Will China become the poor man’s dealer for high end audio?
With the insane prices now being asked for audio equipment from manufacturers around the globe is china going to fill in the gap between the haves and have-nots.? We are already seeing some signs of this with manufacturers like Jays Audio and Denafrips offering product-performance prices below global market value. The only thing I see holding them back is they will always be one leg behind the rest of the world since they copy most of the technology they use and world wide acceptance.
The original question is about now and the future. History from hundreds of years ago is a broader topic involving context to understand how and why. I put more value in first hand experience of the last 20 years. There is a common theme related by people that have spent time in China doing business. The average person is hard working and willing to learn a skill in order to build a better life. A better life means elevating themselves to achieve a higher goal of elevating the country of China. Higher education is reserved for those showing potential as defined by the government.
Also, directly from people doing business is that China is very good at copying, including mistakes. In Engineering classes Chinese students frequently held the highest GPAs, knowing that number would determine job assignment when returning home. They were very good at memorizing and taking tests. Applying book learning to practical situations was a weakness. In laboratory work, most Chinese students fell to just average. Some did not have the common sense to keep their fingers out of live electrical circuits.
Can Chinese companies compete in high end HiFi gear. Yes, but not with innovation.
You judged more than one billion people by anecdotes and ridiculous affirmation..
I posted a serious AUSTRALIAN studies demonstrating innovation..
I dont post propaganda or prejudices...
Incredible... 😊
Applying book learning to practical situations was a weakness. In laboratory work, most Chinese students fell to just average. Some did not have the common sense to keep their fingers out of live electrical circuits.
Can Chinese companies compete in high end HiFi gear. Yes, but not with innovation.
Why poor man's. Why not everyman's. They've done so with much else.
Japan come from rubble to superpower by a combination of copying and innovation. Same with South Korea. Now China is doing it. While we sit on our laurels.
It is refreshing to read a post not born from a prejudice...
Why poor man's. Why not everyman's. They've done so with much else.
Japan come from rubble to superpower by a combination of copying and innovation. Same with South Korea. Now China is doing it. While we sit on our laurels.
For about a year now, I have hung back and just read the various threads, etc. There is a ton of really impressive "on topic" knowledge here. I have learned a lot. Seriously. Then today I get to read this drivel:
"Democrats and people from Detroit and Fauci create much more damage for the US than any Chinese or Russian."
The post containing this should have been deleted, not because it is pathetically ignorant (which it is) or to deny anyone's first amendment rights, but because it simply does not belong here, IMHO. It really demeans the forum. No, I am not "triggered" or "offended" but simply calling out the crap.
OK, back to your regularly scheduled programming....thanks for listening...
Nowadays instead of arguments and thinking , people get offended...They ask for censorship...
Someone go in and his first post is to accuse someone of offensing him..
The last three years demonstrated a complete negation of democracy and medecine freedom with a scandal which manifest now slowly worldwide... In spite of a total banishment of information and discussion in all official medias...
And some are offended WITHOUT giving any argument as if their opinion was absolute truth, as if in others opinion there can be not even an ounce of truth...
Easy to ignore posts. I recently had a post pulled referencing Dr F. My point was that cloaking an argument under the umbrella of “science” doesn’t necessarily make the assertion true, nor end discussion. In this thread, by necessity the discussion involves projecting the future by looking at where we are now. What should never happen is personal attacks. Attack my position, but not me. Everyone new from the first post that this would be a bit of a controversial thread. Ok, see you elsewhere.
You are funny.......I was not offended at all. As to avoiding arguments or thinking, my "opinion" is that this is not a forum to argue about Fauci, Democrats, Republicans, etc. Maybe as only a "one time poster" I incorrectly assumed this was a forum regarding audio and that which is related to same. Who knows, maybe "Fauci" is a band new tube amp I am not yet familiar with.....if so, my bad....
But being offended manifest itself by a REACTION and and APPEAL against someone post or argument or person...
Instead of being offended give argument as i did when i am not ok with a post...As i did in this thread where some spoke their prejudices ...
