No, but I drive a 1996 Subaru
Acoustic treatment question: do you agree with Dennis Foley that $46k to $65k is required?
In a video from 1/29/2021 (yesterday) Dennis Foley, Acoustic Fields warns people about acoustic treatment budgets. He asserts in this video that treatment will likely require (summing up the transcript):
Low end treatment: $5-10k
Middle-high frequency: $1-1.5k
Diffusion: Walls $10-15k, Ceiling: $30, 40, 50k
https://youtu.be/6YnBn1maTTM?t=160
Ostensibly, this is done in the spirit of educating people who think they can do treatment for less than this.
People here have warned about some of his advice. Is this more troubling information or is he on target?
For those here who have treated their rooms to their own satisfaction, what do you think of his numbers?
124 responses Add your response
I was surprised by how expensive good treatments are. I went with Acoustical Systems Corp (ASC). I’m sure Acoustic Fields products are great too. To control costs, you can start by controlling base in the corners of your room, as well as the first side-wall reflection points (using a mirror to dial it in). I also like RPG Skyline diffusers for the center of your soundstage and ASC absorption panels on the wall behind your listening position. That will get you 80% there with money to spare for later.......ambiance via more side wall treatments and ceiling treatments. |
In my case, I spent $118K with Dennis for an unsatisfactory resulHave i read it correctly? 118,000 US dollars? If yes, this confirm my experience and conclusion with 2 years of experiments at almost NO cost, in my room 13x13 square with 81/2 feet height... Irregular topology and irregular geometry ....One of my speaker is even in the corner a few inches of the walls.... The other not.... The imaging is no more affected at all now.... The balance between my 2 speakers is perfect instead of that.... Any small room NEED treatment and controls, especially if you think it is good... 😁 Because people have no idea what is the S.Q. impact adition.... They are never experience it how could they imagined it? Acoustic retailer for reason of business economy must add customers, they dont need the time to cure a room, if this room is out of the ideal norm... My experience with small room is that they need special, specific, listening attentive care with attentive ears...No rule easy to go with mechanically will cure a difficult small room with a not ideal geometry, a not ideal topology and a varied acoustical complex content... You cannot replace EARS experiments with charcoal or any "magical" costly materials....That post confirm my point... But really you are unsatisfied after 118 k bucks? I am totally in heaven in 2 listening positions in my room at peanuts cost.... Am i deaf? No, the proof is there for me, acoustic controls and treatment need only careful listenings and incremental working.... It takes me 2 years of fun.....It is finished and i am stunned each day.... Trust your ears, keep the money, have fun..... |
The answer is, 'Possibly' - you can spend less and you can spend more. In my case, I spent $118K with Dennis for an unsatisfactory result. It really depends on the room, and how difficult the existing acoustics will be to treat and the capabilities of the designer. If your room is pretty decent already, you may not need much to put the finishing touches on it. If your room presents difficult acoustic challenges, the spend can go way up as does the risk of as positive outcome. |
Thanks @wwoodrum for your experiences. I have heard from several experienced people who added treatments early on only to find they didn't do anything. But, as you relate, adding more seemed to pull things into visible (or audible) range and then other work with diffusers, a bass array, etc. brought things home. But, at first, a lot of money for no results. @wspohn Yes, having that kind of help is invaluable! Good karma for you! |
It certainly doesn't have to cost that much to treat a room. I was lucky enough to have a friend whose profession is building home theatre spaces, and he owns many thousands of dollars worth of audio instrumentation and software and he was kind enough to help me set up my combination listening room/home theatre. I already had a false curved ceiling which helped on a couple of issues, and the one live wall made up of glass doors was happily handled by installing heavy optically opaque curtains which I needed for video anyway. Many of the other issues were dealt with inexpensively. For instance two and a bit walls lined floor to ceiling with shelves of vinyl LPs make a great diffuser (and no, I did not stow them with every other album pulled out or pushed in although it would theoretically have enhanced diffusion. Speaker set up was a mix of a ballpark area they needed to be in plus accurate measurement - me in a listening chair, him with a laser range finder to accurately position my chair and the speakers. Ditto for the four surround speakers and two subwoofers. Undesirable echos were dealt with by things as simple as laying an antique carpet on the too live wood flooring. |
