My point is exactly that. Value is unknown but prices are very high and everyone and their brother is selling.
Are cables really worth their high price because of their geometry?
They’re some pricey cables that have claim to fame because of the high tech geometry used in their cables.
Many of these cables have patents on specific geometry patterns used in their cables and use this as a reason their cables sound so good. For that reason, many say the reason their cables cost so much is they’re so complex . The man hours to make a pr results in their high price. That maybe true for some cables, but I’ve seen very pricey cables using the same geometry reason that look like a thin piece of wire rapped in outer jacket no thicker than a pencil. So,Is all this geometry just another way to justify their cost or is it true science that we are paying in the end?
Many of these cables have patents on specific geometry patterns used in their cables and use this as a reason their cables sound so good. For that reason, many say the reason their cables cost so much is they’re so complex . The man hours to make a pr results in their high price. That maybe true for some cables, but I’ve seen very pricey cables using the same geometry reason that look like a thin piece of wire rapped in outer jacket no thicker than a pencil. So,Is all this geometry just another way to justify their cost or is it true science that we are paying in the end?
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@mapman --- not sure I understand your point. People buy and sell stuff all the time. Look at other stuff here, not just cables. Cables are actually the easiest to sell / buy used, because they are very easy to pack and ship, and very cheap to ship. And yes, actual value is an unknown.... until one tries them in their own system. |
The problem there is if they are worth it then people would not be selling. But they are so apparently not. I imagine some take a beating Buying new then selling for a fraction of what is paid. That’s called not worth it in my book. More likely many are put up for sale because there is a lot of profit to be made selling since it’s largely a guessing game to start with so actual value is an unknown. Also regarding geometries please show where the relative merit or performance of different geometries is compared scientifically to establish the winners and losers and set some expectation regarding value |
mapman17,350 posts07-20-2020 1:09pmIf the cables are worth it why are there always so many for sale here? They should be hard to find like other high quality gear that is worth it. The 4 figure wires appear to be a dime a dozen.Simple: people like to experiment with cables, try for themselves, and the repeat. Much easier to deal with cables (i.e. shipping is easy) than with speakers, amps, etc. There are all kind of cables available in Audiogon for sale, for all budgets. Getting them used at a good price, helps a lot in terms of resale value when trying, and then reselling if it does not fit the bill (read: ears). Again, very simple. And everyone knows margins are high in cables, thus the value of used. So no secret there. |
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b4icu281 posts07-19-2020 10:35pmNO !!! The speaker cable industry, unfortunately, has no knowledge about the product they make. As so, they invented as many "Urban Legends" to Differentiate their product over others, or penetrate the market if new. The ONLY thing that matters is the cables resistance. Resistance is a result of length and thickness. It should be way lower than the Amp’s DF. That’s the only thing that matters. All other: Geometry (a new trend) Purity (OFC) Directional Cryo treatment Skin Effect Silver over Copper Structure Shielding and Snakes Oil :-) Are all in the same ridiculous BS, spread by the industry. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Ok then, what’s the best maestro? You said, what you said, NOW what should I use? Direction? Purity (OFC)? Silver over Copper? Shielding? Structure? (there’s a new one). Ridiculous BS. All other, than RESISTANCE is BS... Did I read you view correctly? WOW, are you in for learning curve, No, I don’t want to listen to your system...Thank you very much.. I have a good idea, where it’s gonna land in my SQ realm. LOL Kinda like comparing Chef Boyardee spaghetti in a can with MAMA’S home cooking... Laughable at best... Regards |
