May not be for audiophiles but there are shielded speaker cables in the market.
Seems to be a lot of bot/AI paranoia if a person, new person posts something that goes against the consensus around here. Very amusing.
Why Do Cables Matter?
To me, all you need is low L, C, and R. I run Mogami W3104 bi-wire from my McIntosh MAC7200 to my Martin Logan Theos. We all know that a chain is only as strong as its' weakest link - so I am honestly confused by all this cable discussion.
What kind of wiring goes from the transistor or tube to the amplifier speaker binding post inside the amplifier? It is usually plain old 16 ga or 14 ga copper. Then we are supposed to install 5 - 10' or so of wallet-emptying, pipe-sized pure CU or AG with "special configurations" to the speaker terminals?
What kind of wiring is inside the speaker from the terminals to the crossover, and from the crossover to the drivers? Usually plain old 16 ga or 14 ga copper.
So you have "weak links" inside the amplifier, and inside the speaker, so why bother with mega expensive cabling between the two? It doesn't make logical sense to me. It makes more sense to match the quality of your speaker wires with the existing wires in the signal path [inside the amplifier and inside the speaker].
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because in my experience over many years, i have found that very expensive cables don’t out-perform well chosen, reasonably priced ones That is true for any component of an audio system. Why make it sound like it is the case only for cables? You have some really nice gear so I believe you. On the other hand, there are many paths to stereo fulfillment.
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@tonywinga you have a very nice system also. |
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I'll tell you guys a story. This isn't easy for me to talk about. So I have wanted some Wilson Audio speakers for a long time. I loved my Thiel CS6 speakers but I had to get me a pair of Wilsons. I revamped my system from the ground up and made my dedicated listening room acoustically friendly. I thought I was ready for the Wilsons. I was sure that I would be able to insert them into my system- plug n play. Ha!. I got my Wilsons and ended up replacing every single cable and power cord. Lucky for me I was able to do that or I wouldn't have kept the speakers. I should have known better because I went through the exact same thing when I got the Thiel speakers years ago. Meanwhile, I finally found a buyer for my Thiels. I set them up in my shop with a bluetooth SMSL amp that I use on the back porch and with some old, old Monster Cable speaker wire. Now, my shop is insulated and the walls are covered with perforated masonite. So it is just about hemianechoic. I had the speakers just sitting on a blanket on the concrete floor and about 6 feet apart and 15 feet from the back wall. My shop is 30x30. I sat down to take a listen before the buyer arrived and I was blown away. The Thiels sounded so good I got sick to my stomach. The bass was as good I had ever heard from them. The imaging was crisp like a pair of Maggies. After listening to a few songs I could hear differences compared to the Wilsons, but this still was a set up that I could have just about lived with. I spent a lot of money to get that last 20% out of my system. At that point the buyer was almost there and I really don't need multiple systems so I let them go. The bass, the soundstage, the detail and clarity are all clearly better with the Wilsons but I'm saying that Theil speakers have got to be the best bargain in hifi these days. They just need plenty of room around them to perform their best. |
@tonywinga I'm going through the same process now with my ZUs. I really really didn't want to audition cables again and believed I was set in that area forever. Nope. |
When putting together my first audio chain, my target was linear neutral so that I can better evaluate component upgrades Years of research for cables using reviews to create a hierarchy of price/performance got thrown out the window after this review for the newer model Siltech Classic cables: Prior I was targeting the MIT cables at Equis Audio because they seemed like a bargain as their features competed with their more expensive cables. ”Classic Legend is an extremely neutral conductor, adding or subtracting next to nothing to the sound of the equipment. It’s also extremely consistent:…” is exactly what I was looking for. So coupled with this great review, Siltech’s reputation for sonic excellence, Siltech’s seemingly extensive experience with silver purification for audio I purchased my interconnects. At least with this cable I can understand refined Silver, and I’ll buy gold filling in gaps is sonically positive, and the price was a reasonable step up from other silver cables. Tip- at THE Show, I discovered that monocrystal silver is soft and hard to use and make into cable, and that Albedo cables are made with monocrystal silver as Albedo are “jewelers by trade”. If I want to try out other silver cables like for speakers, I may give them a try.
