better. Enjoy!!
Are most recordings so bad it's not worth spending large on speakers?
In my interest in finding a speaker with a more lifelike sounding speaker than most monopole - e.g. (bipole, dipole, omnis) I emailed Morrison at Morrison Audio about his omni speakers, which for full range are around $14k. I explained I use my speakers with my TV, and to listen to folk, jazz, blues, some rock.
His response re my music choices, was, "The recordings are dreadful in terms of a lifelike reproduction. You needn’t spend so much on speakers. A monopole pattern is just fine since that is what the recordings are tailored for."
Comments?
His response re my music choices, was, "The recordings are dreadful in terms of a lifelike reproduction. You needn’t spend so much on speakers. A monopole pattern is just fine since that is what the recordings are tailored for."
Comments?
35 responses Add your response
I have questioned the original statement on and off for many years. There is no doubt that there is a ton of poorly recorded music out there. I wouldn't think that anyone would disagree with that. However, there is also a lot of very good to excellently recorded music as well. An example of what I think is poorly recorded and yet consists of great music......are the recordings of Adele ( a huge shame, IMHO). For some reason, her LP's sound like...c...p.Yet, there is no doubt that she has some great music. The question is do you want to listen to Adele on the BIG rig...I think not, which is a pity. BUT, if you own the BIG rig, then listening to Adele is going to allow you to hear these LP's in the best possible light....and maybe that is good enough...No? |
lifelike sounding speaker.. Watch this live recording video. These speakers' transparency and imaging are the best I have heard. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HyC96D3N5s |
cdc2 I believe we talked about Morrison loudspeakers. You asked me questions that I thought I answered to the best of my abilities and understanding of Morrison Models. Most of my experiences with the speakers are detailed here on AG, that's how cdc2 found me I'm familiar with the Hageman speakers and the design progress throughout the years and finally the Morrisons. My first pair were the Model 11. The price was affordable enough for me to take a chance. If it were not for the stellar performance of this small model 11 I would not have moved up to the 17, 19, 19.1 and the model 37 sub. After living with the Model 11 for a while I took a trip to Toronto and listened to the 17 in his living space - next purchase. On my second Morrison trip I stayed for 5 days and purchased 19. - fortunately I had accumulated the vacation time for these excursions. The "grip or stop and go action" of the two drivers working in concert emanating from a point-source arrangement create a very enjoyable illusion. I said this before, these speaker lack a review but you can talk to Morrison about that. I mentioned to cdc2 that I was looking to sell my unused pair of 19.1. After 2 years of living in our new home, my wife are going to move again to a two level walk-up.There definitely won't be any room for much, that's where the Model 11 comes in. But truly, I haven't advertised the Model 19.1 because, they're just that good. Conclusion: In this hobby I can't tell you how important it is that when you have the opportunity to hear before you purchase, take that opportunity. No one can hear for you, and all of the blog responses are opinions. Be your own Guru. Morrison and the late Richard Shahinian are about the illusion of live music. Give the speakers a listen because when they get reviewed he'll have to hire 2 people to keep up with the demand and the price will have to go up to pay them. |
I have been struck with how wonderfully some early recordings can be and how horrible a few later recordings are.It’s "Dynamic Range Compression" in the newer ones, read my last post as sample of the same album, new release vs original release. http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Sade&album=Diamond+Life Cheers George |
It's worth getting every detail possible out of every recording. How much it costs to do that is another story. The bottom line is these days, it need not cost much. The right pair of headphones with a common smartphone and good streaming software can do it. It’s also not expensive with speakers at least in smaller rooms. A pair of Vanatoo speakers get you most of the way there again even off a smartphone wireless connection, if you just use good quality streaming software. |
There are many good points made in this thread. I've been listening to music for too many years to count on systems that range from a KLH model 11 portable to a Yamaha/Klipsch system. Mostly, I've listened to a system that consisted of fairly inexpensive but excellent speakers and electronics (McIntosh, Beogram, Advent) So as you can see, I am not a high-end listener. That being said there are two distinct observations I can offer. First, room acoustics and speaker placement are probably the most important factors affecting the sound. More so than the speakers themselves. Second is the engineering of the recording. Maybe the order is incorrect. I have been struck with how wonderfully some early recordings can be and how horrible a few later recordings are. There is a mix in between. While it is possible to move speakers, it is impossible to improve on a poor recording. I know this doesn't offer anything different, but I would note that it is often the simple factor that can make the most difference. My question is whether one is listening to music or to the equipment? I feel there is a bottom line under which poor equipment interferes with the music. moving above that line can be wonderful to a point. Past that point, it becomes diminishing returns and emotionally borders on obsession. In the immortal words of Justin Wilson "the wine, you like is the wine that's right. |
