Anyone has a reference system where amplification is SS ?

The secret is to biamp your system. Use tubes for the upper drivers and solid state mega power for bass drivers.

This is a true reference system if done properly.

@emergingsoul

this will be a source of incoherence in a reference system, unless the signal for the solid state amp on the bottom octaves gets it’s signal from the speaker terminal of the higher octave speakers. the bass amp needs to be very neutral, and then mimic the presentation of the tube amp on top.

if you desire a reference system. in lesser systems, not critical. lots of people do this, of course. which does not change the reality of it's limitations.

BTW; this is exactly how my speakers work. my darTZeel amps are on my passive speaker towers, and my active bass towers get their signal from the speaker terminal of the passive towers. then if i use a tube amp, which i have done, the bass gets that character to sound ’of a piece’.

it all depends on your expectations for a seamless coherent presentation. when you push the system, every amp acts slightly differently. you need things to stay of a piece with appropriate balance and feel at all musical points.

the odds of happening to find a tube amp and solid state amp acting exactly the same no matter the SLP’s are very very remote. not saying impossible. improbable.

is this a tube verses solid state thread?

must be a slow day at work for the original poster. wants to watch a food fight.

When I say reference I don’t mean Pass amps with some lower end Wilson speakers. Just because you have a good sound doesn’t mean necessarily that it is a reference sound. There are preferences and subjective elements and there is also objectivity. Who has top or near top level Boulder, Gryphon or D’Agostino amplification? That’s reference level SS amplification. And lets put them against same level Lamm VAC and CAT. Why would you go with those SSs instead of tubes, practical considerations aside ? They would never give you the midrange that those valve amplifiers would.

@inna

been there, done that.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/ying-and-yang-lamm-ml3-and-dartzeel-458.24906/

5 years ago i bought a set of Lamm ML3 mono blocks, and a friend loaned me a set of VAC Statement 450 mono blocks to compare to my darTZeel 458 solid state mono blocks in my system. i had these three sets of top level amplifiers together in my system for 4 months.

it’s 1433 posts long talking about this compare. short answer, i preferred and kept the darTZeel solid state, and then upgraded the 458’s to the 468’s.

solid state ruled the day.

i will also add that IMHO Boulder, Gryphon, D’Agustino would not likely have made the cut. those more mainstream solid state brands are not musical enough. the darTZeel result does not necessarily extend to other expensive solid state. advertising and presence in brick and mortar showrooms should not be required from a brand. darTZeel goes it’s own way. sounds like music, not tubes and not solid state.

do i have a reference level system? fair question. my opinion is that if anyone has one, i have one. but that is for others to say.

What kind of music do you mostly listen to ?

@inna

everything. i graduated from High School in 1969, so i’m first a 60’s and 70’s rock guy and do listen to that some. but i’ve grown over the last 30 years to love jazz and classical. and over time i now listen to 70% classical, 20% jazz.

lots of string quartets, piano trios, solo piano, large orchestral. recently was on a Mahler kick. all types of jazz but love the golden age and like mono pressings too. my system can do full justice to large scale music. that’s where the tubes can’t compete with my darTZeel. they are not linear and can’t do scale without distortion. tube amplification can be excellent, but in direct compare to the darts their shortcomings are exposed. their non musical tubey-ness gets pushed at you. the dart’s just keep going. and the darTZeel 468’s are tonally dense and rich, great textures and flow. and a very smooth and extended top end. not like typical solid state. the darts are musically rich and supple. grain less and liquid.

visitors to my room are not aware they are listening to solid state or tubes, there is no signature for either.....just.....music.

i do lots of high rez streaming, have about 20 Tb of files, 4000 CD’s and SACD’s (now ripped to files), 12,000 records, and 250 reel to reel albums mostly 2 reels each.

Tubes = distortion + noise.

They do not belong in a reference system. 

@helomech 

not all tube amps are created equal, and not all listeners have the same system aspirations, not all rooms are the same size, and not all speakers need the same power. so dismissing tubes for a reference system is not right either.

if you consider an OTL circuit, then you are much more linear by eliminating the transformer. if you have a medium to small-ish sized room but love small combo jazz and small scale classical, then plenty of tube amps can be reference quality. if you use 105+ db efficient horns then all sorts of tube amps can be reference quality.

so even with the theory of greater noise and greater distortion (a theory) tube amps can certainly be great.

OTOH in a large room and expectations for full frequency and state of the art linearity on large scale music tube amps will struggle to keep up. could be done. OTOH with darTZeel i know it can be done and not have to live with solid state restrictions in musicality.

Can you do transistor rolling ?

