@rvpiano -- good one! Although, I have met some pretty obsessive Deadheads who followed the band around, tried to acquire every live recording, set list, etc.
Why do some think "music" (not gear, trading, etc.) is the ultimate end?
A recent thread spurred a debate about the word "audiophile." Again. It went round and round in the usual ways.
What I don't understand is why so many take for granted that loving music is superior to loving gear. Or that gear is always -- and must be -- a mere *means* to music, which is the (supposedly) true end.
But if you stop and think about it, why do we love music? It gives us enjoyment.
Isn't that why people love gear? The enjoyment?
Or even, to push the question, buying, selling, changing gear? That's for enjoyment, no?
So, it raises the difficult question: Why do some think that "music" as an "enjoyment" is better than "gear" or "shopping, buying, selling, trading"?
Not everyone believes this, but it is the most prevalent assumption in these discussions -- that "love of music" is the end-which-cannot-be-questioned.
So, while music is the largest end I'm personally striving for, I do realize that it's because it brings me enjoyment. But the other facets of the hobby do, too. And I'm starting to realize that ranking them is an exercise but not a revelation of the "one" way everything should sort out. It's all pretty subjective and surely doesn't seem like a basis on which I could criticize someone else's enjoyment, right?
What do you think? On what grounds do you see it argued that "music" is a *superior* or *ultimate* end? Whether you agree or not, what reasons do you think support that conclusion?
What I don't understand is why so many take for granted that loving music is superior to loving gear. Or that gear is always -- and must be -- a mere *means* to music, which is the (supposedly) true end.
But if you stop and think about it, why do we love music? It gives us enjoyment.
Isn't that why people love gear? The enjoyment?
Or even, to push the question, buying, selling, changing gear? That's for enjoyment, no?
So, it raises the difficult question: Why do some think that "music" as an "enjoyment" is better than "gear" or "shopping, buying, selling, trading"?
Not everyone believes this, but it is the most prevalent assumption in these discussions -- that "love of music" is the end-which-cannot-be-questioned.
So, while music is the largest end I'm personally striving for, I do realize that it's because it brings me enjoyment. But the other facets of the hobby do, too. And I'm starting to realize that ranking them is an exercise but not a revelation of the "one" way everything should sort out. It's all pretty subjective and surely doesn't seem like a basis on which I could criticize someone else's enjoyment, right?
What do you think? On what grounds do you see it argued that "music" is a *superior* or *ultimate* end? Whether you agree or not, what reasons do you think support that conclusion?
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It would be interesting to contrast "active" vs. "passive" listening. Some listening -- like some viewing, e.g. of art works in a museum -- is quite an active thing to do. https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2007/07/music-moves-brain-to-pay-attention-stanford-study-fin... |
Jeeves- interesting viewpoint. Anything that involves "collecting" while an activity during the hunt, is ultimately passive, e.g. film collecting, record collecting, stamps, baseball cards. (though some of those "hobbies" are in reality, money making enterprises, or involve trading, but leave that aside). Is buying equipment a hobby--going to a store, or website, writing out the check or filling in the cc payment? Set up is an activity, but once that’s done, unless you are constantly tweaking, it’s passive. Not sure it really matters at the end of the day what you call this way of occupying time or interest (or spending money). I can tell you I exercised a lot of muscles the other day moving around quite a few stacks of records. :) PS: for me, a lot involves research and reading about the recordings, the performers, the sessions, etc. And some writing. All of that is an activity, though pretty sedentary. As to being "absorbed," I think that depends on the degree of involvement and time spent. Bill |
Hello, I am a gear and music audiophile. I would love to hear all of your systems. Just to experience the differences between the sounds. I have driven some nice cars. The experience was different in each. A Porsche does not drive like a Ferrari. A corvette does not drive like a Mustang. I’m still driving, but it’s a different experience. Tube or solid state? Vinyl, SACD, or stream it? They all sound different. As long as the recording was done well it’s all good. I have to say I love listening to music. Any time I can experience that music in a different way excites me because it is new. I have Pink Floyd’s, Dark Side of The Moon in UHCD, SACD, Vinyl 2018, Mofi Vinyl, and CD, they all sound different, not bad, just different. |