I have been using GIK products and have made use of their free advice as well. My experience has been one of gradual improvement as opposed to an all-at-once treatment. I can say this: something is better than nothing and I haven’t found ‘too much’ yet, though I certainly believe it is possible. Once I put in bass traps and took care of direct reflections from walls and ceiling, I added diffusers towards the back of my listening room, which, given the other improvements I’d already enjoyed, seemed remarkable. The main thing here, if you’re not doing some kind of professional room sound analysis anyway, is to try to fix the biggest problems first, and only then go after those smaller issue that remain. I don’t think one needs to spend a fortune. |
A good room will need very little treatmentI am not by far an acoustician and i speak only from my experience in my room... The change induced by acoustic passive and active treatment and controls are so huge in SMALL room, that there exist probably no small room that will not benefit from them... The decisive point is what is a small room and a big one? Reverberation time flows are key... The reason why people think they dont need now treatment neither controls in their small " good" room is because they never lived the experience of total transformation of the S.Q.before in their audio live... If you have not live it you cannot imagine it....We are conditioned by the market to buy speakers and thinking they are good or bad in themselves by virtue of their design and this in ANY room...This is completely false... Speakers change dramatically in different room... I will repeat that give me almost any speaker i can make it sound great in a good room adapted to it... Give me the best speakers there is in a bad small untreated and uncontrolled room, they will sound bad or at best not very good.... THis is only my opinions after my limited but very real experience.... I dont think that any acoustician will contradict me.... |
16.5 lbs/sq. feet, yes they are heavy. Look really peaky though. Lots of absorption at 50Hz, lots at 250Hz. Not a lot anywhere else. Better hope you nodes are there or you may not get what you want: https://acousticfields.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ACDA-12.pdf |
@brownsfan I agree about the weirdness of "fiberglassophobia." For someone who is ostensibly a scientist and/or engineer, this scare tactic (which he dwells on) is very problematic. Clearly, if people believe him, they have to go with his (non-toxic) alternative which, by the way, is supposedly better acoustically as well. And, more profitable for him. At the end of the day, are his products effective? Are they better? Well, maybe, but either he is honestly misinformed about fiberglass (which speaks to a deficiency of knowledge) OR he is intentionally misinforming others to sell products. Either way, it has a bad odor. |
Not to derail the thread, but I too find Foley’s fiberglassophobia off putting and borderline ludicrous. Don’t get me started on perhaps well intentioned folks who invoke metaphysical concepts where they don’t belong, as seems to the the case in this instance. If it ain’t "all natural" or "organic" it is deadly, they seem to think. Never mind the fact that some of the most toxic substances known to man are natural products. Let’s go back to the good old preindustrial days, when people were really healthy as reflected in their average life span of 32 years. OK, I will get off my soap box. All that said, Foley’s use of activated carbon (charcoal) is really intriguing. I can imagine those traps could be quite good. The ACDA 12 has some good activity below 50 Hz where it is hard to find things that work. They are very expensive and no doubt quite heavy, so are they cost effective? I don’t know. |
Just a carpet? Um... https://musicstudiodiy.com/use-carpet-acoustic-treatment/ |
My last home had a concrete acoustic ceiling. No asbestos laden soft material. It was heavy and would require a rebuild of the entire ceiling to remove it. But why do that? That kind of ceiling makes for a great sounding room. It was 19 x 29. It was a den/living room that was my dedicated listening room. The issue: Stone and wood and one side wall and nothing but drywall on the other side wall. But it was a fixable problem. Sometimes what you are dealt with, by sheer luck, is a great sounding room. The bass response I got from a pair of salk Songtowers was simply evil...and not boomy at all...just deep and clear as sin. Then I moved. I think we gotta work with what we got. Each room has it's sonic signature..and is unique. Some just require a lot more work. |
Yes it's true. Asbestos miners working ten hour days breathing a gram per cubic meter asbestos dust develop lung disease in as little as 20 years. The microscopically infinitesimally immeasurably few bits of fibers you might inhale listening to music an hour or so a week is dead certain to give you cancer, and probably only in five or ten thousand years. The one thing this bozo is right about is no way you can put a panel on the wall for less than a grand. They can't be anyone else's panels, those guys don't even know about all these invisible astronomically non-existent non-risks. We cannot even begin to estimate the cost of room treatment until we know your net worth. And I know what you're thinking, but we already know your gullibility and susceptibility to BS is sky high, or you'd never watch these stupid videos. So all we need now is your money. |