I dislike censorship so much, i dont think that giving an opinion about anything in an audio thread can be BANNED...
i like friendship... This means discussion even with people with we are in complete opposition... Discussion with RATIONAL arguments are interesting... Offended people are not helpful nor interesting... Be offended but give a counter argument and dont ask for censorship of any kind... I dont want to live in China CCP at all...
OK, hopefully last on the topic. I assure you, I was not offended. Maybe it is just me, but I can react to things, in varying degrees, personally or professionally, without offense taken. I can also offer recommendations, suggest actions etc, personally or professionally w/out offense. We may differ in opinions on censorship. I simply am not interested in engaging in debate regarding medical/political issues here (emphasis added). Elsewhere, sure, assuming I'm in the mood.
I too prefer friendship, camaraderie, etc. I was rooting for you in past posts, calling out what I felt was bigotry. Thanks for your apology, however it was not needed. Maybe I will join further discussions.
My current audio issue is whether to buy Thiel 1.6's or 2.2's to upgrade my system. Thoughts?
My current audio issue is whether to buy Thiel 1.6's or 2.2's to upgrade my system. Thoughts?
@johnnotkathi Might be better to start a new post for this so you get more and possibly more targeted responses. That said, I haven’t heard the 2.2 (or 2 2) but had the 1.6es in my system on an extended demo and thought they sounded superb. Obviously the 1.6 incorporated the more updated of Jim’s thinking, design, and driver technology that might push me in that direction. They’re on the smaller side and won’t produce the lower dynamics that’ll blow you outta your chair, but everything from there on up is supremely transparent and enticing. And obviously the 3D imaging/soundstage is mesmerizing. Hope this helps at least somewhat.
I'm a British audio guy, engineered, designed and made in the UK. Most of what I own is UK made. Yes, some of what I own, the ancillary equipment, is made in China, hard to avoid.
You judged more than one billion people by anecdotes and ridiculous affirmation..
NO, NO, NO @mahgister. You jumped to that grossly exaggerated assumption and then go completely off the rails adding "anecdotes" and "ridiculous affirmation". Did not say China is incapable of innovation in any field, only high end audio. There are very few true innovators worldwide in audio.
I stated FACT from first hand college experience and discussion with multiple people doing business in China. I will take first hand experience from credible people over studies any day.
You have different FIRST HAND experience to offer not produced by others, let's hear it.
High end audio is a specialized niche and i dont know about it in China...
My point Is about your caricature:
In laboratory work, most Chinese students fell to just average. Some did not have the common sense to keep their fingers out of live electrical circuits.
I stated FACT from first hand college experience and discussion with multiple people doing business in China. I will take first hand experience from credible people over studies any day.
I will trust more a study done by a serious group in Australia, which is not friend of China AT ALL , about chinese leadership in many high tech fieldsover gossip presented as facts..
You speak as someone who could say with the same kind of prejudices that all americans are without tact nor education and despise anything which is non american ... Saying that about ALL americans would be a gross caricature , even if someone add that he learned this in college discussion and with serious people doinf business in America ...Saying that china is unable to became creative even in high end audio is a CARICATURE, not a fact..
Anyway your opinion are yours...me i only know history and studies about China as the australian one...
There is CREATIVITY in all countries where people can eat and be educated... This is FACT...
You speak as someone who could say with the same kind of prejudices that all americans are without tact nor education and despise anything which is non american ... Saying that about ALL americans would be a gross caricature , even if someone add that he learned this in college discussion and with serious people doinf business in America ...Saying that china is unable to became creative even in high end audio is a CARICATURE, not a fact..
@mahgisterRespectfully, you need to read my words again and not bring along your own prejudice and bias. First hand experience is the foundation of my statements. Nothing you say has any bearing on my actual face to face experience. Really presumptuous and arrogant to claim my experience is a caricature. You have a different first hand experience, fine, let's hear it.
Creativity, that you newly introduce, is different than innovation. Innovation is a completely different approach to design or manufacturing. Creativity is a broad brush, ill defined terminology.
It’s not uncommon to see certain Chinese hifi brands that care rate very highly compared to other way more expensive options so I don’t see anything to indicate the Chinese are behind on any way. Like any other country the product quality vary the full spectrum from cheap as h-ll to top rated.