Building cables is just like everything else. I worry that by everything else people think I mean audio. But no. I mean everything else. Its all the same. Take cars. Pretty much all cars have four wheels. Nice and stable. They tend to all look the same. Many decades ago, not so much. All these wonderful shapes and sizes. When they started going faster though air resistance became a bigger factor and so now they are all starting to converge on aero shapes much like airplanes. That’s the majority of cars, the automotive equivalent of the radio or boom box, up to mid-fi. Hi-Fi is like F1. Look how many different designs there are in F1. There’s been ground effects, there’s been four front wheels! Today when you look close there’s no two alike even on the same grid, and Mercedes is able to adjust front geometry by pulling and pushing on the steering wheel. What is going on here is exactly the same thing as is going on with cables. Its always the same. At one level of performance the technology is pretty well ironed out. At the sharp end of the stick though are all these different people with all kinds of different ideas on how to advance and expand the performance envelope. Nobody knows what they’re doing. Oh we all like to think they do. We look at something like the SR71 and say see, they know, and for sure have even better stuff now. Forgetting all the failed designs before and since. Because pushing the performance envelope is driving into the unknown. How could anyone possibly know what they’re doing? That people can be so daft as to believe these stories boggles the mind. Especially since its not only the absolute finest cost no object performance where this applies. It applies equally well to the budget product. With SOTA the challenge is to make something better than anything ever before. With budget the challenge is to get that SOTA sound for cheap. Either way it involves trying new approaches. Either way its experimental. Either way the proof is in the pudding. So what do we do? Talk about geometry? How dumb can you get?!? Might as well be a bunch of us sitting around arguing about Red Bull winglets vs Ferrari whatever. Its all piffle. The proof is in the pudding. Cars must be raced. Cables must be listened to. All else is noise. |
Kimber Kable cables is a less complex braided geometry, but much better than a simple lamp cord - the "cable" is built by machine and they are pretty easy to add connectors, so they tend to be more affordable, but they are not as good as the others cables mentioned above. With all due respect, I disagree. It depends which Kimber Kable you look at. They have many cable lines, from very inexpensive to unaffordable (i.e. Naked series). Their "Select" tier is very, very good. It competes extremely well with other brands in your list. Also, even one series, have several models. For example, Select has typically three tiers, copper only, hybrid (silver + copper), and Silver only. Geometry is also different than other tiers down the lineup. |
Teo Audio avoided all the issues with geometry or lack of it, by going to a cable design that takes into account and utilizes a set of properties and base physics that is unique in the entire industry, and the entire world of all possible conductors -for that matter. We created a new divide, a new separator or sorting. On one side, is all possible cable geometries and types, and materials, companies, from Cardas to Belden, to whatever, you name it...all the many thousands of them, along with tens of thousands of design configurations and so on....... ..and then there is Teo Audio as the sole existing type, on the other. To clarify...When it comes to dealing with the fundamental physics of conductivity, there is all cable on one side, all conductors are there ..everything you know of, all of it, no matter who or what materials, and then there is Teo Audio Liquid metal, as the singular ’other’. Almost every single conceivable ’conductivity under high and complex signal delta’ problem you can imagine (which is what an audio signal is--it is the most brutally complex signal in the entire signal world, this audio signal thing--get educated about signal!), all banished in one fell swoop. Go ahead, ask a physicist. Ask a multi degree transmission line specialist/PHD about this, if you think any of this is exaggerated. Ask them to tear down what I'm saying here. Good luck with that. |
Winding machine in action. Lots of weaving, low price. https://reverb.com/ca/item/14408424-pine-tree-audio-6-foot-rainbow-ribbons-14awg-speaker-cables |
NO !!! The speaker cable industry, unfortunately, has no knowledge about the product they make. As so, they invented as many "Urban Legends" to Differentiate their product over others, or penetrate the market if new. The ONLY thing that matters is the cables resistance. Resistance is a result of length and thickness. It should be way lower than the Amp’s DF. That’s the only thing that matters. All other: Geometry (a new trend) Purity (OFC) Directional Cryo treatment Skin Effect Silver over Copper Structure Shielding and Snakes Oil :-) Are all in the same ridiculous BS, spread by the industry. |
