Again, appreciate the comments and the financial wisdom. As I executed upon rebuilding, I found myself in a layer of paralysis analysis. Like many, I don’t have an audio store or an easy way to demo/listen to all the various combos. All of the comments were appreciated.
I opted to start smaller with a sound I’m familiar with. I also became limited in placement and space, as I still have two very rambunctious young children. I moved forward with a Pass Labs X150.8, set of Dynaudio Heritage 40’s and a PS Audio Directstream DAC.
For pre, I’ve ran PL XP 20/22’s and at one point pulled it out of the chain, and went DAC direct to the amps. It sounded better w/o. I know the function of a pre, so it’s not to dispute using one or not, but I didn’t splurge on an expensive pre and believe this, along with a new DAC pursuit, will end up being the adventure/hobby aspect for me. During the interim, I picked up a PL X2.5.
Per cabling, let the fighting begin. I didn’t extend into expensive cabling. I opted to burn in some of the entry level Cardas lines, and move on from there. I do plan on spending time with the Cable Co. library of lenders.
Per streamer, I’m heavily leaning towards the Innuos Pulse, but haven’t pulled the trigger on it yet, I’ll be sleuthing the forum after this post on it.
Per room acoustics, I’m reusing a kit that was scoped by GIK for another room and will repurpose appropriately.
And also, what an absolute year it has been! So happy to be back in the 2ch mix! Thanks for the input and happy to be trolling again with ya’ll!
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Were I do embark on such a quest, the first thing I would do is not take advice from strangers on the interweb. There is a real world out there…
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An $80k pair of Meridian dsp8000se for $18k
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@deep_333 The OP clarified in a subsequent post that the ‘family debt’ he was referring to was the result of a divorce settlement.
Do not project your financial restraints onto others.
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You might consider a financial planner as being more of a priority than your next 80k luxury item. I mean, to pay off family debt you get a fraction of your systems value, and a year later drop 80k on a luxury item. That math does not add up. Well, at least not the way I earn my money.
Hmm, agreed, if the dude had to sell gear to reduce ’family debt’?!?!, it doesn’t sound a whole lot like the dude should be operating near this price bracket.
OP, you may want to drop your budget to 5k maybe. Audio nirvana could happen easily even at 5k (It may disappoint the forum’s Dealers Incognitoticus club however). Use the remaining 45k to 75k for other important things in life.
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OK, I’ll play. I love spending other people’s money!
I’ll assume your listening room is already sorted out.
You haven’t mentioned any sources - streaming, vinyl, CD/SACD, so I’ve chosen to focus on CD/SACD. You’ll notice that I’ve stuck with one company (except for the digital source). I’m a big believer in component compatibility (i.e. components that have been ‘voiced’, or designed, to work with one another). Plus, you have much more room to negotiate (price) when buying a complete system from a single company.
So, here’s my list:
Speakers: Coincident Reference Extreme II new - $30,000, used - virtually unobtanium
Amplifier: Coincident 211PP Dragon MK. II new - $11,000, used ~$6,000
Linestage: Coincident 300B Statement new - $7,000, used - $5,000
Digital Source: Esoteric UX-1 (Modified by APL HiFi NWO) used only - $7,000
IC cables: Teo Audio GC Ultra Balanced (2 pairs) new - $5,000
So, total budget comes in around $60,000 (buying mostly new). I haven’t recommended speaker wire or power cabling but you have enough left over in your budget for your favourite flavours (e.g. Shunyata, Nordost, Cardas, Duelund, etc.).
Good luck in your search!
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overthemoon,
just for your knowledge I spoke to Sim audio and they told me that the 761 amplifier is far superior to the 860a V2, and I believe in the US it retails for 14 to 15,000, I'm going to be upgrading my w-8 to the 861 that thing is a beast.
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I think you should listen to the new SIM audio north collection even the smaller amp is a game changer.
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I think you should listen to the new SIM audio north collection even the smaller amp is a game changer.
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I think you should listen to the new SIM audio north collection even the smaller amp is a game changer.
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Classic Audio Loudspeakers T3.4 Super Efficent, Cohrent, Musical Emotionally engaging speaker massive dynamics smoother oh it's just pure musical.
No Need for subwoofers.
Aries Cerat TriodeFet Amplifiers
Allnic Phono Stage or Aries Cerat Phono All tubes only
CSport Turntable
your Set for life.
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If you have a large living room and either live alone or with a very understanding spouse/partner, I would bring a few of my favorite cds to listen to Magnepan 20.7 speakers ($20K). They are great for the jazz you like.
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Thomas Meyer electronics. Smart guy, stunning build quality, and superb sound. Not in the same league as much more heavily advertised brands ... far above.
