fleschler, I have lost track of where and in which thread, but several persons earlier have mentioned that while we all agree that having a 3d soundstage is appealing, it is not a true representation of how the music was recorded. Rather, it was stated it is the result of having an over/under emphasis built into regions (midrange?) of the speakers. I would be interested if anyone else can add flesh to this statement?
Wilson Audio Haters
I've always wondered why there are so many people out there, that more than any other speaker manufacturer, really hate the Wilson line. I own Maxx 2's and also a pair of Watt Puppys. They are IMHO quite wonderful.
Why does Wilson get so much thrashing?
429 responses Add your response
To you to understand what a 3 dimensional stage does and work. Even for intimate recordings were the voice is put in front, you get more space beside and behind. This give the music a more intimate and tangible image. This is how a voice or instrument is being experienced in real as well. Intimate sound is a part of Tru-Fi. And is based on how instruments and voices are being projected and formed. A friend of mine had a concert room with a Steinway grande piano. It was a room for about 60 people. Here I learned how small and direct voices and instruments are. And also how important the space around voices and instruments are. When you compare amps, sources and loudspeakers with eachother the differences between how the stage is being build is huge. We are also dealer of Stillpoints and yess they create a wider and deeper soundstage. But there are many different things to create a wider and deeper stage. Our Statement Audio Pro-measurement creates also a much wider and deeper soundstage. It creates a better phase. Many of my clients use the word; addictive for the 3-Dimensional stage. At the end it is a part, but in highend an important part to distinguish from hifi stereo. I visited jazz concerts with a stunning level in stage depth and diversity in height of the instruments. This made a big impression on me. This is how I want an audio system to build a stage. When you work more accurate you will create more stage depth, width and height. These days we work at 0.5mm precision. It makes a difference! We have ideas to use conservatorium students for audio presentations to show people what intimate sound means and does. And to show them how small and direct sound is. |
Jetter: Can't add too much to that statement, but I do note that when the Avalon Ascent came out it was often paired with Rowland equipment (I heard them in Mike Hobson's then-boutique store driven by Rowland Model 7s). They has a tremendous three-dimensional soundstage, better than any speaker I had ever heard at the time. J. Gordon Holt wondered in print whether that might in part be due to a frequency dip in the Rowland/Avalon interface in the midrange. While I do like a 3-D soundstage, there are other things (truth in timbre, reproduction of micro and macro-dynamics, rhythmic flow) that make for a realistic or satisfying listening experience. Some (apparently Bo) place more importance on one of those aspects than another. To each his/her own. |
Depth of soundstage should vary with each recording according to the venue and recording techniques of the recording itself, single mike recordings usually giving the best illusion of accurate spatial imaging of the actual performance. Depth of individual performers and or instruments should have clearly identifiable spatial locations representing the actual spacing of each in relationship to the other, providing the recording/mastering captures this information. If a system does so, it is not due to some frequency anomaly, but an indicator of reproduction accuracy and largely dependent on the time coherence of the speakers. If depth and spatial information is consistent from recording to recording, then the system is creating the illusion of depth through distortions, whether engineered into the equipment intentionally or not. Accurate reproduction of depth is as important to listener involvement as accurate lateral reproduction (stereo imaging), IMO. Dave |
dlcockrum ... single mike recordings usually giving the best illusion of accurate spatial imaging of the actual performanceHow can you capture depth with just a single microphone? Do you actually think monophonic recordings have better "spatial imaging" than a good stereo - or binaural - recording? |
Single mike recording is not the same thing as monophonic playback, which blends the lateral information into a single source of sound. One microphone captures the spatial information (distances from the microphone) most accurately if done correctly, vs multi-mike recording where the mixing/mastering engineer (hopefully) blends multiple microphone tracks to simulate correct placement of the instruments (this is called "mixing"), too often using artificial reverb or other techniques to do so. Try Cowboy Junkies, "The Trinity Session" to see what I mean. A single-miked live recording (using only a Calrec Ambisonic microphone and mastered but not mixed), yet anything but monaural. If your system does not demonstrate the effects of what I am describing, it is not reproducing depth and spatial information very well. How important or even whether this is important at all to an individual listener is not the subject of my posts. Another great test is the Opus 3 Test Record 1: Depth of Image (CD 7900) and also available on LP IIRC. Dave |
