those speakers always sounded best on sound anchor stands IMO
Would like to get more bass out of my B&W 801 series 2 speakers
Hello,
I've been forum diving about ways people improve their music listening experience. So many directions to choose from, I'm looking advice which will give the most bang for the buck given my situation.
Years ago I was visiting a friend who had these same exact speakers, and I went on a quest for my own pair. His setup had a *more rich sound*, but he is no longer with us for me to pick his brain. Don't know anything about how he was driving the speakers.
In general I think the current setup gives me good detailed sound, but probably a little thin in the bass. Might be because of my listening levels (low to moderate). I wouldn't call the mid/high frequencies warm, but they aren't harsh either... which was a concern with the class D amp. I'd characterize them as clean and detailed.
What I'd really like to do is bring out the low frequencies to join the party.
Environment:
massive, 32x40 with vaulted ceilings. Lots of windows.
Hardware:
B&W 801 S2
- on the original casters
- crossovers modified via the common Van Alstine mod
NAD C298 amplifier
- some decent biwire speaker cables
NAD C658 streaming DAC
- balanced xlr interconnects
Rotel CD player
What I listen to:
I listen to a wide assortment of music, this morning I went from classical to jazz... but usually I listen to rock/blues/reggae. You name it I listen to it.
Things I have considered:
- buy/build stands for the speakers.
- try out different amp(s)
there are a pair of GFA555 series 1 available locally (bi-amp?)
lots of folks recommend the Classe delta line
Any advice is welcome, thanks in advance!
45 responses Add your response
Just saw your picture. Your best option is to treat your ceiling and bring your speakers out from against the wall if at all possible, otherwise treat wall directly behind with as thick absorbers you can afford. The ceiling is going to substitute a little for the other treatments you can't place. Normally you don't have to do that much with the ceiling, but in your case you may use it somewhat to reduce the overall reflectiveness of the room. Also the entertainment center between the speakers is not helping you. Try blankets/pillows in between the speakers, and behind to get an idea of where you want to spend money in treatment options. They are free and can help you get a feel for what choices will work for you. |
The Adcom GFAs (aka GreatF&ckingAmp) were good in the day but they are very, very old and would need to be recapped etc. Is it worth it? Will they be reliable? Questionable at best. Look for something more modern, and good bang for the buck, like a Hegel H30 or better yet the H30A. Should be plenty of power and pair well with your excellent speakers. |
The bass and overall clarity improved significantly with the modification in my opinion. I did them one at a time and did A-B after the first was completed.
I am intrigued by the room treatment ideas, not sure how I would give a treatment to the vaulted ceiling? I can certainly move them away from the wall some, and I have heard getting them up off the ground (with some stands) helps too. I really don't sit in the chairs to listen, this is our "community room" and lots of time spent there working around the kitchen/island.
I will try moving them away from the wall, closing the drapes, and maybe nocking together some short stands out of 4x4s. I have read that they like to come up around 3-4 inches.
thanks for the input!
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Is your listening chair in a null? Have you walked around the entire room to determine the room nodes: the peaks & nulls of the bass? A drawback of a full-range floorstander is that the LF woofers are in a fixed position. That’s why some people choose monitors and freestanding subs - so they can position the subs anywhere in the room in order to have the bass waves arrive correctly by their listening chair.* A possible solution could be the Distributed Bass Array, ’DBA’. Examples are: 'The Swarm’ and the 'DEBRA'. - - - *A 30hz bass wave is 37 feet long. It’s bouncing off the walls, ceiling and floor. The goal is to have it arrive at your listening chair at the same time as the HF & Midrange. If you’re sitting in a null, no amount of room treatment will add bass. It could help tame the HF, if needed. |
@chessie Simple solution: At only 87db, your speakers are very low efficiency and hard to drive. You need tons of power, with high damping factor amplification in order to bring out the best in your speakers, including the bass response. Your current amp at approx. 185 wpc into 8 ohms simply doesn't cut it. You're underpowering your speakers. I suggest you replace your current amp with something that'll give you at least 300 wpc into 8 ohms. Once you replace your current amp with something much more powerful, I guarantee, you'll hear miraculous improvements not only in your bass response, but also the overall slam and dynamic of your speakers, especially when listening at low to moderate volume levels. Happy listening. |
Well, I have received lots of good ideas, thanks and keep the advice coming. Acoustically this room is a mess, will be trying to figure out how I can improve it. I am intrigued by the DBA method, wonder if four subs would be enough for my space.
A friend is going to loan me a Crown XLS 1502 to see what 300wpc will do for me. I plan to get the 801s up off the floor, get them some space from the wall, and close the curtains.
cheers! |
That’s a large room with a lot of volume. I’d add room treatment and an active subwoofer or two for an easy increase in bass output. Bi-amping could help. A big SS amp on those woofers should bring some life to them, especially if you go next level and bypass the woofer’s passive low pass crossover and replace with an active crossover. Found some online specs that put the crossover frequency between the woofer and midbass at 380hz, so the woofers are handling the lower and middle vocal range. Letting the subwoofers handle below 60-80 hz will relieve the woofers of low bass duty, which should help clarity in the vocal range too. |
FWIW I have 801 S2 Mk IIIs. Currently in a medium sized, treated room. Formerly in a very large room. I have used various amps in biamped configuration- Krell, Crown and Mac.Since new I made sturdy pedestal bases filled with sand that must weigh about 35 lbs. That puts the tweeter at ear height when sitting.