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@perkadin I know, I don’t take these forums too serious, appreciate the condolences. The truly fortunate benefactor, 2-channel. Haha, mistresses…we’re forgetting about “mristresses,” they like getting in the mix as well. The used market is always a wise move and often my first goto. Wow, 98 Carerra S, that’s one to still own!
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@toddcowles The advice was general, nothing specific to you personally and it wasn't an invitation for a financial debate. I am in the business of wealth building so your comments touched a nerve. I can't tell you how many clients I've worked with that thought they were set only to have it all come crashing down. The more we make the more we spend, and it becomes easy to lose scope of what is truly affordable so it's good to put things in perspective with general guidelines. In the grand scheme of things HiFi is small potatoes compared to boats, homes, and worst of all, mistresses. My condolences on the marriage. In all seriousness consider the used market, especially higher end items which are built to last a lifetime. A well researched puchase might be free. The least expensive car I ever owned was a 98 Carerra S.
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I see you have a dedicated power line.
I’ve read where two seperate power runs, one for digital, one for analogue has worked. Have a look at that as a possibility.
Would also investigate a power conditioner. Puritan PSM 156 is getting positive reviews around the globe. I’m saving for one by August.
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@ghdprentice It’s a ribbing of sort. I have the utmost respect for those that sent their kids to college on GM and Coca-Cola stock. The financial advice offered is sound, and great for all seeking it. I’ve spent my life focusing on math, engineering and computer science, and well, “we good,” as they say. Now, retirement, or at the very least, 3 hours a day to listen would be an absolute blessing.
And if I bare a little more of my soul, it gives me something to focus on other than the dissolution of my marriage.
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OP,
Go for it! I am 70 and retired. I spent 50 years learning, reaching, and investing. Now, I am able to listen to my system for three hours a day. It is my most rewarding asset. Well worth the continual investment and work I have put into it. Actually in order of resale value my house is number one, my audio system is two, and my new 4Runner and Lexus is third in value. When I die, it gets liquidated to support my partner or to charity.
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I don’t think my financial situation is what I put up for discussion, and it’s a little beyond the scope. I’ve worked very, very, very hard and have lived/operated within my means. This really isn’t the forum to discuss why/how I will be in said position. Doing so, I believe, is called boasting. It’s a serious question, with serious sacrifice to be in a position to have such a luxury, again.
And if I must settle all of this, and give the entire community context, thought stating “family debt” was going to be ok, forgot some of ya’ll are Boomers and like to get into other folks business. I spent approx 10-12 years building that system. The soon to be ex mandated I sell it. Forward looking, it’s all good, I’ve got another great opportunity to build a better rig! Again, appreciate the insights and commentary.
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As always @ghdprentice the voice of reason. Calm. Polite (regardless of deranged individuals dealing with). To the point. Accurate. I want to be like you when I grow up. And I mean it. Not a snarky comment
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I’m not sure there is a financial rule that best suits everyone. Everyone is different in priorities, values in possessions, risk, and how they manage their life.
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This thread is absolute madness. From a financial point of view you should not be "saving up" for a system, at least not in the traditional sence, I will expand upon that in a bit. This is a hobby, a complely unnecessary indulgence. You should be able to pay for your entire system without taking on debt or dipping into retirement savings that are intended to maintain your current status of living. If you are past retirement age, and still in a position to spend 50-80k on your hobby without materially impacting your future, then go right ahead. But OP has made a few comments that has me doubting their financial position.
If you want to get an idea of a responsible budget, you can use the 1% rule which allows for spending 1% per year of your total net worth on luxury items. Luxury items can mean anything from travel, goods, services etc. Pretty much anything that you don’t really need to purchase. So to have a budget of 50-80k on Hifi I would expect your total net worth should be in the 5-8m range (potentially lower when you account for resale value). Net worth is total assets - total liabilites. If you are ultimatly responsible for a portion of family debts beyond your immediate household, you should factor those in along with your liabilities.
Given the 1% rule allows provides an annual spending limit you can save up for a system buy buying it over time and keeping within that annual amount. But dont forget to add in other luxury costs like travel, and expenses from other members of your household. I’m assuming HiFi isnt your only indulgence. Now here’s where things get interesting. Unlike travel or service expenses, you can use a modifier for audio gear since there is resale value on these items which is typically 30-50% from new, or much higher when buying used. Example- lets say you buy a used Gryphon Diablo 300 for 10k. You should be able to comfortably sell that for 8k a few years from now making its total cost 2k, maybe a bit higher due to shipping etc but you get the idea. Take 1% of your total net worth, figure out what your other luxury expenditures are, and what’s left over is what you can spend per year on your this system and adjust back up to account for the resale value of the items. If you find yourself short on budget either scale things back and/or look into the used marketplace.
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Most 80K systems will be 'hi fi" sounding rather than organic.Think Wilsons,Magico,Focal etc Which means that you will get sick of it and hardly use it .I have friends with Magico speakers who simply stopped listening to them.Or hop on the "upgrade " path which will only lead to more expense and frustration.