@inna

some solid state allows for adjustment of negative feedback. the darts have zero negative feedback, and that matters a lot in it’s musical flow and lack of grain and lack of solid state dryness.

tube rolling has an upside, and also a degree of confusion as to what is correct, and the uneasy feeling never knowing when something is going to blow.....and not knowing if something is going 'off'. tubes are always changing to some degree.

transparent is not enough for a solid state amplifier, musically complete, grain less and flowing are the challenges. these are relative things. not absolutes.

however transparent does seem to satisfy many solid state amplifier owners.

it's about expectations. i'm a tube lover who owns solid state. i don't want to settle.

Mike, unless I missed it, you need a custom tube playback head outboard preamp for your Ampexes.

 

@inna

you missed it. :-)

done and done. both my Ampex ATR-102 decks have MR-70 Nuvistor tube preamps. both decks have direct out from the heads into the outboard preamps, one box per channel. the top pair for the 1/4" deck on the left, and the bottom pair for the 1/2" deck on the right. i have a switch behind to go back and forth. the decks and preamps are hot rodded. read the first post of the thread which describes the level of upgrades.

the MR 70 is a legendary late 60’s super deck. if you scroll down on this thread page you can read about it’s history.

here is the thread about it.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/ak-hot-rodded-ampex-atr-102s-w-mr-70-preamps-replaces-my-studers.36288/

here is a current picture with both decks and the -4- MR 70 hot rodded preamps on a rack between them. the MR 70’s surpass any newer custom output electronics.

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/ak-hot-rodded-ampex-atr-102s-w-mr-70-preamps-replaces-my-studers.36288/page-6#post-874901

as great as my -3- Studer A-820’s were with the King Cello preamps, this set-up is in another realm.

transparent is all of those things if those things are in the recording. Transparent means the output is audibly indistinguishable from the input other than the gain. If one wants some additional seasoning then euphonically colored amps are an option. But so are DSP simulators that do it better at a fraction of the cost with greater flexibility and the option to turn them off.

@scottwheel

no, transparent is not enough.

i respect that unless you directly compare various solid state amps in a revealing system you might assume ’transparent’ is enough, and that transparent assumes other musical attributes. unfortunately that is not the case.

to illustrate my point here is a review of a very respected solid state amp, scroll to the bottom of the page and read the conclusion (final 3 or 4 paragraphs).

https://www.stereophile.com/content/boulder-amplifiers-2150-monoblock-power-amplifier-page-2

>>>"By comparison, my reference monoblocks, darTZeel’s NHB-458s, don’t grip quite as tightly as the Boulders, nor do they achieve the 2150s’ levels of transparency and solidity. What they deliver so well, especially for solid-state amps, is music’s liquidity and natural flow—due to their more generous sustain. You can’t have everything."<<<

when we look for alternatives to tube amplifiers, it’s not trivial to retain musicality and flow. these attributes come from simple elegant low parts count circuits, zero negative feedback, and amazing build quality. solid state but not strangling the music. these things are not absolutes, but there are solid state amps that are more or less musical while also being transparent. in my experience darTZeel is the most musical solid state.....in the context of this thread it’s the best tube alternative.

do you think Boulder 2160 owners think their amps are not musical? no, but have they compared them to a more musical alternative in their system?

just my 2 cents. YMMV.

if the amp is transparent, which most modern SS amps are if they aren’t clipping then all of the musical attributes encoded in the audio signal will be passed through to the speakers. By definition that’s what transparent does.

@scottwheel

so you are an ’all modern solid state amps sound the same’ guy if they are not clipping? and that means they are transparent? so class A, class A/B. Class D. Global feedback? zero negative feedback? 50 pieces in the signal path? 10 pieces in the signal path? heavy protection circuits? not much protection circuits? heavy chassis? lightweight chassis? my 2 channel mono blocks? and my pair of 8 channel Home Theater amps?

all solid state. not clipping. all the same?

and let’s assume they are all driving a speaker with an appropriate load and impedance for the amplifier power. so we remove the speaker variable from the question. but might different amps sound different on different speakers? or would each amp sound the same assuming the power was sufficient?

just wanting to make sure i understand.

When audiophiles perceive audible differences where non exist in casual non level matched non time synchronized comparisons it isn’t due to a placebo effect. It is due to how we hear, process and remember sound. We can not effectively compare an aural memory to real time sound. So while it may seem the same as a placebo it is not. The aural memory is incomplete and was filtered by steered focus. 

@scottwheel 

so you are just a common run of the mill ASR troll. have a nice day.

ahha, Amir did load your lips. 20 year old hifi history. not quite what happened many many years ago. Amir drags this out from time to time. sigh.

is that the best you can do? you need to be a better troll. anything original from you yourself?