I have watched maybe 10 of his vids. It was worth the time and provided food for thought. But he completely lost me when in the last one I watched he went off on the "industry" selling extremely harmful substances like fiberglass and Roksul. He was claiming that they are as harmful as asbestos. Went on to say that playing music would shake fibers loose (even if covered) and of course you would breath them. He stated that he uses granulated charcoal as a sound barrier between walls. I will admit if you are soundproofing his wall design did look very well thought out and of course uber $$$$. Regards, barts |
Dennis Foley runs a business. He has a business model and a target demographic for his clientele.. My entire system, including room treatments, is under 50K. On the whole, my system/room is to my ears the best I have ever personally heard, and I’ve auditioned systems that retailed for over 200K in rooms that were well set up and treated. He has some products that are very intriguing. I don’t discount him as a complete quack. I don’t agree with everything he says, but that doesn’t make him a charlatan. There can be a number of effective solutions to any problem. Some are more efficient and cost effective than others. GIK has a different model and different target clientele demographic than Foley does. They also have some worthwhile products, and I’ve got over 2K invested in GIK products. RealTraps falls somewhere in between GIK and Foley models. Their limp membrane traps are very good, and I have about 1.5K invested in them. I wish I had used more of them and fewer of the velocity traps sold by GIK. This stuff is not so much a buyer beware situation as it is a buyer be informed situation. These guys are going to sell you what they make. GIK won’t tell you when RealTraps makes a better product for your need. The buyer has to figure that out himself. Being ill informed and unwilling to learn about room acoustics and treatment designs is costly. As always, stupid is expensive. I know from experience! |
Without a purpose-built listening room it's unlikely most homes have a floating room with very good ratios and built with multi-layer, heavy, damped construction. My current listening room has those qualities and it still required 32 tuned Helmholtz resonators in the corners, broadband membrane traps against the front wall, RPG Diffractal arrays across most of the back wall, and 4" 703 clouds over about 80% of the ceiling and 70% of the side walls. That treatment takes into consideration that the low frequency modes will already be well spaced and the treatment only enhances what is already a very even room. What is required in a recording studio though is different from a listening room. A listening room has the benefit of fixed speaker position and listener. In a listening room as well, and as it suits personal preference, some reflections are a good thing to enhance sense of space that is often preferred over what can be a flat presentation from the recording. To that end, I would expect most people would not find ideal to have 70% of their side walls covered with thick absorption and probably not 80% of the ceiling, though you have not described the floors. Covering that much ceiling but leaving the floors "live" can create an unnatural presentation depending on the speakers. Your implementation of the 32 Helmholtz resonators really speaks to the alternate implementation of a bass array for controlling the lowest nodes. For most users and their rooms, when cost, looks, space, etc. is taken into account, a bass array will be a better, more cost effective implementation. |
I spoke with him once about my room - he basically said the dimensions and layout are both unfixable ("Don’t bother trying to fix it, buy a different house.").I am not an acoustician... BUT if i read this advise coming from an acoustician, i doubt a lot... "This is a Bad room sell your house" or next customer please! That gives me doubts.... No room is unfixable, some room are very difficult...Yes... My room is a 2 litlle rectangulars in a square central puzzle piece geometry, 13x 13 feet x 8 1/2 height , one of the speaker is almost glued in a corner the other not... 2 windows, one door... I succeed to compensate completely for the distortion of the soundstage caused by the very bad location of the speakers... The bass for a 7 inches drivers touch my stomach with punch....The highs are very good in the 2 positions of listenings...Timbre distinction is very good and vibraphone notes decay with changing colors hues is an experience to live.... All my gear are on my desk between the speakers, i succeed to relatively isolate them... My imaging is stellar in 2 listening positions, and the timbre natural in the 2 positions... The reason why some professional say this about "impossible" room to fix is simple: they work with standard regular methods, mostly some specific materials, applicable in most case to some degree and not in all case... They want to spare them the big trouble because it is one trouble... You cannot fix a difficult room with simple passive materials means only , even many simple one....it is not like reconstructing the room, it is a work piece by piece in the frequencies range with many devices to compensate.... It is not an easy job... More hours less money.... I spend 2 years with incremental experiments and UNORTHODOX devices to fix it, ( 3 different