It's gotta be easier to have a couple walls packed with vinyl, a hard drive full of downloads and a subscription to Tidal or Qobuz than it might be to keep a closet (warehouse?) full of gear at the ready and suitably warmed up. Not to mention the sheer time it might take to install that particular cartridge you believe is the magical device that'll bring your Casino Royale soundtrack to bigger, better life. Then again, just last week I put the word to Jeeves. "Jeeves! I wish to hear Love over Gold! Order my golden-eared musclemen to hook up and position my Magicos!" |
I certainly enjoy the music, but I also enjoy dusting and polishing the my equipment, so I guess I can understand both. If I had technical knowledge, I would probably enjoy testing and replacing the electrolytics (I would jump on buying equipment if I knew how to test and service them). There must be something to the allure of those blue meters on the Macs, right? I enjoy watching the equipment review videos, and I also enjoy watching the stereo equipment repair videos, especially those by xraytonyb, even though there are a lot of technical things he talks about that are totally foreign to me (my ex-gf said I was “weird” to watch stuff like that, but I find it interesting). |
For me the audiophile journey has always been 50-50. I love my music and my gear. The goal has always been to get the best possible sound within a budget that didn’t require selling my soul to the devil, while getting damn close! But it can’t just sound good. I have to really enjoy looking at it even when I’m not listening to it. I love it when non-audiophiles walk in, see it and say "WOW". |
@hilde45-- You are asking a question that I’m not capable of answering-- it seems to deal with psychology to a large degree. Why are some people deeply engaged by a pursuit and others only have a passing interest? I’m excluding the "I’m not interested at all" but instead focusing on why one person may shop for a stereo, learn enough or rely on advice of friends or a salesperson and be done with the pursuit, happy to utilize the equipment ---as in your example of a toaster-- (I have yet to find a good one these days), where others get bitten by the bug and really do a deep dive into the particular field where it becomes a hobby or passion. I think in many past threads we’ve already excluded attention getting as a factor-- having a cool car as a poseur is certainly an easier way to attract attention than "wanna hear my stereo?" So, in some ways, the analogy to cars, and perhaps to other hobbyist pursuits fails. (Most car guys I knew were hardcore enthusiasts, not poseurs, and a lot were capable of turning a wrench). I suspect it has something to do with a passion that gets fulfilled. There was a guy who collected model trains- his entire basement in Pasadena was walls of enclosed glass shelves with various trains, along with a large model railroad set up. I doubt he did this to attract a mate, or draw attention to himself. There was some need that this fulfilled. Perhaps somebody qualified to speak to this aspect of the human experience can offer insight. I tend to go overboard on most things I do-- it’s sort of my nature if something draws my attention enough. Of course, there are many things about which I’m completely ignorant. I enjoyed watching Queen’s Gambit knowing I can’t remember even the basics of chess. My interest in music goes back to my earliest years. I can read, and play but these days rarely do so; I was involved in the industry but at a remove (as outside counsel) and do like gear. So, I can answer the question for myself. But, for others? I think we wind up back at the personal history/background/exposure thing-- and truth be told, both my profession and my interest in this hobby happened to coincide because of my fascination with music. I heard music in my head that I wanted to play but I never considered myself gifted in the way some musicians are--and if you asked them, I’m not sure they could give you a clear answer as to their prowess. Their ability to express themselves came through the music itself (though some are quite articulate). Not sure most of this is on point, but it’s kind of hard to sum up humanity, passion and creativity in an Internet post. It’s an elusive thing--and one that is endless in the sense that a creative person is always looking forward until they reach an age where they are unable to call upon their gifts anymore. (I had the pleasure of hearing Glenn Campbell on that Goodbye Tour or whatever it was called and it was apparent that he wasn’t all there mentally, but he still had the muscle memory-- his playing was inspired). Sorry to leave this on a bittersweet note- but we all only have so much time-- and that may be a driver of passion too-- the knowledge that all of us are mortal and can only have so much time and energy to pursue whatever it is that makes life worthwhile. |