dlcockrum Single mike recording is not the same thing as monophonic playback, which blends the lateral information into a single source of sound.I think this is an issue of semantics. Trinity Session was recorded with a stereo microphone, so calling it a "single mic" effort is a bit confusing. There's nothing inherently advantageous about the Calrec mic used on Trinity Session. Proper stereo X/Y and M/S mic techniques can result in excellent imaging and stereo reproduction. |
@cleeds I didn’t think it was confusing to call a single stereo mic (not mike) a single mic recording. I think maybe you had single mic and mono mic meshed in your mind.. The main point was that a single point for recording sound can lend a more accurate soundstage than multiple mics, where the soundstage is then dependent on the mastering session. |
One thing that is and always will be an inherent limitation of past and current stereo recording/playback technology is directionality, since a MIC (thanks Todd) can’t discern the difference of direction. As a result, the clapping of the crowd on a live recording will always sound as if the crowd is behind the performers, unless the crowd is recorded with a different mic(s) and mixed/mastered correctly. I have never heard a live recording done this way. That implies that some of the ambience information (reflections from the walls/objects of the venue) captured from the "front side" of the mic is being incorrectly reproduced as being part of the ambient information of the opposite side. Ultimately, this may be the final limitation of making our two channel systems suspend disbelief. Thus the (largely unfulfilled IMO) promise of multi-channel audio technology. Dave |
I sold Avalon for over 6 years of time. I also sold it to friends of mine. But....there is a big but. Avalon can create good stage depth and width, but is very limited in individual focus of instruments and voices. This is also an essential part for realistic tangible and intimate focus. This I learned at my friends house were he gave classical concerts. He also owned 3 pairs of Avalon loudspeakers. When I brought a pair of Monitor Audio Pl200 version 1 to his house it blew the Avalons away on each part. Even in stage depth it outperformed the Avalon speakers. He also plays now with the Pl-200 version 1. All Avalon speakers are not able to create a 3D form of an instrument. This is an important part of realism in sound. Monitor Audio was the first brand I found who was able to create a stunning deep and wide stage (wider and deeper than both Wilson and Avalon) and is also able to give the same level of intimate tangible focus of instruments and voices as in real. The new Platinum series II adds diversity in height at a stunning level we never auditioned before. The other stunning part is that the AMT also can create a sound field in front of the loudspeakers. This is a stunning holographic stage what brings you to the space of the recording. Each single part of Tru-Fi I can focus on and I can adapt it. Beside this I did research in electricity, smog, magenetism, diversity in sound and high-frequency noise. Now I understand how they influence the sound and I have many options to improve the sound. All the parts influences also the sound stage. You need to understand all different parts on which sound contains and all the different parts what influences the sound and quality of it. Most people have no idea how much quality they loose based on the fact that they don’t understand what I just told. You can spend 1 million on audio, but you will only be able to use a very small part of the ’real’ quality. Money will not solve it or create a superior sound. That is why I learned to understand each part. And that is why I have done thousands of tests. Perfectionism means there it no room for error. This process never stops. There is 1 thing I can garantee to each single person overhere, a 3-dimensional physical tangible stage with a stunning diversity in sound will make listening to music so addictive. This makes you want listening to music on and on. That is why I will never sell any kind of 2-dimensional sound again in my life. Because for each single person it will be never appealing for a long period of time. This is based on the human emotion. That is why Tru-Fi is based on the human emotion. |