sets of Helmholtz resonators among others means ) i succeed, using my ears and remember that i optimized my room for 2 POSITIONS of listening not one.... I am in love with the 2 position, one is more detailed, the other more alive, but the 2 are almost perfect.... Impossible to chose.... I am not an acoustician at all.... I am ignorant in acoustic but less than some.... I just discovered that my ears are better acoustician than me.... I know nothing, i just try one step at a time.... I learn little but little may be big, compared to nothing....Is my room perfect? Hell no... Is it a marvel to listen music here? Hell yess... A relative optimization is not perfection but you can live with it without looking back... i just post that, because some may think to sell their house after this advice by a pro....Or enter into despair and resignation... My best to all... By the way thinking like some that "near listening" spare for them the necessity of an acoustical treatment in a small room, is true to a very small degree only....In a small room the reflected waves comes very swiftly into play.... I know then very well by experience that acoustical treatment will change the near listening timbre perception and imaging and soundstage.... Except for rare case of some miraculously well set room already good acoustically this is the rule for me.... The only question is NOT to know if the room is good or too difficult to use..... The only difficult question is : Do you have a room ONLY for audio purpose? Anything is acoustically workable...At peanuts cost and i proved it for myself... Is it not good news? The ONLY COSTLY thing will be discount your ears advice from the work to be done... Acoustic in its "basic" form is only learning to hear....Read also the basic about waves.... Then saying to someone "too bad room", next customer, speak less about acoustic science than about simplification of work by business methods....Business management it is called not acoustic at all.... |
@eganmedia I very much appreciate hearing from someone with expertise. Thank you for taking the time to comment. To sweat microscopic details in a room fundamentally poor at reproducing a flat frequency response is sort of a hallmark of the audiophile community and is the reason folks poke fun at it. This makes a lot of sense to me, and I have seen many on this forum make this point and indicate where a genuine difference could be made. So, not all here are poke-worthy. In the context of your other sensible remarks, all I can say is this: I do not have a great room, but it’s not terrible. (That’s ok. I’m a college teacher, not a recording/ mix engineer. When it comes to teaching and research tools, I spend what’s necessary on travel, books, journals, bibliography tools, etc. Audio is a hobby so I do not need to spend as if it was my profession. I have no desire to put ) By the use of REW and a lot (lot!) of measuring and listening, I’ve shifted everything in the room to cooperate to be much, much better. At this point, there are a couple of options -- either (a) I realize that my room can never be great, and I do nothing more to it, or (b) I seek out treatment proportionate to my room’s (limited) potential which could make a noticeable impact. I’ve embarked on (b) because other hobbyists have indicated they made improvements which mattered. So finding a company that can address that more limited ambition is my goal and I appreciate your help in helping me refine my options a bit more. |
In all fairness to Dennis Foley, he clearly makes the point that the most expensive part of room treatment is bass management. He clearly states that managing fundamental frequencies, in the 30 , 40, 50 cycle range is the name of the game or the higher multiple harmonics will not be correct. I would bet, that most readers of this discussion have not addressed their own issues in this range and to do so, will realize that expenditures can be substantial. |
This seems to be the biggest issue I find with audiophiles. Many think their system is closed and only somewhat dependent on their room. Some will will throw thousands of dollars at magical cables and power conditioners while applying wall treatment like it was art, with a few 1" thick absorbent panels. It's all so silly. I have spent 30+ years as a recording/ mix engineer and have built 4 studios in that time. The first two were DIY and sounded like it. The 3rd and 4th were both designed by Francis Manzella who really knew how to get the most out of a room. Without a purpose-built listening room it's unlikely most homes have a floating room with very good ratios and built with multi-layer, heavy, damped construction. My current listening room has those qualities and it still required 32 tuned Helmholtz resonators in the corners, broadband membrane traps against the front wall, RPG Diffractal arrays across most of the back wall, and 4" 703 clouds over about 80% of the ceiling and 70% of the side walls. That treatment takes into consideration that the low frequency modes will already be well spaced and the treatment only enhances what is already a very even room. Much of it is invisible. It's not speaker wire lifted off the ground. It doesn't look like I tweaked it. It's only a starting point. To sweat microscopic details in a room fundamentally poor at reproducing a flat frequency response is sort of a hallmark of the audiophile community and is the reason folks poke fun at it. The dollar amount tossed around in the video sounds conservative for a really good room and has to assume symmetry, good ratios and dimensions, and really good building technique. But people would rather argue about what kind of wood makes an amplifier rack sound best. |