@whart Thank you for your eloquent post, and the reference. I’m wanting to write about the experience of listening in an age of technological distraction from the point of view of philosophy, so this is an important thread on which I can pull. My question here is meant to elicit statements which may limn the different value systems people bring to the hobby. In part, it helps me reflect on the excitement and curiosity I still feel for the gear, even though my system is assembled. (E.g. "Why do I still care about the gear? I'm done!" That kind of question.) |
@hilde45- I think thread has transcended the usual banter here, and asked some hard questions about the "why" of it-- our universe, small as it may be within the world at large, offers a huge number of paths to pursue. To me, the issue is exposure. To music, to systems, and the process of learning. I was struck by a book I happened on while killing time in Boston one day, called "The Perfect Wrong Note." It’s really a meditation on why musicians are taught by rote and calls into question how music is learned by students, suggesting that a player who has a tendency to play a wrong note can learn from that experience. It’s a little "zen" but a worthwhile read. I started in this hobby’s first (or second, depending on how you count it) golden age- in the late ’60s when solid state was replacing tubes and records were still a mainstream medium. Even at that time, there was a tier of equipment that was priced beyond what most could afford, but promised a level of performance that was revelatory. Much was promoted in the U.S. by Harry Pearson of The Absolute Sound fame, and in a slightly more grounded way by J. Gordon Holt, of the original Stereophile. (There were many magazines available at the time, some quite good, that offered more technical articles as well as consumer fodder for the casual or aspirational reader). The goal, as it was stated at the time, was to assemble something that resembled real music and short of that, something that accurately reproduced the recording. The first goal is almost impossible in my experience. It works best with small scale stuff, not full orchestras and with fairly simple, uncluttered musical passages. In my experience, a lot of systems suffer some form of congestion when things get busy or complex and the illusion of "real" falls down. The alternative, being true to the recording, is equally elusive. Few of us have had the opportunity to sit in on an actual recording session and compare it to the resulting recording, particularly after it has been mixed down and made available as released product. (Listening to playback in the booth over studio monitors from the rolling tape-- and here I date myself-- isn’t the same as listening to the record). And a lot of records sound good not because they are made simply- to the contrary, there is a fair amount of studio gimmickry that goes into making something that sounds "natural." Jules Coleman, who was a professor of jurisprudence (the philosophy of the law) wrote some interesting things before he retired, one of which questioned the primacy of "accurate" reproduction as a false ideal. I refer to him here only because I think he tries to unravel an assumption most of us have about the role of accuracy in hi-fidelity reproduction: [url]https://thevinylpress.com/listening-to-recorded-music-a-rumination/[/url] Coming back to the choice of paths, there are many-- with the current plague, we aren’t free to visit showrooms, people’s homes or take in live shows, but that will pass. Listening to as many different systems as possible is not only revealing of strengths but of weaknesses of various systems and that’s instructive too. We used to have audio clubs, which do still exist in a few cities in the States and perhaps abroad, but much of the kibitzing is now done on chat boards like this, rather than in person. (We didn’t necessarily accomplish much at this meetings, apart from whatever the featured demonstration was-- it was largely a social thing, a chance to swap records, and casually chat and see folks that shared a common interest). The Internet has many advantages, one being worldwide reach and the ability to find things that are not readily within your immediate circle, geographically or socially, but it does have a certain flatness to it, compared to meeting in person. I know of no one who is expert in all the things associated with our hobby- there are so many niches just to Western music alone that one could devote one’s life just to the study of one performer or composer (not an entirely uncommon thing). I guess, at bottom, my point is that if you are just really starting out in this hobby, the best thing you can do for yourself once this Covid thing passes is to get out there and experience as much as you can-- by way of prerecorded music, live performances, attendance at seminars, trade shows (a good place for the audio