Overly compressedThis is the key to bad sound, as there are no quite gaps/passages anymore between the softest notes and the loudness notes, they are all just given to you at the same level, which sounds LOUD! even when turned down. Your brain doesn’t get a chance to chill in-between the notes anymore. Go to the dynamic range website, and see the older first recorded version are less compressed that the later remasters! of the same album. Sade albums when looking at this remember green is good, the later stuff is compressed red, orange, or yellow http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Sade&album=Diamond+Life Cheers George |
A lot of "modern music" does sound exactly the way it's supposed to for the intended audience. Overly compressed and played through cheap earbuds. Reproducing some of the studio sound accurately isn't possible because there were no musicians or studio involved-it's done on a computer with synthesized files. So, yes, in those cases it doesn't matter what your gear is because sound quality was never a priority. |
There are some incredible recordings coming out these days, and they sound amazing on my system. There are a couple-three companies putting out amazing sounding LPs that blow me away on how lifelike they sound. Not sure about SACDs, but I hear they are great. Just don’t listen to them much. Don’t know Morrison Audio from any other dealer, but I’m very happy with the LPs I am purchasing these days. Some of my older LPs from 30-40 years ago admittedly don’t sound great. We all know that different releases sound different. Great speakers (you choose) make good recordings sound spectacular, IMHO. Enjoy the Music! There is so much great music out there. |
I think there are meaningful differences even with older or less than perfectly recorded albums/streams. You will still hear things more clearly. If you want to go from, say $7k to $14k for a pair of speakers is up to you. You should listen to some music you like and see if you think it is worth it. It is also probably a good idea to make sure the system as a whole is balanced. I would for example probably not buy $14k speakers to a $1k amp unless I intended to change that soon after. If you are going down in price you can also try some of the new active speakers like Dutch & Dutch or Kii Three that have almost everything in the speaker and just needs a streamer or similar to play. |
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This is nuts. But not for any of the reasons given so far. This is nuts because its not just the speakers, or any of the other stuff mentioned- its ALL of it. Everything matters. If its not worth having good speakers then its not worth having good speaker cables, amp, interconnects, turntable, cartridge, phono stage, power cables, power, and room. If its not worth having good speakers then you can just pack it all in right now. Not to mention, he's in the speaker business, telling you not to buy speakers. This Morrison sounds like the kind of guy makes you wonder what is wrong with audiophiles. |
The basic point is huge, and directionally correct. We worry about the smallest things in our hifi, but the big concerns are:
That said, rock and pop have usually been in a class by themselves (not in a good way). Since i’ve ranted before i’ll stay out of the particulars, but its pretty true. Exceptions exist! Blues, jazz, folk? I would disagree. Sorry for those subjected to the same examples in two days of the same week, but listen to Ella and Louis (Verve), Andre Previn and friends play West Side Story, or pretty much Any Verve, Mercury Living Presence or -- just to make a liar of me -- Pink Floyd. Superb. In general the more active production, the less of the original hall and timbre exists. Verve used two mikes, MLP three. They did minimal eq and almost no over-dubbing. Except maybe the cannons, and Bob explains his technique :-) I would also say that recordings are getting better. Digital facilities are finally, after three decades, a boon rather than a bane. The advent of personal fi means that AM car radios are not the assumed playback device. Many reasons that they might be expected to improve. of course, hearing impaired artists and engineers can still create bright results (and sound good to them!) Now monopoles bad? Shhhhhhh Don’t tell Wilson. |
Recording quality comes in all forms. Too many listeners I know, now and in the past, only listen to the better recordings ( Water Lily, Telarc, Sheffield, etc. just as a small example ). These are the folks that seem to spend the most on their systems, and yes, I am generalizing, as there are always exceptions. Although I enjoy these marvelous labels, and find my system to be " all that ", I want to, and do, enjoy my many average recordings. As long as I can " connect to the emotional content of the composers and players ", whether it be a Mozart piece, Jethro Tull, Miles, Billie Holiday, or Charlie Christian ( again, as examples ), I am involved, and transported, to a kind of facsimile of the performance. Depth, imaging and soundstaging, are without a question, characteristics of this playback, and excellent, mind you. But, it is the " unison ", the " togetherness ", the " performance ", the " musicianship ", is what brings me in, and, on pretty much every recording I own or listen to. It is this " connection " that seduces me......If Jagger and Richards are recognizable, in all of their glory ( I know I have repeated this on many of my posts, so sorry ), I am happy. Enjoy ! MrD. |
I think we are on the right path here. Phase is most important at cross over points particularly with sub woofers. I think otherwise frequency and amplitude as they relate to each other are critical in producing a refined image. It is true that 90% of what influences this interrelationship is the speaker and how it performs in a specific location in a room. To create an image it is critical that the sound from each speaker gets to your ears at exactly the same time at exactly the same volume using say a test signal from dead center stage. Now as the signal moves back and forth across the stage it's arrival time and volume change giving you it's position in space. I think that is something we can all agree on. Now, as I move a speaker in the room it's frequency response curve changes based on it's interaction with the room. The response of two identical speakers is never exactly the same because they can not occupy the same region in space. So, a pair of identical speakers can be 