I've read your posts with interest, although they can be repetitive. But I honestly don't understand why you rejoice in hearing the violinist foot tapping in the third row. Listening for that type of minutia is anathema to the enjoyment and glory of well reproduced music in your own environment. Of course, that's just my silly opinion. Hope you have a Happy Thanksgiving. Regards, barts |
@lordrootman Wrote:
I agree! Mike |
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@barts …”But I honestly don’t understand why you rejoice in hearing the violinist foot tapping in the third row.”
Perhaps you were lucky and quick and “got” the essence of music quickly. But, I am pretty sure for the majority of audiophiles early experiences with music influenced them. For me, mostly in the ‘70s. Really moved by the beat and rhythm and terrible sonic reproduction. Desiring kick drums to have greater impact… then being really impressed by being able to actually hear the lyrics of songs we knew for many years. Then to distinguish each of the Beatles voices. Decade by decade one becomes glued to what more can one hear with the next upgrade… slowly loosing track of the real musical essence. I listen to other’s high end system’s, and what dealers present. I was not alone. I am highly analytical… this is an easy route to take… and many have. I have heard so many detailed scraping systems that I find it hard to believe. If my posts are redundant… well, I am just reacting to the questions… so. I guess I must be consistent. |
Tony, I appreciate your affection, you follow me everywhere. When I say reference I don't mean Pass amps with some lower end Wilson speakers. Just because you have a good sound doesn't mean necessarily that it is a reference sound. There are preferences and subjective elements and there is also objectivity. Who has top or near top level Boulder, Gryphon or D'Agostino amplification? That's reference level SS amplification. And lets put them against same level Lamm VAC and CAT. Why would you go with those SSs instead of tubes, practical considerations aside ? They would never give you the midrange that those valve amplifiers would. |
OP writes: (A) There are preferences and subjective elements and there is also objectivity (B) Why would you go with those SSs instead of tubes, practical considerations aside ? They would never give you the midrange that those valve amplifiers would? I'm not sure whats being argued here in (A) with the reference to objectivity. The fallacious argument from authority statement in (B) appears to be implying that this completely subjective statement is objective. But perhaps I'm misinterpreting. Anyway, the term reference in a hi fi context is meaningless. It would appear from the post above that the OP sees "reference" as the best available. If that is the case then there are legions of solid state amplifiers which qualify including Pass XS, MBL, Constellation etc, etc. The "why would anyone go with those SSs instead of tubes? conjures up the old Monty Python "what have the Romans ever done for us?" sketch - power output, dynamic range, S/N level, damping factor - and consistency where the sound doesn't change when you replace the output devices, are a few things that come to mind. |
A Reference or of the highest standards ,many of us cannot afford. you build your Reference Audio system as to the highest your budget will allow . the speakers by far are usually the most expensive , I see the front end Dac on par as importance for this s where all music starts and it’s signal purity, once compromised it cannot be made up for down stream ,, andyes all cables especially digital can make a big difference in resolution . you need 2 Quality Ethernet cables as well as usb , then a Quality Ethernet hub with a LPS power supply ,also your router very important if streaming linear Tube Technologies excellent LPS for $700 betters anything even at $1k and up to 8 amp, this LPS can be ordered up to 19-20 volts 8 amps and needed on the router ,all new ones are normally 12v around 4 amp, same with power cords , and system cables look for connectors Copper ,NotBrass ,3x better conductor Thst much less resistance sounds much better. |
When I say reference I don’t mean Pass amps with some lower end Wilson speakers. Just because you have a good sound doesn’t mean necessarily that it is a reference sound. There are preferences and subjective elements and there is also objectivity. Who has top or near top level Boulder, Gryphon or D’Agostino amplification? That’s reference level SS amplification. And lets put them against same level Lamm VAC and CAT. Why would you go with those SSs instead of tubes, practical considerations aside ? They would never give you the midrange that those valve amplifiers would.