minded to socialize and meet some of the manufacturers). I was never particularly skilled at mechanical and engineering things, so that’s another deep dive. I can read technical papers with some modest understanding and ask questions of people with more knowledge than I have. You could look at it as acquisitiveness, but the acquisition of knowledge, rather than "things." (Though I have lived life as an ardent materialist and still have a substantial record collection). Indeed, that takes us to yet another branch, the collection of recordings, which is yet another aspect of this hobby or overlaps with it. And is itself a vast subject, with many different niches of knowledge. I treat all of this as an adventure at this point, given my stage in life- I’m retired, my systems are relatively mature, and I have the time to explore and learn. It’s hugely rewarding and I wish the same for you. regards, Bill Hart |
I've always been pretty meticulous and particular when auditioning new equipment for purchase. I do so to avoid buyer's remorse about installing equipment into my system that doesn't provide the sonic benefits or improvements I was expecting. Though I can appreciate that some people love the thrill of trying out something new, auditioning equipment by doing A/B testing and having to switch equipment in and out of my system is frankly a pain in the butt for me. But, I continue to do it every so often when I make a change to my system. My philosophy on getting new equipment is do it once, get it right, and move on. With equipment in place that sounds good to me, hearing both music I know and new music provides me with both the enjoyment and novelty that I seek. As an example of my preferences and typical equipment purchase pattern, high quality music streaming has been a revelation for me and is motivating me to build a new digital front end to play streaming music at least decently well. I've never owned a great CD player, but the ability to listen to tens of thousands of new artists via Qobuz streaming is a radically different and valuable new experience for me. Some people may be most excited by getting and trying new equipment; I am motivated by listening to music reproduced more insightfully. I wouldn't claim that one is better than another...we are all wired differently. |
Musicfan-- Ha! I had a Ducati some 50 years ago, that took far more time to keep running than to actually ride. Learned a lot about mechanics, though, in the process. Same w/ my other bikes; that's the way things were before Japanese bikes took over the market. The main Life Lesson I learned, blessedly, was that I was not a good enough rider to do this sort of thing with anything resembling safety. |
rushfan71 , I can relate! I owned a Ducati for 22-23 years. When i wasn’t riding it or fettling with it, I would sit in the garage with a beverage and a calm mind and just marvel at the art that is an Italian motorcycle... Yes, I had other bikes, but THAT bike was an object d’art... As for music vs. gear, when I started in over 40 years ago it was a means to relate to my father. He was a classic "audiophile" with expensive equipment and a large record collection. When he wasn’t tinkering with his system he would spend hours listening to symphonies, Latin music and jazz. Occasionally he would let me play something of mine something on his system, which I’m sure sounded atrocious to him. (Rush2112 on Bozak Concert Grands? Wow! :) But we’d discuss different things and he’d teach me how and what to listen for. So when I started building systems I valued his opinions even if my meager efforts couldn’t hold a candle to his. He’s gone now, two decades, but I still rely on the techniques he taught me. A quiet home. A quiet soul. An observant mind. Right now I’m happy with my system so I can easily let the "acquisition wolf" rest as it’s been fed and I can feed the other "wolf" that lets me enjoy the music. Hmmm but maybe I should swap that Jolida tube DAC for a Chord first? Argh! Stop it and just play music for awhile! LOL Happy listening! |
No insult intended hilde45. I guess it came out that way. You did indeed provoke a discussion. I like the Zen... comment. I’m a big Lila fan too, sailing through life. I get more satisfaction getting audio hardware to work synergystcally than collecting the pieces alone. All in service of the enjoying music more. I get much more "buzz" from discovering music I like than looking at "kit." To answer the banner question, music is the "only" end. The pursuit of hifi gear is never ending. |
Many salient points already made in this discussion. I don't think its an either/or proposition. One feeds on the other. Personally I think its all about the music and I have literally more than 1000 pounds of gear. And still more stashed in closets. So the chase is over for me, I'm there...I have arrived at my happy place. That is not to say I haven't heard better rigs, I surely have many times. So what. But, I will continue to chase music and collect it. Music arrived on the scene long before any form of audio equipment. Regards, barts |