You could do a lot worse than vintage Tannoy Monitor Gold 15s in a nice big Onken box [say $8000] [or some Harbeths] and a Chinese copy of a Dartzeel NHB108 [about $1000] power amp and a Supratek preamp.[Say $4500] Those just make lovely music and are organic but are also high enough resolution.
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DarTzeel LHC-208 integrated amp together with Stenheim 03 speakers will give you an organic sound you will be very happy with.
I have to say, I do agree with gavman about Macintosh.
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Magico, Rockport, Vinberg (some great reviews)
@bobfun - at AXPONA 2022 last year, I demoed the Magico A5 and the Rockport Atria II to help finalize my final speaker purchase. The Magico’s had better treble highs but the Rockport sounded more together but less forward. I heard the Vimberg Minos which sounded fantastic, but it had the diamond tweeter upgrade which added $10k so I assumed it was out of my budget. After the show, I spoke to my dealer Chris at Artisan Fidelity and told him about these 3 speakers, so a few back and forth raising my budget and lowering the price until a deal was reached. So I’m a proud owner of the Vimberg Mino D.
@toddcowles
I’m at the THE Show in Los Angeles and plan to go to the Pacific Audio Fest in a couple of weeks. I suggest that you attend High-end audio shows to see and hear what YOU like. I like Magico and YG speakers, but Wilson speakers never resonated with me…yet. Speakers sound different so it’s best you hear first hand.
The largest North American show EXPONA just past, but there are a few other shows.
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Yah room is important but maybe you can't do anything to the room. Obviously, you had the Harbeth in the old system, and that worked out fine. I have been in your shoes twice in the last 4 years. I did travel around the country to visit areas where there are a lot of dealers and also attend shows.
The main priority is finding a speaker that you really love and it will probably be different than Harbeth. You are probably going to be looking at speakers in the $20-35k price range. All of the other components are a piece of cake after the speakers. If you find a speaker you really like, see if any are available on the used market.
I once bought amps before a speaker. What a major mistake. I ended up having to sell the amps and never played them. Buy speakers first.
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Reviewing this string it dawned on me, if I was to do over from scratch I would actively find a Shindo system and see if that would inspire my choice of direction. I have never heard one, but always have wanted to.
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@toddcowles Consider running 3 dedicated 20 amp lines. 2 for mono's/subs on each side and 1 for your sources and other rack gear. With this large of a room, you may even consider doing a couple more around the room if a 2 channel/theatre combo is of any potential interest in the future. Seems overkill now, but just wait..I don't think there is a better ROI on any investment in this hobby than clean, dedicated power.
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Take your time. Pick speakers first. Get what you like. Look at Sonus Faber, B&W
Magico, Rockport, Vinberg (some great reviews)
I recently started the upgrade path and went with Sonus Faber found a fantastic Demo pair. I have an Anthem P5 and it still sounds great much better than people give it credit.
Then decide on your source or sources. I'd recommend to look at a really good
Integrated especially if theater bypass is something you might want to do in the future.
Im looking at Boulder amp 866 and Gryphon Diablo 300
Both have very good DAC streamers. Simaudio Moon also makes great gear.
Have fun.
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@toddcowles Good move on the 20amp line, I was shocked how big of a difference adding that to my system made. Good power is never a bad foundation to build around and costs way less than most any components.
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if i were you i will try buy field coil speaker ,, just search it at diyaudio ,, it seem make nice sound from it ,,, i believe at last it can beat any speaker made before 1970
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Kudos to room treatment, I’ve had GIK produce treatments for prior rooms. Yeah, not sure what all the financial stuff is about…but I’m good, so is my long-term financial outlook.
It took me about 10 years and $40k-$50k of saving, buying, trading, saving, buying, trading and so on to build it. I certainly will be focused on previously used gear, as I’ve got 0 desire to absorb depreciation. Though, there are some pieces that rarely come up for sale, and I’ll be in a position to purchase them if it tickles my fancy…but may not be anyplace convenient to demo. Just seeing if those combos suss out in this thread.
The room is approximately 35 by 15. The prior owner had been using it as a wood shop. It sits off the back of our garage, and I’ll be readdressing with rock wool, Green Glue, and tracking/decoupling system for the ceiling. I’ll have a direct 20 amp ran, it’s a short run from the breaker…maybe 10 feet.
Again…thank you all for the responses.
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@lanx0003
+1
Yes. you have to establish a foundation based on relatively neutral reviews… Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, and HiFi+ are the bases of real Research. So, some recommendations here may point to equipment to do further research on.
After reading these publications for over 40 years I can figure out how the component sounds or the reviewer has a strong bias pretty easily. So I would use specific input here as a recommendation for additional research and listening.
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Has anyone mentioned re-sale considerations?