The original question is about now and the future. History from hundreds of years ago is a broader topic involving context to understand how and why. I put more value in first hand experience of the last 20 years. There is a common theme related by people that have spent time in China doing business. The average person is hard working and willing to learn a skill in order to build a better life. A better life means elevating themselves to achieve a higher goal of elevating the country of China. Higher education is reserved for those showing potential as defined by the government.
Also, directly from people doing business is that China is very good at copying, including mistakes. In Engineering classes Chinese students frequently held the highest GPAs, knowing that number would determine job assignment when returning home. They were very good at memorizing and taking tests. Applying book learning to practical situations was a weakness. In laboratory work, most Chinese students fell to just average. Some did not have the common sense to keep their fingers out of live electrical circuits.
Can Chinese companies compete in high end HiFi gear. Yes, but not with innovation.
I can also make similar assertions. I worked with a lot of technical folks in Silicon Valley for a decade. A lot of these folks were FOB from China (some went back to China to form business and innovate). In my experience the Chinese were some of the most brilliant and creative minds I worked with. I guess based on my experience I can conclude that all billion Chinese are incredibly talented and innovative.
In the book "The New World Order", it predicts that the US is loosing its place in the world with China quickly. overtaking....to be followed by India. Enjoy
Anecdotes has a meaning generally when a long history confirm them...
Free speech has a long history for example here in America, then if someone claims that American are all for censorship and dare not to think their mind and speak it because someone experienced the opposite anecdotally, this anecdote cannot erase the historical fact of the principle of free speech and infirm it... Especially when others anecdote confirm the historical facts...
History teach us how to think.... It is the reason why without a sense of history , so general it may be it is IMPOSSIBLE to think clearly...
How do you relate meanings across fields without history in the short and longer term ?
Thanks for your post which is corroborated by history...
I can also make similar assertions. I worked with a lot of technical folks in Silicon Valley for a decade. A lot of these folks were FOB from China (some went back to China to form business and innovate). In my experience the Chinese were some of the most brilliant and creative minds I worked with. I guess based on my experience I can conclude that all billion Chinese are incredibly talented and innovative.
Korea has been in interaction with China for millenias and with Japan too...
Diplomatically and with wars periods in succession...
Confucean culture and not only Buddhism pervade Korean history...
If the chinese could not innovate themselves , and if the chinese were those who taught Korea about philosophy and technology all along his history , how can Koreans can produce the greatest breakthrough in SCIENCE and APPLIED technology for the decades to come just NOW ?
If koreans can be creative and innovate , chinese are able too... Simple deduction direct from history...
It is a bit more important than a new refined amplifier by the way ...
For those who know how to read this is my news from five days ago :
We must wait for the confirmation of these experiments...
But if it is proven , this is the greatest revolution to come, thanks to Koreans...
This is ONLY an example...
People who criticize China as being unable to innovate are ignorant of history so much , they dont even know the lineage of relation between Korea and China through millenias... Do you think this psychical bond is erased by 70 years of capitalism and American influence in South Korea ?
The same ignorance expressing the opinion that China is unable to innovate had forgot that Taiwan is a CHINESE culture and country...If not politically right now by all other links..
For the first time in the world, we succeeded in synthesizing the room-temperature superconductor (Tc≥400 K, 127∘C) working at ambient pressure with a modified lead-apatite (LK-99) structure. The superconductivity of LK-99 is proved with the Critical temperature (Tc), Zero-resistivity, Critical current (Ic), Critical magnetic field (Hc), and the Meissner effect. The superconductivity of LK-99 originates from minute structural distortion by a slight volume shrinkage (0.48 %), not by external factors such as temperature and pressure. The shrinkage is caused by Cu2+ substitution of Pb2+(2) ions in the insulating network of Pb(2)-phosphate and it generates the stress. It concurrently transfers to Pb(1) of the cylindrical column resulting in distortion of the cylindrical column interface, which creates superconducting quantum wells (SQWs) in the interface. The heat capacity results indicated that the new model is suitable for explaining the superconductivity of LK-99. The unique structure of LK-99 that allows the minute distorted structure to be maintained in the interfaces is the most important factor that LK-99 maintains and exhibits superconductivity at room temperatures and ambient pressure.