@ hiendmmoe - The Geometry of a cable makes a significant difference in cable perofrmance... e.g.... In-Akustic cables have a simple geometry "conceptually", but building them is where it gets extremely tricky, with lots of custom parts and exceptional wire/insulation quality - and hand built, so their cost is high - But - they are exceptional cables Cardas - their top of the line speaker cable is extremely complex, the cable is built by machine, but the connectors are installed by hand, so their cost is high. But buyers should be aware that some TOTL Cardas speaker cables can cause issues with SOLID STATE amps because of their very high capacitance that can cause some amps to oscillate and cause internal damage. Nordost ribbon geometry is a custom built cable, made from extremely high quality wire and insulation, that has taken years of R&D, and hand assembled so their cost is high. BUT - they are one of the few cables to have very low capacitance AND inductance values and they perform exceptionally well KLE Innovations uses their proprietary formulations that use different conductor gauges and combinations for live and neutral (amongst other things) and are completely hand assembled. Not as expensive as some of the above, but very good performers Kimber Kable cables is a less complex braided geometry, but much better than a simple lamp cord - the "cable" is built by machine and they are pretty easy to add connectors, so they tend to be more affordable, but they are not as good as the others cables mentioned above. Some geometries are very basic and rely solely on conductor quality or using solid wire to improve sound quality. Combining wire quality, insulation quality and an effective geometry will result in a very good cable, but as you said most companies hide behind patents - so how can you tell? Companies that reveal their geometries are confident that they are pretty hard to replicate, and as such they are not giving away their competitive advantage by revealing how their cables are built - i.e.the geometry - these are the companies I would consider. So when selecting a cable, do the research into the geometry, conductor metallurgy and insulation. I would not consider a cable that does not show/mention the geometry employed Unfortunately, the world of cables is very complex and quality comes at a high price. Best practice - ask questions here or try to get loaners or audition in store - and trust your ears. My own quest for a quality cable prompted me to take the DIY route, so take a look at my web site - it might have some useful information http://image99.net/blog/ You’ll also see I’m pretty keen on specific connectors - so it’s not JUST the cables that make a difference Hope that helps - steve |
Douglas, so entirely not even close to true, much less relevant. Another attempt at setting your own standards for criteria, and if those criteria were met, you’d change them. As after as the Ops question, no idea about geometry, and I don’t bother reading all the marketing hype. I do as so many others do, listen and let my ears tell me what they hear. Are speaker cables overpriced, yes. I doubt those companies could show us that their costs and profit levels are equal to or less than the audio industry standards. Is what it is I suppose, so it’s up to each to decide what it’s worth to them in the end. |
You aren’t even beginning to assess a cable properly that is not used in a set as manufacturer intended. It takes having on hand two or three entire sets of cables to conduct a proper evaluation. Obviously, this is prohibitive for most audiophiles. Rather than say, I have ignorance on the topic, or I do not have experience in evaluating them properly, we have loudmouths and arrogant types who spew their opinions without knowledge. |
Yes these wires are very complex practically like spacecraft yet there are hundreds for sale on this site at any given time often costing more than much simpler devices like amps and speakers which are much easier to make and much harder to come by. I guess the wire makers got that very complicated and manually intensive process nailed. The process of selling overpriced overhyped wires that is. |
@hiendmmoe,I recently upgraded my cables to some 7X the price point. Was it worth it? Absolutely yes. The current cables that I have use a unique build that I have not seen elsewhere. I am stunned every time I listen to the music - because of how they get out of the way and let me hear so much more in a more musical way. Had I know that the cable made such a huge difference, I would have changed it a couple of years ago.While cable geometry makes a big difference, you also have to count 2 other things - your experience and affordability. When you experience something extraordinary, you are more than wiling to pay for it - if you can. So that goes with affordability. Would I have purchased the same cables if I found them out when I started out in his hobby - heck no - I could not have afforded it, even if I loved to have them in my system. Are there better cables than my current ones? Sure there maybe. If they are cheaper than mine then I can afford them. If they are pricier, them I would rather not think about them and enjoy my current system. |