The Rockport speakers also can build a deep and wide stage. Are also good in diversity in height. They also can build the stage beside the loudspeakers. What makes the new Platinum II unique is that they also can build a sound stage in front of the loudspeakers. You hear it back in songs were the Rockport plays them beside the loudspeakers, but the Pl-500 showed an even higher level. Not only is it able to bring an instrument in front of the speaker, it also gives it more a 3D form. There are more brands who can create a good and deep stage. Audio is all about comparing. This is what I love about audio. For a perfectionist it is always about looking for the best. In my world the best is the only one who counts. Monitor Audio gave me the freedom and options to give many people a 3-dimensional experience like I have with more expensive systems. I want a higher level in sound quality and emotion for as many people as possible. I love music and I want other people to have a stunning level as well. It is not based on money, but it is based on properties and understanding how sound works and what influences sound negative. Today I spoke with a person who said that this year many audio brands were not at the CES anymore. In Europe we see the same, and I want to do something to make audio more appealing for more people. The 2D stuff what is sold these days will never make people happy for a long period of time. The only people who become happy are those who sell it. |
| Post removed |
For transparency and openness, no loudspeaker using dynamic drivers is going to equal an electrostatic or ribbon, imo. Magnetic-planars, though perhaps not as transparent as ESL’s, are also very open sounding. None of these will play as loud, go as low in frequency, or be run by as small an amp, as the Wilsons, but ya can’t have everything. Unless you can afford the new Wilson WAMM, assuming it is as good as it had better be for the price! |
The drivers Monitor Audio uses in the Platinum Series II are maybe the fastest you will find in their price range and even far above it. They use ceramic drivers reinforced with aluminum and magnesium. But they even go a lot further. The drivers are in a cylinder and is without a centre hole in the middle of the driver like most other drivers use. This creates a superior timing. People with Electrostatic speakers said. mann this is the speed of an electrostatic speaker. When you hear you will understand how slow the drivers of the Wilson Audio speakers are. The Sasha was not able to show us all the diversity in sound like the Platinum Pl-200 II could reveal. The AMT tweeter shows how limited and outdated dome-tweeters are. For us it is difficult to understand why they are still using dome-tweeters. It is time for Wilson to use faster drivers and tweeters with a frequency response for Hi Res audio. The Sasha showed a lot of difficulties with the high frequencies. The AMT tweeter was laughing to us what kind of difficulties are you talking about? I am not allowed to give details how we create it. We have a huge advantage over all our competitors, I want to keep it this way. Until our competitors are able to think and work in propertires and understand all the parts what influeunces the sound they could compete. It needs many years to test and create a photographic memory in sound and be able to hear all the different parts each single part in an audio system owns. It is a 100% fact that trial and error is like audiogambling. You connect parts togheter and you do not know the properties. So it is one big guess. I spoke in last year to many people who also work in audio for a long time. When I told how I work, they became aware how limited they are. I am sorry for the huge leap I created. It is not my responsibillity that they are so limited. I did it all by myself, we will share it. But people will have to pay for it. That is what we are doing now. For us Monitor Audio owns the properties we want and need. But when you are not able to think and work in properties you never will be able to use all the properties the speakers own. That is why for me it is simple like 1 and 1 is 2 to explain why an audiosystem is incomplete. Almost all systems are incomplete. They miss essential parts of Tru-Fi. You can easilly hear it back in a lower level of emotion and details. It has nothing to do with personal taste. We see that all people understand that it owns a lower level of emotion. Each single person will always choose for that system what owns the highest level of emotion. That is why we work by the human emotion. To all people I can explain it very easilly. I use my system and that of clients to make people clear what is missing. And we never had; I don’t understand what you mean. The distributer of Esoteric said within a few seconds when we connected the Esoteric N-05; stop, this is clear. We first listend to the Lumin S1 ( modified by us) and then we listened to the last song we used with the S1 with the N-05. The difference was huge. This is based on the fact that it is incomplete. The ditributer bought a Lumin D1 with our modifications last week from us. Even this outperfroms the Esoteric N-05 on all parts. Tru-Fi makes it very easy to understand what is missing in an audio system. |
There is actually some truth in bo`s mantra. We have a local dealer here who carries MA line and I can confirm that PL line is capable of magical 3D stage that majority of other brands can`t touch. Despite it is not the absolute best player in all areas as it seem from bo´s postings. I personally feel that PL line from MA sounds a bit light. Nice tonality but it`s missing the energy and dynamics of Focal Utopia and Electra line that I`m also familiar with. |
bo1972 .... It has nothing to do with personal taste. We see that all people understand that it owns a lower level of emotion ...Oh no, it is all about taste, Bo. Because every system is imperfect, it is up to each listener to decide for himself what he prefers. To all people I can explain it very easillyYou haven't shown that here yet! |