@inna been there, done that. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/ying-and-yang-lamm-ml3-and-dartzeel-458.24906/ 5 years ago i bought a set of Lamm ML3 mono blocks, and a friend loaned me a set of VAC Statement 450 mono blocks to compare to my darTZeel 458 solid state mono blocks in my system. i had these three sets of top level amplifiers together in my system for 4 months. it’s 1433 posts long talking about this compare. short answer, i preferred and kept the darTZeel solid state, and then upgraded the 458’s to the 468’s. solid state ruled the day. i will also add that IMHO Boulder, Gryphon, D’Agustino would not likely have made the cut. those more mainstream solid state brands are not musical enough. the darTZeel result does not necessarily extend to other expensive solid state. advertising and presence in brick and mortar showrooms should not be required from a brand. darTZeel goes it’s own way. sounds like music, not tubes and not solid state. do i have a reference level system? fair question. my opinion is that if anyone has one, i have one. but that is for others to say. |
great videos ... Jay is generous and intelligent ... Tube and /or S.S. is an embeddings environment contextual choices as it must be ... The only thing i will claim : the room acoustic is way more important than the choice between tube or S.S. in all case ... I will not comment about Jay room because i am not there ... But it is certainly not my prefered room ... His microphone are very good though ... Thanks to him for his videos ... |
@kennyc + one million |
I think people will be divided on this. Really don't care what you like or think, I have what I have because it works for me. May not for you, and really don't care not here to jamb any topology down your throat like some here. I have Tubes, SS, Hybrid's and each has their strength and weakness, some more than others. Enjoy what you have and be glad you can. |
@ghdprentice damn dude, you made me have tube envy, just reading that. Lol : ) |
everything. i graduated from High School in 1969, so i’m first a 60’s and 70’s rock guy and do listen to that some. but i’ve grown over the last 30 years to love jazz and classical. and over time i now listen to 70% classical, 20% jazz. lots of string quartets, piano trios, solo piano, large orchestral. recently was on a Mahler kick. all types of jazz but love the golden age and like mono pressings too. my system can do full justice to large scale music. that’s where the tubes can’t compete with my darTZeel. they are not linear and can’t do scale without distortion. tube amplification can be excellent, but in direct compare to the darts their shortcomings are exposed. their non musical tubey-ness gets pushed at you. the dart’s just keep going. and the darTZeel 468’s are tonally dense and rich, great textures and flow. and a very smooth and extended top end. not like typical solid state. the darts are musically rich and supple. grain less and liquid. visitors to my room are not aware they are listening to solid state or tubes, there is no signature for either.....just.....music. i do lots of high rez streaming, have about 20 Tb of files, 4000 CD’s and SACD’s (now ripped to files), 12,000 records, and 250 reel to reel albums mostly 2 reels each. |
not all tube amps are created equal, and not all listeners have the same system aspirations, not all rooms are the same size, and not all speakers need the same power. so dismissing tubes for a reference system is not right either. if you consider an OTL circuit, then you are much more linear by eliminating the transformer. if you have a medium to small-ish sized room but love small combo jazz and small scale classical, then plenty of tube amps can be reference quality. if you use 105+ db efficient horns then all sorts of tube amps can be reference quality. so even with the theory of greater noise and greater distortion (a theory) tube amps can certainly be great. OTOH in a large room and expectations for full frequency and state of the art linearity on large scale music tube amps will struggle to keep up. could be done. OTOH with darTZeel i know it can be done and not have to live with solid state restrictions in musicality. |
Hmmmmm! Try to explain this to some of the best heavy hitters of amplifiers in the world (Boulder, Gryphon, Jeff Rowland CH Precision, Soulution, to name a few). Does this mean I don’t love tube amplifiers that I consider reference, no! I’ve owned some highly sought after tube gear as well as some popular ones over a long haul. I’ve also owned some of the brands mentioned above in solid state. I currently run Boulder and haven’t looked back. If you haven’t listened to any of the brands I’ve mentioned, you my friend needs to move out of the bottom of the basement. This is nothing new for solid state. Hell, even a fully restored Krell KRS200 big boy Pure Class A from the 80’s and some before that like Mark Levinson would wear that badge provided that you had enough juice in your home to drive them, lol. When it comes to reference in regards to SS, they’ve been doing this for 40 years or more. Like I said, “ you should get out more”. |
? I dunno. My main components are pretty old, but were pretty well reviewed back in the day. How's it sound compared to today's finer SS amps/preamps? Probably holds it's own without embarrassing itself. Works fine for me. Now, if you compared that to a system with Dan D'Agostino amplification and a DCS source, I would expect it to get smoked, but since I don't have that....I'm cool with calling it a "reference system". I can hear a difference when I change a source, a cable, a plug, whatever, so....good enough for me.
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OK,Let's think step by step, What is the reference system? It is the advanced system, right ? so OP want to ask Which is the advanced system,Tube or SS, right ? However, a lot of people use tube system, while a lot of people use SS system. When you listen more and more, you can simply figure out it is not advanced or not, not high or low. The sound come from tube is different from the sound coming from SS. When you think one of them gotten be more advanced than the other,there is endless argue about it. When you think they just different, choose what you like , there is not argue. and will have peace of mind and just turn yourself in the music.
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And tubes will continue to rule, no matter what some people think or want. With few exceptions, like large scale music in a big room with particular speakers. I will also note that I don't trust most people's objectivity or/and hearing. What I hear from many is - it is good because it is mine. Not to mention that few can afford million dollar set up, or even $200k one. This sucks, we all want reference level systems. |
Well no doubt if appearance ie size weight and cost are considered in identifying a “reference” system, the “best” will likely pretty much have to incorporate many tubes and be quite large heavy and impressive looking. The competition at the other end of the spectrum could be a tiny unassuming and spartan looking Class D amp from a number of high end makers.
So make sure the test to determine is a blind one. It could be a Samson versus Goliath scenario physically and we all know where any bias based on appearances would exist there. In fact to judge the biggest and most costly tube amps out there anything less than reference would be a major letdown. |
@helomech To funny. In the studio they use Tube Microphones, Tube Amplification and when they do not they use Tube emulators and EQ in the mixing process.
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