Loving material things without any consideration for their practical purposes can become a fetish. A fetish can become harmful when it distracts from other things that are important in life. But if you're going to have a passion, even to the neglect of friends/sleep/exercise, then you ought to pursue it meaningfully. If your passion is tennis for example, you aren't pursuing it very meaningfully if all you do is watch games and move your head right-left-left-right all day. You'd be an idiot. With HiFi, you won't be very good at trading and collecting gear if it's all just random stuff that doesn't produce good music. |
I appreciate the replies so far. I was hoping to understand why some feel justified in asserting the "the music" matters more than or to the exclusion of the gear or the process or putting a system together, improving it, etc. Many are pointing out there is a spectrum of related but quasi-independent values present in this hobby, and that many can be co-present. That sounds right to me. But again, I'm trying to learn what sounds right, and why, to others. @jdane raised an interesting question about whether any love to design/build/tinker with gear or loves to improve their system by buying/trading without having a stronger interest in music? That's a really interesting question because it asks whether someone might admit that the music is either a lesser or even negligible value. Sacrilege! Who will step forth and commit sacrilege? Good question! @denverfred makes the point that the way he listens is often assessing the quality of the sound (recording session, playback, and all that contributes). He listens "critically" to the "sound" as well as the musical meanings being conveyed. This reminds me of a story Steve Guttenberg says; growing up, he was fascinated by the sound of static on the radio, its modulations and movements. He often talks about the impact that music has on him, too, but his origin story as an audiophile is about his fascination with different sounds. To this day, he's interesting as a reviewer because he always approaches his reviews with both sound and music and gear in mind. He rarely tilts so hard toward one of those that the others are left out. He's open to each element being the "ultimate value" but he never insists which one is the final, ultimate value. @yyzsantabarbara said something really intriguing, "Listening to music is easy and fun. Only problem is I spend too much time posting like this while I listen to music instead of doing my actual work." My question here would be -- Why is that a problem? Is it better to listen to music without doing something else at the same time? Why? @whart I didn't mean to make a rejoinder to the other post (which had a wide range of opinions within it), but there were comments there (and in other places) that seem to feel a strong need to reemphasize the message that "the music is *the* point" of this hobby. I'm interested in where that urge (to make music ‘ultimate’) comes from and it's the objective (I think) of @jdane's "test question" above to see who's willing to say that "the gear not the music is the main point." @skyscraper is willing to step up on this one, though! There are "equal parts" in the equation for him/her. @mhe asserts that we enjoy music because it is valuable, not the other way around. We can swap the equation that way if desired. Music is valuable first, then people are moved by it and notice that they enjoy that. Still, some who love gear or the process of building a system may want to swap things around this way, too. They like to be active rather than just sit in the sweet spot and listen. Building, tweaking, improving or changing the character of their system turns out to be a pretty powerful value-in-itself. If music was the only end, once the system was good enough to deliver music, they'd stop futzing. But the activity of making/remaking things is their true love, and music is the vehicle to that end. The journey is the destination. Plausible. @hickamore points out the the two elements, music and gear are both necessary, yin/yang. Agreed. Imagine a system which can just "beam" music at a person and they hear it. No intervening amps, players, cables, etc. Just say, "Alexa, play 'Misty' for me" and the music is all around you. Would it be better to have that and eliminate all these discussions? @nd1der Yes, this is what makes this hobby a spiral and not a circle. Now that I have better gear, I not only hear more, I want to hear more better quality music. And sometimes that is for "critical" listening (as Denverfred pointed out) and sometimes it's to push myself to hear more difficult meaningful music (as mhe pointed to in the "Love Supreme" example). Somehow, the topic of "which cable" or "which amp" leads to new music. That's pretty cool. @redwoodaudio Makes a great