There is one big thing you forget, all audio shops work by trial and error. With this the Monitor Audio speakers can sound good, but we can reach a much higher level. In the last 7 years we have many Monitor Audio clients who said: when I would not have met you I think I would not bought Monitor Audio loudspeakers. But the way you work they become without any competition. This difference is huge and brings them to another league. I never met any person who has done thousands and thousands of test to understand all the properties of each single part of an audio system. My clients visited the Platinum Series II demos. They said; even my Platinum Series 1 is superior to this. Trial and error can only use a small level of the whole quality it owns. We can proof this by sound. I have proven this to many people in 9 years of time. That is why I said: I love outperforming. Audio is all about creating the best sound possible. This is what we create. Each single audio system created by Tru-Fi will always outperfrom a system what was created by trial and error. I can proof this by facts. This is what we will demonstrate and proof by Tru-Fi. This is a new approach on audio what creates a superior level in sound quality. |
The human emotion is something what we all own. That is why I focussed on the human emotion. You need to understand how our emotion works and when it occurs. A client of mine was the first who said: tatse does not exist. I thought he was insane He said; you have proven it to me. He is the person who owned the Sasha and he is the one who invented the word Tru-Fi. I first called it: Total Sound. He owned many highend systems. He said: My new system owns a superior level in emotion, details and realism. I could never have created this level with trial and error what I did for a long time. We can proof (we have proven it to many many people) that we can make each audio system more complete. All the reactions are the same. We will put all the reviews of clients on our new website soon. They all experience a much higher level of emotion. They all use their system much more often. They all play longer at the same time. When an audio system can reveal more details and emotion it becomes addictive. |
YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND IT. It has nothing to do with Monitor Audio or any brand. Tru-Fi is based on properties. There are more brands who own the right properties we need and want. Tru-Fi is combining properties togheter. The brand or products are of minor importance than the sound we create. You all think in products and brands. We only think and focus on properties. I will repeat it again: Most of my clients said: when I would have listened to Monitor Audio in audio shops I think I would not have bought it. But the way you create it, it is a sound without any competition. We understand that people have to hear it. We have a maketing specialist who is looking for options to demo it in the US. The webside first will be in my language. Some time later also in english. It will be a total new approach on both sound&vision. We own Sony Professional video stuff, so we will make videos soon. |
Now we have strong recommendations from Bo (and many others) of MA Platinum speakers. Also the Lumin S1 modded by Bo. Clearly, Bo, you feel strongly that you have a secret recipe/method for assembling superior sounding systems that you also feel to be proprietary. Perhaps you do. Audiophiles are a skeptical lot (understatement) and don’t typically trust others to spend their money. Playing "I’ve got a secret" is not very helpful to the audio world. Are you willing to seek out and participate in some hi-end shows such that your setups and their sound quality can be shared with others in a credible way? Until you do that, your mini novels are not going to promote more interest than they already have. The harder you try to sell, the less others will perceive your credibility or value your input. Dave |
YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND IT. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz........oh, I'm sorry, I must have dosed off there for a second. Please bo, could you run that scintillating theory of Tru-Fi by me again???!!! |
Bo...I repeat from a previous post, is an audio zealot. He has found his flavor of audio truth and simply cannot accept that others have taken a different pathway to their audio truth. As Plutos mentioned in his post, "there is some truth to Bo's mantra". Of course the dimensionality of a system is a quality most of us can appreciate. But so to is timbre, pace, soundstage and numerous other characteristics we use to identify when listening to and comparing equipment. Obviously, this dimensionality is a characteristic that resonates with Bo's emotions. Good for him. Just don't be surprised and frustrated that it just might not resonate with everyone the same as it does with you. These are mutually exclusive situations. If I am engaged and drawn into a musical performance for reasons other than dimensionality who are you Bo to tell me that my experience is invalid? Just, lower yourself a little bit from your high horse. |
bo1972YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND IT ...