«The Thiyaga Hybrid Integrated amplifier consists of a preamplifier section designed around a pair of 6n2p vacuum tubes driving a solid state power amplifier section that puts out 180 watts at 8ohms with a THD specification of 0.02% at 1KHz. »
Funny how bright, innovative, creative and industrial Americans fall for so many dog whistles, not seeing what's going on in their own country, as it slides towards a system that would parallel what they complain about in China.
The “State of the Air” 2023 report finds that after decades of progress on cleaning up sources of air pollution, nearly 36% of Americans—119.6 million people—still live in places with failing grades for unhealthy levels of ozone or particle pollution.
If some have their way, it'll get even worse, but by that time we're all gonna be frogs slowly boiling in that pot.
After all that i have said about chinese people creativity, i want to be clear now , the CCP is not china , but an abominable dictatorship of the worst kind imposed upon china... There is no choice nor any freedom in China... I hope to be clear...
Some here will never get it through their heads that Taiwan is the true China and the mainland is just a Communist charade. Generalities need not apply.
Will China become the poor man’s dealer for high end audio?
Remember all, that was the original question. Not does China have a long and rich history. Not a question even remotely connected to the entire population of China. Not a question related to Chinese capability in other areas of technology, real or imaginary proposed in a study.
Innovation has been thrown around as a talking point. An overused term diluted by legions of marketing departments. Tweaking well established designs is not innovation. Combining old and new technology (tubes and solid state) is not innovation. Flashy packaging is not innovation. Real innovation is solving a problem or need with a new, different, and never done before approach.
Topping has made a name with good measuring products that are inexpensive. Is that innovation? NO. Simply cutting costs to the minimum, particularly labor and quality. Cost more to repair a failure than just buy a new unit. Better, Faster, Cheaper - pick any two remains true.
Denafrips has been well received for performance and quality in the mid-Fi zone. Claims of hand matched components. Hardly any innovation there. R2R DAC, done before. Also, not clear whether Denafrips is really a Chinese company. Made in China certainly.
Is there an existing Chinese Hi End Audio company? Is there???
After all that i have said about chinese people creativity, i want to be clear now , the CCP is not China , but an abominable dictatorship of the worst kind imposed upon china... There is no choice nor any freedom in China... I hope to be clear...
There it is, the elephant in the room @mahgister finally mentioned. If something is important to the CCP, it will happen. If not important to the CCP, not likely to happen.
Is it important to the CCP to have a competitive Hi End Audio industry? By competitive, that means more than a couple companies allowed to exist simply for CCP PR purposes.
Is it important to the CCP to have a competitive Hi End Audio industry? By competitive, that means more than a couple companies allowed to exist simply for CCP PR purposes.
The CCP is busy with piloting long term geopolitics and silk road project...
It dont gives a damn about Audio...If you are a model silent consumers , you can buy what you want ...
My posts were there against the idiotic claims and prejudices expressed here against chinese culture... The CCP is NOT chinese culture...The nazi nor the soviet were german and russian culture...
Is there audio High -END company innovative in China ?
Probably some few in their beginnings...
It takes how many years for a company to be born , amass enough capitals to invest in research ?
10 to 20 years...
AKG or Sansui dont grew wings and enough funds to create their amplifiers and top Headphones in few years...
The real opening to a market economy begun after Deng xiao Ping ...In 1994 ...
The real "bourgeois" class out of poverty able to buy high-end audio did not exist before and begin to grow 20 years ago...
Then innovation in high-end audio will come to light in the next decade, beginning now...
It is simple to see that without bashing one billion people creativity ...China was in mass hungers period before 1990... China comes out of that completely after 2000...
Audio high-end need enough CONSUMERS with enough money... This exist only for the last decade...
High-end audio begin now in China...And their high-end first products are sold in an internal small market in Shangai or other big cities in all probabilities ...
They will not beat South Korea and Japan high-end next week...