His target market is people willing to pay the prices he charges, not people who need to pay the prices he charges. Most people's acoustics are poor enough that almost anything is an improvement and will elicit a positive response. |
In this new robber barons age there are always insecure and/or lazy people with lots of moola that are prone to serious minded uber professionals. That’s okay if you’re building a new mega house or a studio and like knowing you have the “ best”, but most of us are not going to hire a formula one Ferrari mechanic to tune our old VW. |
@bkeske He isn’t recommending that kind of money on a generic product, or speaking in general. Again, I’m sure his products work, the question is, do you want to spend money on it. If not, don’t buy his products. Pretty simple. Fair enough. I realize that when he talks about "budget" in his video, he’s talking about "budget for my products" rather than "budget for someone wanting to address their bass, midrange etc. issues." Got it. In eliciting opinions, I’ve learned something. Some here found that going with his approach is worth extra money; others found solutions at other, lower prices. I am new to shopping for acoustic treatments. I thought that Foley’s company was a competitor to GIK, ATS, etc. (which are "generic" products, in your terms). But now I understand Foley aims at a clientele that wants to pay his prices for his solutions. I misread the intent in his video, which I thought was aimed at a wider audience. I appreciate your comments. Thank you. |
Dennis seems to have knowledge. I spoke with him once about my room - he basically said the dimensions and layout are both unfixable ("Don't bother trying to fix it, buy a different house."). His systems probably work quite well. Maybe the cost vs effectiveness is merited in some instances for some people. I suspect there are diminishing returns at play, and like most endeavors, 80% effectiveness can be achieved with 20% effort/materials. I plan to do what I can with my room using panels from Music City Acoustics - they sell a whole studio kit for $1500, and that's probably what I'll use (no affiliation - not even a customer yet). That and the right choice of speakers (LXmini and Martin Logan e-stats aren't arguing with my room) and Dirac. So, I'm addressing room interaction from every aspect; speakers, DSP and treatment - to lessen the burden on each. Will it be perfect - probably not by Dennis' standards; however, for the fraction of time I spend critically listening to music in that space, it should be plenty. For those who are spending $80k for room treatments... if you have the cash (or business need), go for it! If I had $80k laying around un-invested, I'd buy another Porsche - to each their own. |
@hilde45 @bkeske I wasn’t beating up on him. He may cater to high end clients and that’s fine. I took note of this video because it was explicitly aimed at what a minimum budget would require. In other words, this is not a video aimed at movie studios or yacht owners. It was that framing — which he chose — which called the question. I’m just asking it. No, it was aimed at his products and his solutions. He isn’t recommending that kind of money on a generic product, or speaking in general. Again, I’m sure his products work, the question is, do you want to spend money on it. If not, don’t buy his products. Pretty simple. |
Sound waves really don't care if you're a certified room treatment product. So you can be sneaky with room treatments: No on glass-framed artworkYes on framed canvas paintings Yes on wood carvings and tapestries Yes on balancing the left and right side... Yes on drapes and house plants in textured potsNo on glass coffee tablesYes on strategically placed rugsYes on fewest things between the speakers See where I'm going where this? |
@bkeske I wasn’t beating up on him. He may cater to high end clients and that’s fine. I took note of this video because it was explicitly aimed at what a minimum budget would require. In other words, this is not a video aimed at movie studios or yacht owners. It was that framing — which he chose — which called the question. I’m just asking it. |
It cost me nothing but nobody believe it ..... 😁 They think it is a joke and that are valid only what is sold officially by an acoustic company.... The true point is without room controls most system could not work at their optimal level.... Many system very costly i listen to youtube are fatiguing with harsness, and people are not conscious at all about acoustic....I prefer my 500 bucks one.... What does it say about acoustic? |
That’s insane ,if you can afford a custom built Audio room and $1000s for Sonus or other brands fine but 90% of Audiophiles try to smartly damp there room ,first reflection , bass ,corner panels, Equipment isolation, vibrations, you can truly get your room to sound very respectable for minimal monies with just some research and follow others proven methods,and experimentation. |