There’s a certain member here, I think we all know who I am talking about, who continues to be little everyone else here with their rude and condescending remarks. He continually tries to insult and creat strife and division. It is not healthy for productive conversations or for the site. Why will the moderators allow this poison to ruin the site? They are turning people off from coming here and trying to start positive, useful content.
It’s a cancer that should be removed otherwise it’s going to have detrimental effects on this site. Is that so hard to understand for the moderators?
Tammy is so incredibly helpful but I don’t understand why this negative behavior is allowed to continue and fester...
People have to face the offensive poster themselves and tell them what is wrong. Hittin the report button is kind of lame. There are a lot of nerdy tech alpha dogs around here, so you can expect this kind of behavior (the premise is "I know everything and you are full of s@#t"). Insecure audiophiles who think they are Robert Harley or something. The worst thing that can happen is a topic started about special snowflakes. That will teach them. I have been around here for 3 months, but I know allready which comments to skip.
It’s a shame, so many gun forums have all this censorship. The constitution is being crapper’d on all the time.
I’m NOT for censorship! its against the constitution. As every forum I’ve been to call themselves a “family oriented” forum, that is bollox. It’s more control. This is a very good audio forum, I like it a lot!
so people are mean, and say bad things. So what, don’t be a puff, if your pu*** hurts, then don’t read it. So sick of the PC culture, and all it stands for!
if your easily hurt, too bad!! So sick of this great country , turning into a puff society.
There are "tools" everywhere, not just on this forum but nearly all of them. But, I don't take forum slams personally because "I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me."
IT IS CALLED FREE SPEECH . . . DEVELOP A THICKER SKIN, AND IF YOU DON’T AGREE WITH THEIR IDEOLOGY OR “POLITICALLY INCORRECT” COMMENT -- DEBATE IT! STOP BEING SUCH A WOOSE AND DEVELOP A PAIR!
I agree. Debating these things is constructive not destructive.
I’d love to have at it here with others on these topics. But I know it offends many and is usually off topic so I attempt to enact restraint, not always successfully.
Good manners means consideration for ALL and is NOT a political thing.
I lot has to do with how one conducts and presents oneself regardless of the topic. Destructive behaviors like obvious trolling for example is the thing to not tolerate.
"Analogy time: if I owned a pizza shop and had someone standing in front
of my door telling all my customers that pizza all over the world
sucks, and that they are stupid for eating pizza, and that no one can
really make a good pizza, I’d call the cops on him and have him removed." Depending on the country, you might be disappointed to find that if he is in public space, that you cannot do that! Just because you don't like an opinion does not legally mean that it cannot be spoken.
(And no, I am not defending truly abusive posts, but rather the fact that I feel that a lot of folks are way too intolerant, and instead of simply skipping that content or ignoring that user, they choose to attempt to dominate that individual with *their* point of view, which may or may not be any more or less valid. My view: Let 'em speak, and skip/block what you can't cope with . . . ).
I never understood the parameters or standards by which we need to abide here. A few weeks ago, I posted a hilarious thread, overly obvious not to be taken seriously. I was dying to read the responses from the members. And some did get through. And sure enough, they were very funny. But then there was one, one that got offended. One little fragile flower that had to run and tell on me. And sure enough, the thread was removed, even though there have been countless threads that involved very offensive and aggressive responses and behavior. I just don't get it.
“Also interesting to note that of the top offenders I’ve seen... they aren’t here defending themselves. It’s a nice respite from them, actually. This is probably the only current thread where they aren’t spreading hate, condescension and general blather.”
Interesting observation indeed, at least this holds true for couple of posters with 20 plus posts each day.
"But make no mistake about it: the overall quality of the discourse in this forum has slowly degraded in the past two years or so (to the point of generating threads like this)".
I've been a member since 2003. After lurking for a while I chimed in as a newby with a question about whether cables really made a difference and, if so, why. What followed was a spirited debate among sincere, passionate hobbyists--some with strong technical backgrounds, others with years of experience swapping gear and experiences with others. The conversation never got personal, egos were restrained, ideas and opinions welcomed or politely rebutted. The thread went on for so long and went so far over my head that one of the participants, a cable manufacturer, sent me a 1M pair of ICs to try and keep so I could decide for myself.