2-3 db different at any part of the response curve. So as an example take a violin. At 500 Hz it is say 2 dB to the left. At 1000Hz it is dead center then at 2000 Hz it is 3 dB to the right. You have different parts of the violins frequency response coming from different points of the stage blurring the image. It is not so important to have a flat frequency frequency response, It is important to have exactly the same frequency response. The only way I know of to achieve this is with high resolution room control. Other than this the only other issue that can confuse the image is early reflections that have to be minimized as much as is reasonable in any given room. You do not want a speaker blasting in all directions. The result of this is that you have more early reflections to deal with. You want to control the dispersion to create fewer early reflections. Obviously none of this has to do with amplification or signal sources. The image is embedded in the software but it is up to the speaker and room to interpret it correctly. |
cleeds, So school me (instead of childishly trolling me). Spell out for me, in any level of detail you choose, the impacts on phase and frequency response of a competently designed audio signal chain versus the impact on phase and frequency response of:
Take all the time you need. Hint though, the information for 1 is readily available on the web, 2 you may need to work for. |
atdavid
It is very hard to argue the signal chain, competently implemented, has noticeable impact on sound-stage and imaging when just moving your location a bit swamps out the effects.More illogic from atdavid. That something may be difficult for you to understand does not mean that it is "hard to argue." In this instance, your claim is rather like stating, "It's hard to argue we can put a man on the moon when I get stuck in traffic every day on my way to work." |
Most amplifiers are so flat as to say they are perfectly flat unless intended to not be. Digital sources are perfectly flat. Most analog sources strive for this. We can't change the recording, so we are stuck with that. Amplitude then is completely signal/volume dependent. Frequency accuracy by far dominated by room and speaker. Phase is again, if the signal chain is competently designed, typically orders of magnitude more influenced by the speaker (and room) than anything else. Accuracy of these things is again completely dominated by speaker and room. It is very hard to argue the signal chain, competently implemented, has noticeable impact on sound-stage and imaging when just moving your location a bit swamps out the effects. |
There are a few really bad recordings around, but certainly less than 5%. The rest range from good and fun to listen to exceptional and mind blowingly mesmerising through the right system. Buy good speakers but you need to ensure that your source is up to the task, because the quality of the source is exactly what you’ll hear through your new speakers. Finally soundstage and imaging are both in the brain, created by psychoacoustics based on the sounds reaching both ears. To get great imaging requires great accuracy of frequency, amplitude and phase (timing). If there are too many errors, your brain gets confused and can’t create the imaging you’re looking for. The errors are basically the sum of room, speaker, amplifier and source distortions of the recorded signal |
Replace "recordings" with "room acoustics" and I suddenly agree with Morrison. The question of spending however to my mind is a separate issue. The quality of components and design is not that well coupled to the finished product in my mind. I will say that it has been a VERY long time since I felt the super speakers were worthwhile. Lots of great < $20k speaker brands and makers out there. |
The first rule of Morrison Audio is you never talk about Morrison Audio! ... :-) I must say, he has rather strong opinions on audio, I would wholly agree with some, not at all with others. He has a single minded obsession to recreate a live performance aura, and to that end, he is not totally wrong that the vast majority of recordings are not recorded in a fashion to allow that, no matter how many times people here throw around terms like imaging and sound-stage. They are multi-miked, and mixed. What you hear is what the recording engineer wants you to hear, and any sense of sound- stage or "imaging" is a created illusion. He is somewhat correct that the types of speakers he sells and designs do not necessarily offer a benefit, since the illusion was not created with speakers of his design, they were created using monopole speakers. I think, though, he may be short-selling himself a bit as omnidirectional speakers really do appeal to some with any music content. I did want to clip one part from his website, as it is worth repeating (and given how often these terms are thrown around with just about any tweak). Sound-stage and image is almost exclusively speakers and room, which is why many who actively work with audio, raise an eyebrow at many a claim. Depth and Image February 20, 2015 |
When I think of lifelike, words like clarity and dynamics come to mind...and these words apply to the sound produced by a 10 piece brass band when you are 20' away and to a rock band in a club when you are 20' away. It seems to be pretty rare that the recording process of a live event can capture those dynamics and clarity without clipping and/or harshness. Therefore, whether the music is recorded from a live event or in the studio, the engineers are somewhat constrained with taking the input and making an output that sounds good...and won't have us jumping for the volume control like many of the Telarc recordings do....and how often do we want to actually listen to music at home at 100db which is often the level of live music when heard from 20' away. The compromise is to find speakers/electronics that sound both good and as close to live as possible....in your room and with your music choice. In that regard....there are lots of great choices and champions for each choice both here and on Audio Circle.....and you don't have to spend $14k...probably not even half that amount...and they will sound really good for both music and tv. |