Audio can be/will be a merry go round.
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Here we go again. Another insufferable brand name basher. One reason I don't post very often is this. Then you take it a step further by comparing the gear you have trashed by comparing to another that on average cost 2 or 3 times more. I don't suppose you have considered how many Mac users on this forum you have insulted. Reminds me of the guy that recently posted that all Esoteric CD players sound like tanks. Such an ignorant ilinformed poster. Is there a monitor on the forum to take such posters aside for the benefit of the rest of us? P.S. I'm not a Mac user.
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I fail to see why anyone would buy Macintosh. Abject mediocrity.
If your priority is to purchase US domestic products, buy Boulder. They wipe the floor with Mac.
Watching videos from Munich the Mac - Sonus Faber room was easily the worst.
But the Wolf Von Langa Son, with valve integrated amp, was reviewed by many as best in show, and falls squarely within your budget
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Enthusiastic audiogoners here will start spinning you around with all sort of dream gears of their own. This shows how much they care about you but it might not be a good thing because you will be overwhelmed. Instead, it is suggested that you go to a reputable source like Stereophile and carefully study not only the measurements but also listening test experience. Then screen out a few candidates and combination under your budget before presenting them to the audiogoners for advices. This due diligence is a must. Don't be lazy.
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Tod a dac Thst all would like for $7k a great bargain the T+A 200 dac
speakers the New Sonus Faber Serafino G2 is $26k and cannot be overlooked
sounds as good as they look , integrated amp the New Gryphon 333 just atop of the iceberg .
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After having been through a ton of gear (all the Harbeth and REL S series included), I am confident that nothing will outperform Fleetwood Sound DeVilles. For those of us that like a slightly warm presentation, they give you that musicality but don’t sacrifice detail or efficiency like the Harbeths. My DeVilles sound like my Harbeth 40.2 with the towels taken off! Retail is around $16-20k depending on the options you choose.
For the rest of the system, a lot depends on what you want to focus on. My guess from your post is that you like a warmer sound, so I would pair the Fleetwoods with a Luxman integrated amplifier or some tubes you like. The other no brainer pairing with the Fleetwoods is either of the Technics GaN integrateds - honestly the $2800 ones sounds outstanding with those speakers. It is just one of those pairings that works super well. DAC is part of the amp itself, so all you need is a nice little streamer, a turntable (go with technics 1200G) and a couple cables. You’ll be all in for $30k or less and have a shockingly better system than most people with $80k systems.
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Obvious idea is redo what you had !
Alternatively, do what I use here for mastering every style daily. Evolution MM3 +Exact (used $23,000 +Exact), Allnic Audio A-6000 linear tube amps (used $10,000). DA options are Berkley Audio Design Ser III, Bricasti M1 SE or Mytek Manhattan II (new: $12,000, 9000, 4500)
I buy used, depreciated, broken in, when possible !
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Hi Todd. . . Follow ghdprentice advice.He is 100% right.Just adding my 2 cents.If you hear a less expensive system you like then good luck to you.More money doesn't always buy happiness. Synergy will!However,if the cost is little more,then save some more and build a system your ears had approved.If you are still undecided, then buy the best of Harbeth and Pass.Consider buying used if possible.
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@toddcowles Can you elaborate more on your previously owned "beloved 2 channel system" i.e price paid , why not just replace with some upgrades ? I know this is the route I would take , with little to no hesitation. Unless you are looking into a multi channel HT system in place of a 2 channel setup.
See what happens then is you can satisfy the itch to get back into the audio pool & more importantly exercise some restraint at not embarking on a spending spree , just because it is possible now to do so.
Did you not gain any wisdom from the experience , rather unpleasant it must be, to have such serious family financial problems at your door & resort to extreme means as a temporary solution. The bigger picture scenario might require some sacrifice here and there to yield better long term financial stability.
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Since you liked your previous Harbeth's, if your room is large enough, you can purchase a used Harbeth 40.1 or 40.2 for about half or less than original price. Add good solid state amps like Classe monblocks, a good tubed preamp like Audio Research or CJ, a quality turntable/cartridge and you would not even spend 1/2 of your proposed budget
\\\preamp
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Speakers: Revel Salon 2 speakers can be had on the used market for around 10K-11K, which makes them still one of the greatest values on the planet. The Revel Salon 2s can still compete with most any, and I mean any, of the current outrageously and ridiculously priced speakers on the market today. I just can’t speak highly enough about the Revel Salon 2 speakers, they never disappoint and are pure performance loudspeakers for the ages.
Amplification: The Salon 2s need high power amplification to be driven properly. If your room is more moderately sized, you can (as I did), drive them with the extremely powerful and absolutely reference quality sounding Hegel H590 integrated amp, which sells on the used market for around 6.5K, and you’ll be well on your way to a system that will absolutely blow your mind and knock your socks off!!!
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