Subsequent posts followed a similar pattern. No judgement, ridicule or attitude directed at my inquiries or at others who made honest, gracious efforts to help educate and elevate the hobby. What has happened here is merely a reflection of what is going on across society. Narcissism, cruelty, egotism, and attitude reign supreme. I rarely read or post anymore--in the last few years the balance has tipped from occasional disappointment in the direction of certain threads to a nearly uniform pattern--post, torch, retaliate, repeat. The number of threads that offer enlightenment are few and far between. Many are just posturing and scoring points. Not sure what the answer is but if I were new to the site I would hesitate to join the fray. Too bad since most people predict this hobby is going to die and forums like these have the potential to attract new enthusiasts and expand interest. If only......
@russmaleartist Since you've not been reading what preceeded your post, in fact there isn't 'FREE SPEECH' here or on almost any forum. The forums are on a website that is owned by someone and you have to abide by their posting rules, and those rules do not allow for unlimited free speech.
Trolling, as in the case of the topic of this thread, is the sort of thing that many forums do not allow.
IT IS CALLED FREE SPEECH . . . DEVELOP A THICKER SKIN, AND IF YOU DON’T AGREE WITH THEIR IDEOLOGY OR “POLITICALLY INCORRECT” COMMENT -- DEBATE IT! STOP BEING SUCH A WOOSE AND DEVELOP A PAIR!
DeKay started an ironic April Fools Day thread titled, "Who are your favorite A'gon posters?", nominating Kenjit and Millercarbon right up front. Over half the responders didn't get it, and posted serious responses.
Part of learning to read this forum is identifying the posters likely to impart useful (or at least interesting) information, and the ones you would set up to send to your trash folder automatically, if that were an option.
@atmasphere wrote: " Just for the record, most forums don’t allow free speech as stated in their guidelines when you agree to their terms and conditions to be on the forum."
Also interesting to note that of the top offenders I've seen... they aren't here defending themselves. It's a nice respite from them, actually.
Agreed. It's tough to defend pervasive, condescending blather that is often riddled with misinformation. Furthermore, this person is routinely able to expunge the written record by deleting posts that proffer nonsensical advice. Just look how many posts he deletes because he doesn't want to have to defend the utter nonsense he directs after he gets called on the carpet - afterall, he has a brand and agenda to defend and if revealed for the sham that he is he will lose influence over those easily bullied.
The key is to use the report this button as needed to report rule violations. Mods do not have the ability it seems to assure that the rules are adhered to otherwise so all should use the tools provided to assist. Once an offending post is made it’s inevitable that others will follow. If you care about the site content you have to use the tools provided to enforce the rules. Hopefully enough care to hep make it a better place
Also interesting to note that of the top offenders I've seen... they aren't here defending themselves. It's a nice respite from them, actually. This is probably the only current thread where they aren't spreading hate, condescension and general blather. Tells me that they know who they are.
Admin Audiogon Official05-06-2020 8:03pm @b_limo There really is no need for a thread like this. If something or someone is troubling you can you send me an email tosupport@audiogon.com, attention: Tammy
Sorry to disagree, Tammy. But, I think it's something that should be said, and publicly if only to see that there are many people who feel this way. Personally, I'm no longer reading nearly as often as I did a year ago, and have basically stopped participating. It's because of the know-it-all people who seem to have an agenda, and if you say anything to disagree with their agenda, you are personally attacked.
There was a time when you could participate in an informed, educational discussion here. But, now, within the first 5 posts, most threads are derailed by one particular person, and sometimes several people who chime in and start arguing with each other and others in the thread. I've given up, and take my energy and enthusiasm elsewhere. Or, I just turn on the music and forget about AG.
Honestly, I think this forum's attitude has gotten out of hand, and I believe it has hurt the participation, and it would not surprise me if it also has hurt overall selling here too. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one here who feels this way. You can see the impact if you follow a few threads... the OP asks, people chime in, the Loudners show up, and OP stops participating, and thread devolves. It's just not welcoming any longer.
Just for the record, most forums don't allow free speech as stated in their guidelines when you agree to their terms and conditions to be on the forum.
Kenjit seems to be trolling audiogon- his posts are textbook examples. Not only are his OPs trolling, so are all of his succeeding posts in any thread.
I am a moderator on another site FWIW. Nearly all forum sites have rules like no religious or political comments, no swearing, no name calling, no trolling, no spam and so on. Some sites don't even allow the use of symbols to simulate swearing! So if anyone is disabused of the idea that there is free speech here, there isn't, plain and simple. There is speech that falls within the guidelines of the rules of the site.
Continuing to violate the forum rules can result in being banned. That's not free speech. You have to follow the rules since this is on a privately-owned site, like most sites.
Now take a look at my second paragraph above. Under forum rules, I cannot call anyone names or be abusive. But in the second paragraph by the use of the word 'seems' I made sure that I wasn't calling him a troll; this was to allow this post to stand according to the rules. A good moderator will see that this is treading a fine line, but that's how its done if you want a post to stand.