point about "personalizing your system to your own taste and style." That's the interactive part of the hobby which I enjoy. Changes in gear can lead to new sensations and even new emotions provoked by those sensations. The gear becomes a way to investigate what I can potentially hear and experience. And of course music helps that along. ;-) @whart -- exactly right, it does become very personal for the reasons you cite. I am trying to understand the urge some (not all!) feel to try to re-assert that "THE music is THE point." And by asking this question, it does put me outside my comfort zone (as you call it) because I'm relatively new to the hobby and it is full of people with a lot more knowledge and experience than I have. And I share your quest -- to better understand the musical experience. In part, this question is getting at that because I am finding that even though I've just put a system together, I'm still interested in discussing audio. When I buy a toaster, I'm just done with that part of it; bread goes in, toast comes out. Yet here I am, talking about audio equipment with others even though my system is now good enough to just be my music-toaster. What is it about the musical experience that keeps the gear/system involved? For some reason, those things cannot be disentangled as easily. @kingr Makes perhaps the best case I've heard for equipment -- it launched him/her into new music (and new meanings, values). I've heard people say that about the first time they ate really good food, with really good ingredients. |
Here is my take on this issue. Ofcourse it's about the music. However, the gear that I buy is just a vessel to deliver that music in a way that elicits an emotional response. As a Harley Davidson Technician of 27 years I can draw some parellels between the bike and the ride. Ultimately it's about the ride. My job is to make sure that it is a fulfilling experience. One of exhilaration and acceleration. I upgrade suspensions for a smoother ride. I do engine performance upgrades for more power. But then there are people that spend alot of money on the bikes appearance. It technically has no effect on the ride, but man does it feel good to sit back in the garage with a beer and jibber and take in the beauty of that iron horse. Almost as good as ride itself. |
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Years ago I noticed a woman. She was wearing a t-shirt. It had a Buddha like image and said ‘I’ll have a hot dog with everything’ What brings someone joy os generally good and my goal is to be constructive. I can see folks collecting albums or 78s, enjoying the process of pursuing their perfect system or someone that owns an iPod and goes to listens music 4-5 times a week all being considered audiophiles. You don’t have to love everything about something to still love it, do you? |
I like the books and cars analogies too. I don't feel the music is the end. Like you hilde45, I feel it's an equal part of an equation with each part as valuable as the other in providing pleasure. Like with acquiring records and CD's, it's as much fun for me to collect the CD's as to listen to them. Same as with books. Don't know if I'll ever read all the ones on the shelves, but the collecting of ones I'd like to have and read is so much fun, it really doesn't matter if I ever read them all. Mike |
Great thread...I look at it this way (and for me it WAS always music first), however once I got into and discovered the "higher end" beyond mass market is when I started listening to jazz. Before my first "real" system I would have never ever even considered listening to jazz. I'd have to say it is now my favorite genre. BUT if I had typical mass market (read Bose speakers, all in one receiver), I can honestly say I wouldn't enjoy it as much. I now listen to music I would have never even considered before in some cases simply because the sound quality is so amazing through better quality components...So I think a case could be made this one could go both ways...And in some cases for me it does.. |
@hilde45- I'm not taking you to task. In fact, maybe you started this thread in response to one I missed-- I was thinking of the thread that said you aren't really an audiophile unless you are churning through equipment somewhat frequently. I don't care about being called an audiophile (in fact, it has a negative connotation to me), but I think there are a lot of different types of people drawn to this hobby, from engineering types to let's get a buzz on and listen to some tunes. I've enjoyed the equipment I've owned over the years, but my personal priority at this stage of my life is discovering new to me music. I do take pride in the systems I've put together and enjoy the gear head aspect, but I'm not driven to acquire better and better gear at this point in my life. But, that's what makes all of this so interesting, no? Each of us is different, with different priorities. You raised the rhetorical question