Bass has never been an issue. Even though I have a subwoofer (VMPS) for extreme bass, I can switch it out on my pre amp and on most music I don’’t miss the sub- the 801’s are very adequate . Right now run they with Mac 250/w amp (un biamped) and never sounded better.
As always, YMMV but the consensus opinion is that for these speakers, large current has always been recommended. Amps are easy to swap in and out- if you can borrow from a friend or dealer and experiment. Let us know
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I should clarify this, I listen to low to moderate levels because I am caregiver for my folks and they live with us. Mom is mostly deaf and if played at higher levels she picks up *some parts* of it and it drives her to distraction. She claims it can’t be music, and it isn’t clear what part she picks up. If I keep things down it doesn’t bother her.
I know that is a monkey wrench into the equation, but the problem remains the same and I am working on it for the long game.
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Just wanted to add to the thoughts of Adcom GFA-555 amps. |
IMHO these are not great low level speakers. Some are but not these. Even at low levels the drivers seem to need high current to get decent sound out. The “stands” are basically 3/4” sealed wooden boxes the speakers sit on to raise them up and decouple from the floor. I’m traveling so can’t give you the size but they are a few inches less than the footprint of the speaker bottom. They have a “port” that opens in back allowing the sand to be filled then closed. There is no more bass in this configuration but what there is is tight and the tweeter and midrange better time aligned. Here’s a link to an old picture. |
@chessie Wrote:
Why not connect your JBL subwoofer up? Mike |
I owned those speakers for several years in the late 8os through the 90s and they need good solid power—I used a Class A British Fidelity amp that looked and gave off the temps of an oven. My room at the time had big row of French doors and windows behind the speakers so not ideal, but there was plenty of bass and the overall tone was warm, rich, and plummy. I loved them! I played my very first CDs on them, via a two box tube CD behemoth called the Cal Audio Labs Tempest II. That was one of the best sounding systems I ever owned, even with the French doors and big windows. I’d get a different amp for sure. That old Adcom might work but don’t spend too much on such old gear. |
My living room is large like yours and seems to just swallow up bass. My prior speakers did not work at all there but were gloriously full in a more moderately sized room. Do you have the ability to test that out a smaller room as an experiment? My fix was a larger more efficient speaker but subs can work wonders too and you can dial them in to the level you need. Also an amp with a different sound profile might do better for you. |
Regarding finding a mono signal to test my existing amp in bridged mode, it looks like this is easily accomplished with the minidsp 2x4hd. I have been thinking about getting one of these as it appears to also be a solution to my preamp/subout problem. I can use it as a digital filter to convert a regular speaker out to sub out. |
Lots of experience with that generation of B&W 801. My friend still runs a set driven by a pair of bridged GFA555s. When I hear them I remember why that was a speaker that always sounded right to me, even today. I did have to rebuild both his crossovers last year because the high-pass caps for the midranges fried, but the midrange drivers remained unscathed. Whew! I hope your crossover mod addressed that issue. B&W did offer around this time an EQ that was placed between the amp and preamp. If I remember correctly, the EQ changed the woofer roll off from a 4th order to a 6th order Butterworth alignment, adding a half octave more of bass extension and a steeper roll off below that point. They are still found on eBay occasionally. Krell made one too but they were very expensive and really didn’t sound any better than the more modest B&W option. |
@robert53 - Yes, the stock power cord on the amp.
@porchlight1 - I have heard about this filter, seems the reviews are mixed... most say it improves bass but muds higher frequencies. Don't want to do anything to foul the existing clarity... plus the "bass alignment filters" are getting hard to come by. Intrigued by this idea of a distributed bass array for music. I am going to see what adding power does to the existing setup, but it may be that this space simply demands moving more air.
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Think you need to figure the room out before you purchase anything. It's a very big room, looks like your kitchen is behind it? You have everything going against you here. Lots of big windows, high ceilings, hard reflective surfaces. Speakers up on the wall under windows. No kidding it's not sounding "perfect". First thing would be to find out where the null points are in the room, then try to move the speakers around so you are not sitting in a null. That alone can double to triple the bass at your listing position. Also move the speakers out from the wall, at least 20in out. Does the sound change at all when you close all the curtains? Then you got to do something with all the windows. Something like this https://marigoaudio.com/zw-window-resonance-damping-discs/ But might want to try this "cheap" trick to see if you notice anything before you spend thousands of dollars on the good dots. https://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0602/freakazoid.htm#gsc.tab=0 Yes, you need some bass traps, ceiling treatments, and who knows what else. Is there another wall to put all the gear? Looks like you are on the long wall, it might sound better on the short wall. Guess what I'm saying, is your gear is all good, think it's 100% the room letting you down. Really if you do some of the above and only get part of the sound you are looking for, just get a sub, it really makes a big difference. If you get one with speaker level inputs, they are easier to integrate and hook up. Good luck! |
@mswale - thanks for your post. I think the room is driving the issues, but the room is also what I want. I rarely sit down to listen to music, as much as I would like to. I spend my days working in and around this space. My quality of life will improve with what I can do to help the response of the room... whether it through treatment or the burning of more electrons.