I don't mind the array of know it alls,that is expected in a forum so technically focused. I object to people who reply to a post completely off topic and hijack so there people start to answer their post as if it were the subject. Fortunately there are some serious people who offer some genuine help and I thank them most.
When people are rude, it needs to be dealt with and not ignored. Bad behavior unchecked is how things people care about deteriorate. Sometimes the only recourse is an eye for an eye. Good manners alone sometimes have no effect.
I would be for Audiogon implementing the ability to suspend people for a period of time for bad behavior. Send them to their room! If they come back with more of the same give em' the boot. It's a privilege to use resources like this provided by others not a right.
Of course if the person generates a lot of business here, not likely to be rebuffed. It is a business site fist after all.
If you use the report feature, you should post a statement in the thread stating your actions and intent. When a post is removed the standard Audiogon statement is very open ended and the poster might not understand why their post is being scrutinized. Sometimes we all need a little guidance.
hartf36 And I have read some relatively recent comments of a political bent that I would have LOVED to have taken a blowtorch to (yes, it’s permissible to end a sentence with a preposition).
>>>>Well, technically, you didn’t end the sentence with a preposition. You ended it with the word preposition.
I've been a registered member for four years, have been much more of a reader than a poster, and have gotten much useful information from this site. For that I thank all of you who have either knowingly or unknowingly provided it. But make no mistake about it: the overall quality of the discourse in this forum has slowly degraded in the past two years or so (to the point of generating threads like this). I have my own theory for this social phenomenon and shall reserve it for myself, but the degradation I've witnessed and speak of has been - IMO - instigated by a very small number (counted on one hand)
of individuals. It's certainly gotten to the point where I spend less time here.
That said, lets not make the mistake of equating removal of comments made in violation of clearly established forum rules
(or, in extreme cases, removal of members) with "censorship". Again - IMO - measured, evenly meted moderation is a very useful tool to maintaining the integrity of a forum such as this. In fact, it's critical. However, if oblique, political snark is going to be allowed here on Agon......then count me in. I love a good political snark-fest as much as the next guy, and believe me when I tell you - I can throw down with the very best of them. And I have read some relatively recent comments of a political bent that I would have LOVED to have taken a blowtorch to (yes, it's permissible to end a sentence with a preposition). I would simply ask that any ensuing moderation be even-handed. Should this be the case, it doesn't take a genius-level IQ to conjure up the very swift devolution of Agon discourse in one's mind.
If, OTOH, it is to be avoided at all cost and considered a violation of forum rules (which is, frankly, how I've understood the Agon State of Affairs to be all along) then by all means treat it as such. If some members simply can't communicate in any way but a clearly offensive manner (be it politically offensive, religiously offensive or personally offensive - and lets be honest - as adults, we can recognize "offensive" when we see it, and distinguish it from "ambiguous", so no need for games) then perhaps a timeout is in order for a remedial, Interpersonal Communications 101 course - regardless of how much they think they know or what wealth of information they benevolently "provide" this space.
I think this is a good discussion and I am glad that it hasn't been deleted. I am more of a lurker, but I will post if I have direct knowledge or have a question that search doesn't answer to my satisfaction. The sad thing about the poster
(I think)
you are referencing is that the person has knowledge and has been helpful(even to me in a PM.) It is sad when that gets cluttered with the other stuff.
In general I prefer less moderation, I am a strong advocate of free speech. But I agree that sometimes it is needed if someone is constantly abusive or derailing every thread. I am pretty good at ignoring people.
Just a few comments based on my experience on the forum in the past five months.
I’ve used the report button once.
amg56 is right to ask that we stay on an OP’s topic — at least initially — but some tangents go to really interesting places.
"Friction" is how we challenge one another’s misconceptions or faulty reasoning. But b_limo is right to call out those who cross the line into meanness or pettiness. Still, before I hit the report button, I try really hard to be charitable to see if the style of the response is intending to instruct. (But many of your are right that there are unquestionably cases or occasional patterns that betray malign intent.)
While this is not something to censor, I tend to skip past posts which answer a question by merely mentioning a product they happen to have bought. Unless a list has been called for by the OP, shouting out gear names without reasons is a big time-waste. (Even a little history -- "I had A, then, B, then C, and C was better for x, y reasons" -- mitigates this problem.)
As lg1 points out, I don’t like to be harangued because I asked a question that’s been asked before — I do try to research my questions before taking people’s time up with them. That said, some posters have been very helpful by gently reminding me to go look at an earlier thread. That’s been great, and if that ends the thread for my own post, that’s just fine. I’m really posting to get answers, mostly. not just shoot the sh*t.