in this thread why the enjoyment of music is elevated over buying/swapping out gear? You then suggested that the usual answer-- that the equipment is simply a vehicle to access and enjoy the music was, if not a token response, one that didn't fully reflect all the reasons people engage in this hobby. I agree with that, but I also think it becomes very personal-- starting with what you were exposed to musically (and gear wise) at what point in time, to whether you can play an instrument to whether you can solder or build equipment. All of those are factors and each of us differ in our backgrounds, knowledge and understanding as much as we do our musical taste or preference. My "quest" has been to get outside of my comfort zone, musically, to avoid the audiophile traps and to better understand the musical experience. Many people of that ilk spend a fair amount of time listening to live music. Or get into the mystical aspects, which starts to make my brain overheat. There's been a lot written about music and the brain, emotional responses and the science of music. All of it is fascinating to me, as are archival recordings, and the techniques used to retrieve and preserve those. I guess the most we can expect from each other is to learn something, no? And perhaps to have a good laugh, a glass of wine (or whatever) and enjoy it while we can. I also think it is good to question one's own assumptions occasionally. I go through mid-life crises every 5 years or so and wind up reassessing things. Perhaps I'm just in a mood. Sorry for the lengthy response. Bill hart |
12-10-2020 5:01am I think we can all agree that it starts with the music. We love music so we chase gear that makes the music sound better. Then, once we have what we think is our ultimate gear, we chase music that makes the gear sound better. Then repeat. It becomes like a dog chasing it’s tail. Said dog is usually happy but sometimes frustrated. That’s it, in a nutshell 🙂 |
Well, you can personalize your system to your own taste and style, but you can’t personalize the music. Something to be said for creating a personal system being a most fun and rewarding pursuit. Enjoyment from the gear is different than from the music, for me. Glad I enjoy both, separately and together. |
Maybe I missed the point of your post as a rejoinder to the other thread, @hilde45, but who said you can’t love gear for its own sake? Many do, and I can’t improve on the way I asked the question in the OP or the rejoinders. @rocknss made a comment which captured how music can be a value without necessarily dismissing the value of the equipment. |
I think we can all agree that it starts with the music. We love music so we chase gear that makes the music sound better. Then, once we have what we think is our ultimate gear, we chase music that makes the gear sound better. Then repeat. It becomes like a dog chasing it’s tail. Said dog is usually happy but sometimes frustrated. |
The experience of great music can be divorced from pleasure. Bono (of U2) fame, tells a story of listening to "A Love Supreme" over and over, trying to work his way into the music. He sensed something good was there, but it took him time to access it. I think this can be a common experience. We hear something but don't really enjoy it, but get an odd feeling that something of importance was there, and we go back to the piece until we can grasp it. I myself would never want to listen to "A Love Supreme" if I wasn't up to the experience. To know the greatness was there but being too tired or stressed to experience it--that's something I avoid. |
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It's backwards to say we value music because we enjoy it. Rather, we enjoy music because it's valuable. The pleasure or enjoyment is a result of being in the presence of something beautiful or meaningful or important. Think about how music affects people, how they experience it. They don't say, "Oh, that Coltrane solo wasn't much good, but wow, it gave me a lot of pleasure." Instead the music is so powerful, so brilliant, transcendent even, that pleasure can't help but attend it; pleasure becomes a sign of value, not the source of the value itself. In fact "pleasure" and "enjoyment" are not strong enough terms for "music heard so deeply that it is not heard at all, but you are the music, while the music lasts." I can't quite see an experience of the sublime arising from stereo equipment, but I'm open to differing opinions. |
@emrofsemanoAlan Parsons is onto something. I catalog all my vinyl and mark down their sound quality among other things. My highest rating is EQR (Exceptional quality recording). Obviously a small minority of my 2,000 albums. But point is, if I truly want to hear my system, I will put one of those on. Otherwise I play most others simply for the music. Their sound won't blow my mind but the music will. Of course the ultimate is to have an EQR album with music that's to die for (to my taste), but that's pretty rarified air and Alan Parsons is not one of those :) |