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I owned the exact same speakers as you, the Sound anchors stand's requires you to remove the plate on the bottom to mount the speakers on the stands. This raises the speakers up aprox 4- possibly 6 inches and also gives them a slight tilt back, I also had the original B&W bass extender that goes into the tape loop on your preamp, This unit is cheaply made, so I had the Krell extender that B&W asked Krell to design for this speaker and contrary to what people are saying it does make a big difference to the Bass along with useing the sound anchor stands. Originally the Krell unit sold for aprox $1000.00 but if i see them now the cost runs between $2000.00- $3000.00 depending on how gready the sellor is or what they Paid for them. I would recommend Getting the sound anchor stands designed for these speakers as it lifts them up aprox 4" so the Twitter is at aprox ear level when sitting in a chair. But I would wait untill you tried the higer powerd amp to see, as I was driving them with a older Krell 600 wpc amp that weighed 200lbs to see if you notice any changes in the Bass extension, before starting down the road to be making changes to your system, also the speakers were aprox 2 feet from the wall. They were also in my great room, where the ceiling started out at 8' and ran up to 22' high on a 32 foot wall as I have a fireplace in that room. This fixed all my problems with the bass. Ihave since moved on with a newer system but this is what I remember when I owned the B&W 801 series 2 speakers. Hope this gives you some more clarity on your system. Good Luck !
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@chessie I own a pair of 801 series 2 which look just like yours. But in your room, they look small; in my room they hulk up like your JBLs (see more below). While they may be a bit insensitive, I was told on this forum that due to their relatively benign phase angle, that they were relatively easy to drive to the point that my Rogue Audio all-tube Stereo100’s (100 wpc) could ‘make them sing.’ I’ve never tried that combination, but have bi-amped them in several ways, although currently drive them with two McIntosh solid-state MC252’s bridged to mono for 500 wpc. I don’t find that giving them access to more power gives them any more volume; although it seems to help the dynamics a bit. I added a bit of low-volume subwoofer which helped their extension a little. Big room needs big driver(s) to move the air. Then look at your amp if they have trouble providing the power required by the driver(s) you have chosen. Not to say the 801’s can’t get the job done, but worth asking the question, in my opinion. |
@chessie You have not said how your floor is constructed but the law of action and reaction may have a bearing. When your big driver moves forward, an equal force tries to move the cabinet back, especially if the speakers are on rollers. You need to mechanically fix the cabinet to the floor, with spikes or an equivalent, to give the big driver a steady platform to perform from. |
OP, Have you ever measured the SPL out of your room / speakers? If not, try to get some measurements to determine if the bass responses were indeed lacking and, if so, how far is it from the targeted or the factory published level. REW is free but need some training and experience. I would suggest getting either Wiim Pro or Pro+ to do the room correction and EQ. While going through that process, you will be getting the current measurement out of the speakers and room. The coveat is the internal mic of iphone or androi phone may not up to task and a mic such as Umik 1 is recommended. |
yags1 probably has it with the Sound Anchors stands. Or, possibly Gaia Footers or Townshend. So many chase around trying to fix what cannot be fixed until stability issues are addressed. This also applies to equipment. The Sound Anchors, Gaia or Townshend will not provide more bass, but rather better bass. They will also clean up the mids and highs and organize the sound stage. Oh, and yes the windows are quite reflective of sound and not in a good way. Cheers |
Ok I am going to throw out an option not yet considered... Due to the fact you listen a low levels, could the lack of apparent bass be due to the lack of appropriate low frequency equalization to make up for the low levels you listen? Think of the fletcher-munson curves and consider adding in some active equalization via DSP. Tweaking the response with some eq would go a long way towards resolving the issue. Given that you listen at low levels you probably are not using up the potential your current amplifier provides. That leaves headroom within the amplifiers performance envelope to apply some equalization. It will go a long way towards solving your issues with no real downside. If it turns out that you are pushing the amplifier beyond its comfort zone, you would likely already be aware of it. Also, you might want to verify that both speakers are wired in phase. Its so easy to make that mistake and cheap to fix. Taming the room reflections will clean up the 'smearing' of the sound that occurs with to many hard surfaces. Curtains, carpet, all will help. Hanging a decorative tapestry on the wall might help too. There are many ways to experiment with taming a bad room and I am sure you can make some headway by just experimenting with things you already own without spending money. Money of course fixes a lot of things, but there are other avenues to explore before resorting to that. |
I would say it is definitely a reflective environment. I'd post a picture but not sure where to put it on the internet... don't seem to be able to upload it from my computer.