One thing which has kept me on the forum is that in the few times I was flamed for my question, I just held my tongue and then others came in and redirected the conversation back to my OP. There are some good sheepdogs around here — and I’ve typically sent them a private message thanking them. This has lead to some nice private exchanges for me.
Final opinion, I really decry irrelevant political commentary and sniping. One thing which has been a true godsend to me about audio is the apolitical nature of it. It relaxes me to be, for once, in a space where politics won’t crash in and set tempers flaring. It’s also reassuring for me to think that someone who’s political views I’d disagree with could nevertheless teach me something about audio — that we have common ground, after all.
Read their post or not the choice is yours. Don’t be sensitive it’s just a opinion site. We all know the saying on opinions. I am not bothered by the self proclaimed audio gods. In fact sometimes I find them quite humorous.
Why cant anybody make a perfect set of speakers? I mean a REALLY perfect set? One that EVERYBODY likes one and all. They should be built with 6 drivers, 3 front facing and 3 rear facing, have solid gold wiring, concrete cases and cost $200 each.
Trolling is utterly pointless and I think it is too much to expect the moderators to jump in all the time to stop it. Rarely, I have had some very critical posts about me and it is unpleasant, but we are all big girls and boys, so suck it up.
It is a good idea if other people on the thread, who haven't been trolled, tell the poster to put a sock in it, or get off the thread. Everyone has a right to be wrong headed, I am sure I am most of the time.
There was a great notice up in Richer Sounds, a budget UK electronics company, which said.
" The customer is always right, even when he is wrong, the customer is always right."
I agree with many things you said; many valid points! I agree that if you don’t like a post, don’t read it and move on. The problem is when the individual posts on your thread, insulting you and everyone else, and derailing a constructive thread.
If I don’t get banned from Audiogon (which I hope I don’t) I will move forward in a different way and do my best not to get wrapped up in all the negativity.
One thing for sure, words matter. I know where your coming from, 100% I've read some post that make me want to just, EXPLODE. Being polite and aware of others is an issue that just can't be understood by some. Some folks have no empathy for others. Sad but true.. They choose to be that way, whether, self induced, self imposed or just to Fuc%ing stupid to care. I've read many brash comments by different individuals. They just weren't taught or CHOOSE to be rude...
I'm an old mechanic, my job was to fix things...I would be cussed out for the machine being broke, and asked what took so long to get from CA to TX. I would walk up on a site and hear everything, but the truth as to what's wrong, how it happened, how to fix it, how long it should take, Why didn't you bring the part? Full of answers, but a few, just a few good questions, went a long way... to get some good "how to fix it" data.
Get my point, some folks know everything... Just have to weed through the BS, and tell them when their a broken record, LOL or at least a BIG scratch, so to speak...
"Banned" I don't think so...Agon is getting better. Best to hear it ALL and decide for yourself. Censorship and post deletion are never a good solution... EVER....
Thanks be it, your not that way....A better person for it too.. Ay..?
IME, this site seems refreshingly free of moderators and site owners who have an agenda. On another site, one that is frequented by a'philes, the owners and the mods have a favorite poster. This guy can throw any ad hominem at anybody with complete immunity. The same cannot be said for any other member. After awhile, I became aware that the site owners were receiving two things from this member..1) severely discounted prices on gear that they wanted and that he represented and 2) potentially more 'eye balls' on their site, as the 'ad hominem' attacks began to be noticed by others who posted in response to some of the rubbish that was allowed to escape moderation.... The site I am referring to has now sunk into a rather pathetic place, one that I have no further interest in contributing to.
Funny, but the person who I believe is the source of the OP's distaste seems to be oddly absent from this thread-considering he has chimed in on almost every new thread on Audiogon. Perhaps his ears are burning...😈 B
I haven't read all of the above posts but I hope everyone is familiar with the "Report this" button. It's located at the lower right of every posting. It only appears when you roll over it. I've used it several and the posts are usually removed. If a response attacks or offends you, you should use it.
I am not wise enough to judge where to the draw the line between allowing free speech and restraining internet bullying. I would not want to have the moderator's job.
That being said, on this forum I made the mistake of repeatedly engaging with someone who displayed what I now understand to be virtually textbook narcissistic behavior. I watched some YouTube videos on narcissists and it finally clicked.
Nnicola, welcome and thanks for sharing your perspective as a newcomer. You'll have to wade through unhelpful posts from time to time but imo it's worth it, and if something really seems out of line, use the report button.
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