Then apart from the narrow mind prejudices against any country creativity directed against china here i killed with my speficic references, the question of the OP is answered by some posts who said the same as me : audio high end business need a critical mass of consumers, enough demand , and an history that takes 10 to 20 years to amass enough research fund to INNOVATE...
Wait few years and see...
By the way a company as Hidizs punch over the ratio S.Q./price minimal qualities...
They need time to innovate... It is born few years ago and already well known..
«Hidizs products have garnered several prestigious professional certifications, including Japan Hi-Res Audio, Hi-Res Audio wireless, Sony LDAC, and MQA. Additionally, our dedication to excellence has been recognized by winning the VGP Golden Prize for three consecutive years (2019, 2020, 2021). Notably, Hidizs's renowned classics, the AP80 & AP80 Pro, secured a remarkable 7th place at the Yearly Best Earphones Sales Award in Japan from 2018 to 2021.»
Then what do you want ?
I already own this dap/dac/portable/battery/bank/equalizer which is the smallest in size for under 200 bucks...
«Such critiques strike a familiar chord with Jonathan Halpern, who has dealt in audiophile gear for 25 years, the last 17 with his own distribution company, Tone Imports. Just a few decades ago, he recalls, Japanese audio equipment was derided as shoddy and derivative, with legitimate criticism tainted by racially charged language. But, said Mr. Halpern, over time Japanese brands evolved from derivative to innovative, and are now widely considered to produce some of the world’s best high-end audio equipment. Many of these Chinese companies could be following a similar course, he says.»
It seems not only history , and my referenced Australian study in my above post on china high tech , proved chinese creativity , but in audio too , the story has already begun..
My posts were there against the idiotic claims and prejudices expressed here against chinese culture... The CCP is NOT chinese culture...The nazi nor the soviet were german and russian culture...
@mahgister You are the one that erroneously conflated simple factual statements about face to face experience related to specific situations into a gross slur against an entire population. Nothing of the sort happened, except in your imagination.
You are the one that introduced the CCP. Now you want to backtrack as if the CCP has no influence on the lives and future of the population.
You have created a mountain out of a mole hill with long rambling posts full of virtue signaling, feigned outrage, and tone of intellectual superiority.
I answered to some poster expressing prejudice ...
I dont know where i backtrack...China is not CCP...
I say the same thing from the beginning...
But sometimes i posted a bit too much... You are right...about that point..😊
My posts were informative at least...
And i answered clearly about the question asked..
And sorry anecdotes are not facts...
I posted an australian study about high tech status in China.. This is better than anecdotes or face to face few people with their opinions..
Now compare my posts to this :
They were very good at memorizing and taking tests. Applying book learning to practical situations was a weakness. In laboratory work, most Chinese students fell to just average. Some did not have the common sense to keep their fingers out of live electrical circuits.
Can Chinese companies compete in high end HiFi gear. Yes, but not with innovation.
I accept your critic about my numerous posts...
But posts as your created my reaxction...
Then i can apologize because you are not wrong completely about my reaction...
But your post is a caricatural PREJUDICE... Not expression of facts...
Then buy a mirror and look at your own prejudice...
Myself I apologize for my strong reaction not for my content...
Then if i read your own post expressing gross prejudice, i prefer to be classified in the " intellectual superiority" pretenses side instead of on your side... Sorry to say so...
And remembering long chinese creativity in history is not virtue signaling...It is simple fact we cannot forgot BEFORE judging chinese as not innovative as you SPECIFICALLY wrote..
I posted too much... You are right on that ... Thats all...
At least some of the people reading my post will learn something... Intellectual superiority or not ... 😊
By the way because you did not have any real arguments you attacked me now personally in my posts...
Take your own part of this tempest in a cup of water... Admit that you expressed only prejudice... Instead of attacking me... I answered your post by facts...
Not sure why so many people feel the need to downplay what China is able to offer in the way of high quality equipment. Making blanket statements about how they will never compete with equipment assembled in the good old USA, although said equipment is made mostly from parts produced in good old China. Because we don't get the same negative stereotypes about equipment made in Germany, Canada or the United Kingdom, one can only assume that they are judged by a different standard.
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