The hunt for new gear, cars, watches and, you name it, is a powerful force too. That force is more powerful than the acquisition of same. Once you get the new amp or car the pull forces towards it diminish I think. There is no end in trading and wanting something else. With music, it think that formulation does not really apply so, in a sense, music is an end game. I love music and I love gear. Happy listening folks. Enjoy your tunes and enjoy your gear. |
Oddly, I find the same thing true of cars- I drove them. Yes, I understand the Pebble Beach mentality, but to me it’s sad to see a piece of machinery meant for the joy of driving sitting idle, perhaps rolled off a transport to be set up at a show or museum, and then returned to it’s garage slot once its appearance at a show is over. (There was a guy in Jersey with an F-40 in a room purpose built for viewing the car-- when he went bankrupt, a wall had to be removed to get access to the car). A friend I had on the East Coast when I lived in NY visited me the first time by driving his GT 40 over to my place. Not the Ford re-boot from the early 2000’s but a real GT 40 that ran at LeMans back in the day. The type of car that most would put in museum. Not that guy- he drove it. Sure, you can collect audio gear. I’ve known several people who do-- I have gear I don’t use that sits around in a few rooms, but I hardly consider myself a collector of vintage gear. I try and use the equipment for its intended purpose. My Quad ESLs, which I bought in 1973-4 (sorry, I’m a little imprecise about the year) were restored a few years ago and are now running in a vintage system I set up. It’s a great little system and I enjoy having and listening to that speaker. As a piece of industrial art, it’s a bit odd, but I will have owned this pair for almost 50 years. Admittedly, they sat dormant for many years when I used other speakers, awaiting refurbishment. Do what you like. I think the thread that the OP was referring to didn’t say gear collecting was a bad thing, or that enjoying music was "superior" to gear collecting, though it is really the ultimate purpose for which this stuff was designed. I can appreciate good electro/mechanical design for its own sake. I just happen to use my hi-fi as a means to an end. The fact that there is some intrinsic beauty to the design, manufacturing quality or other aspects of the equipment is simply a nice by-product. Some of the gear I prize would not win any awards for aesthetics. But does that make it inferior? I don’t think so. Maybe I missed the point of your post as a rejoinder to the other thread, @hilde45, but who said you can’t love gear for its own sake? |
For me, buying gear is a difficult task, not really fun I also am not too keen on following the advice of an expert on what to get so I do the DD myself. Though I want to hear their opinion. The internet is a great equalizer for me on this regard. Listening to music is easy and fun. Only problem is I spend too much time posting like this while I listen to music instead of doing my actual work. I recently made some audio buys (after all the DD I did) and audio tweaks that make me extremely satisfied with the sound I am now getting. I feel like the hard part is now done and the easy road lies ahead. |
A relative who recently auditioned my system (a Maggie owner!) decided, after some discussion that I was "merely" listening to equipment and not to music. I was dumbfounded and could only reply: "Something wrong with that?" Crickets! Back in the day, I bought a new, special order, Mustang Mach I in a Thunderbird color. Gorgeous. No relative accused me of "merely" wanting to go fast. They knew that this guy is more complicated than that. I might as well go ahead and whine a bit that a family member might actually think I could sit for hours and listen to equipment! Hello! The true objection probably has to do with the amount of money we spend on what is primarily a solitary, obviously pleasurable and often intrusive hobby that many see as spoiling their own conception of music as a background for Whatever. I just bought an expensive recorder. The flute thing. Relative asks, "Is it a real recorder?" Honestly, would any audiophile settle for a plastic instrument? But no accusations of "You just want it for the cool wood!" Need I go on? Maybe if I leave my expensive recorder out on the table during listening sessions others will understand that I have reason to listen intently to everything involving music--not just the mood of the orchestrations. I listen critically to: my gear, the gear at (usually Qobuz), the gear at the recording session, the musicians’ gear, and finally the mics and then the actual sound I want to catch in mid-air. With new technology, I’m usually evaluating recording quality and performance quality. Sometimes the sound quality of a specific instrument. Is that the same as "music?" |