Yes we don´t understand what this mythical and indeterminate " Tru-Fi " actually is so please explain us what rituals you do that all your systems sound so much better than all others? |
| Post removed |
"He has demonstrated to many manufacturers, distributors and designers of components..." Now we are at the crux of the matter. Where are the testimonials, writings or documentation of thoughts and impressions from these people? Who are they? So far it has been only the evasive ramblings of one whom is the source of these claims. Interestingly, the style and prose of your writing, clearthink, is very similar to Bo's. Dave |
clearthink,
I wonder if some of us become Bo`s client`s, do we all start to think and write exactly same way as Bo? Sadly we have not heard a word about how he measures and applies this magical Tru-Fu spell... |
Wow...have only loosely followed Bo's confused ramblings in the past and with mild amusement. Also have occasionally seen some accuse others in these pages of folks posting under false user ID's...can't recollect ever feeling like they might have been anything more than 'witch hunts' (a we-accuse-you-of-that because-we-can, personal feud kind of thing)...but This... IMO, I'm afraid Clearthink is revealing himself to be, in fact, Bo. Dunno if Bo has ever done anything like this before, and it doesn't matter here really, since the evidence here in my opinion is apparent, blatant I might say for anyone who has eyes to see it (and yes, I know that's just my opinion). Normally I don't resort to accusing people of things I know I can't "prove", but this IS a public forum and I think Bo, for me, has just crossed a line...used to think of him as deranged but harmless - not anymore. I now believe he's revealing himself to be a liar, someone of questionable ethics and someone that is not to be trusted. I think this is the kind of thing the community should not necessarily turn a blind eye toward. Wherever suspicion is evident it should at least be pointed out and recognized and not willingly hidden under the the guise of the fact (and it indeed is a fact at the moment) that this accusation cannot be directly proven...otherwise we are not policing ourselves, despite Bo's implied right (on our soil) to be assumed innocent until proven guilty. But, rightly or wrongly (maybe time will tell) I'm just going on record here and saying that I think that it appears that Bo is being intentionally deceitful here. Like I say, it may not be something that I can prove, but that does not mean that this event, topic or my opinion should not be discussed and I'm willing to do so. This has nothing IMO to do with audio. I know this threatens to hijack the thread for which I apologize in advance, but this may be something of an exceptional circumstance. |
It seems evident to me that Clearthink's excellent command of the English language indicates that he is not Bo. However, regarding Clearthink's statement that: He is being generous by contributing here to share his knowledge about Tru-Fi and the way it can be applied using properties to music reproduction systems and installations.... as far as I can recall, having read many of Bo's posts, he has never provided definitions of Tru-Fi or what he refers to as "properties" that are specific enough to be of any practical usefulness. Regards, -- Al |
It has nothing to do with a personal taste. People in audio think and believe the best way of creating an audio system is based on personal preference. Until januari 2016 I believed this as well. But a client convinced me that personal taste does not make sense. It took many conversations before I understood and I agreed with him. I thought for a long time the same way. But research (People have no idea how addicted I am in music and sound. Almost each day I create new things in my head to improve it. This is also like an addiction. So I test new things) We all agree that emotion is what we want to experience during listening to our beloved music. People who use tubes think and believe that with tubes they create a more musical and emotional sound. I have proven to people who own highend tube amps and pre amps that my sound had more layers and a higher level of emotion. A tube colours the sound in the whole freq. range. The emotion is inside the music and not in an audio system. So you need to understand how you can reveal all the information of a recording. A tube will not give you more information. It will create a pleasant sound. But diversity is sound is a different thing. This is the key to experience realism and emotion during listening to music. At this moment of writing diversity in sound is the biggest problem and limitation in audio in general. Almost all streamers/networkplayers are not able to create diversity in sound. This is the main reason why cd-players are stil being sold. In amps we see and hear the same kind of limitations. People who create new products are often not able to understand how instruments and voices sounds in real. And how they are projected and how big they are in proportion. It took me many years to be able to hear the DNA of each single part of an audio system. In 1998 I thought that if I want to understand sound I need to separate all the properties it owns. This is what I inproved during time. Doing thousands of test is easy when you are addicted to it. It has become my second nature. It does not cost a lot of energy. In 2016 I have done a lot of reseach on parts what influences audio systems negative. - the acoustics, we want to share Statement Audio Pro-measurement with manufacturers this year. This way many people can go to a much higher level in sound than what is possible at this moment. - smog, people have no idea how huge and negative this is on a system. I can limit this for a big part. - magnetism also has a huge negative influence on the sound. It occurs in cables, amps, sources, speakers and even in conditioners. I can limit this also for a big part. - High frequent noise, also had a big negative influence on the sound. Again with different tools I can limit this as well. - In 2015 and 2016 we did a lot of research in electricity. Here we also made big steps. I will never share this for free. I spend a lot of time and it gave me a huge leap against all my competitors. Do your own research and I wish you goodluck. We also use different lasers and digital level devices. I learned to use them at different ways. I will never share this. With vision we work the same way. Here we also can outperform any company in sound&vision. What I said before I love competition. I always want to win and create a superior quality compared to the best there is. Only the best is what counts, 2nd best is for losers. I understand that it sounds hard to others. I do everything for my clienst to give them the best quality possible. It always needs to be superior to all competitors. |