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I hate the process of buying cables and I managed to find cables from a company that does it well. So I spent a lot buying speaker cables interconnects and power cords. I bought the mid upper tier Products they offered. Extreme stuff is ridiculo… I'm very content with the purchases and very happy I don't have to revisit the process of choosing cables. The name of the company is transparent I did buy some quality ethernet cable's and HDMI cable's from audio quest which I think do these areas very well. |
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I find I can agree only with your last paragraph. You make inferences that cables are simple and easy to make but I haven’t seen much from you to substantiate that. What then is the proper pricing structure for cables be it Cu, Ag, or Au alloys? What about the structure and weave of the cable and the insulators used? Or should not pricing be based on performance? What is Uber expensive in your mind? Is an amp, speaker or turntable that costs as much as a 550 HP luxury car overpriced in your mind then? I will tell you that I know very little about the engineering and design of audio cables but I do know something about wire. I worked with wire in Aerospace and Automotive. There the primary goals were fatigue resistance and joint integrity. Other requirements included noise rejection and EMI emissions. Wire harnesses can get complicated very quickly and especially when working with high frequencies- ie. 5 kHz and above. I also know the economics of production. Low volume, handmade boutique level gear, be it cables, amps or turntables will be costly. No avoiding that. A handmade watch that costs $100k cannot keep time as well as a $100 quartz watch but which one looks and feels good on the arm? No, I myself would never spend that on a watch but I’d love to buy a pair of speakers… |
To explain where I am coming from, I got me a pair of liquid filled interconnects that cost nearly as much as my preamp. Fortunately, I got them used for much less. The change these cables made to my audio system is astounding. Would that I could upgrade all of my cables to that level. Only it would cost me more than what I paid for my first house and I can’t bring myself to do that. It always comes down to, “how far are you willing to take it?” btw- tweaks are fun and they do not have to be expensive. |
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This has been my experience. It is very possible that an extremely excellent speaker and amp combination will be best served by plain zip wire of adequate gage for the cable length. If a special cable is needed, it suggests that something unusual in terms of standard engineering practices is happening between the amp and the speaker. I talked to a guy who hooked some Wilson speakers up to a high end amp he had (can’t remember which) with some fairly expensive cables and the combination made a lot of noisy distortion - like really obvious noises coming from the speakers. He got a pair of very expensive cables that had a box with some secret circuit in the middle and it stopped the problem. Most consumer grade speaker / amp combinations would not have that kind of thing going on. A lot of my experience with high-end audio gear has been that it is fussy stuff with unusual issues. |
@knownothing great observations on the selected posts. |
At least some designers of high end cables have obtained patents for their products and designs. https://patents.justia.com/inventor/caelin-gabriel And these patent applications have received some review by qualified engineers to determine if there are any technical grounds justifying award. “Patent examiners review patent applications to determine whether the invention(s) claimed in each of them should be granted a patent or whether the application should instead be refused. One of the most important tasks of a patent examiner is to review the disclosure in the application and to compare it to the prior art. This involves reading and understanding a patent application, searching the prior art (including prior patent applications and patents, scientific literature databases, etc.) to determine what contribution the invention makes over the prior art, and issuing office actions to explain to the applicants and their representatives (i.e., patent attorneys or agents) any objections that may exist against the grant of a patent. In other words, an examiner reviews a patent application substantively to determine whether it complies with the legal requirements for granting of a patent. A claimed invention must meet patentability requirements of novelty, inventive step or non-obviousness, industrial application(or utility) and sufficiency of disclosure.” From Wikipedia article titled “Patent Examiner” |
If people think they matter then they matter. My personal view is on the grand scale of things, practically, wires are not a big deal. Get some good quality ones if needed, get all the rest right and you are in good shape. If it still matters to you then try something different and see. Expensive wires are very practical to buy used. Not too much that can go wrong with them over time compared to the more complex devices. Let other people pay top dollar if they must. |
Patent examiners by and large are overworked, underpaid and not expert. Michael Jackson was able to patent his ’moonwalk’ shoes ... something used since the 1880’s music halls. Just for laughs, when I see a patent on HiFi gear these days, I read it... ... if I can while ROTFLMFAO 🤣 |
@asctim says: ”If someone was curious to hear more clearly what various cables do to the sound, it seems they could be tried with long cable runs, like maybe 100 feet. Surely that would exaggerate whatever change the cable is making compared to another cable of the same length. They might both sound bad at that length, but in different ways.” Cable length seems to be discussed most often in terms of speaker cables (keep them short to reduce signal loss, or keep them above a minimum length to match amplifier properties (Naim), and digital cables (1.5ft or greater to reduce reflections in the cable). Balanced cables are preferred in pro audio for low level signals to reduce signal loss on long runs. Lot’s of discussion of this topic on this and other forums, check it out. But length is only one parameter in cable performance, and the one that the end user has universal control over in the selection process, whether buying lamp cord or exotic six figure wires. One could argue long runs could require more care in cable selection and matching cables to your particular gear than shorter runs because of greater chances for selective loss of certain signal frequencies, smear in time domains, interference in electrically noisy environments, or compounding or decreasing negative gear/cable interactions unique to your system. Speaking of electrically noisy environments, how about the environment right behind your integrated amp or preamp, where high and low level analog signals cross paths with high level power supply cables and various ethernet, USB and coax digital cables? This is where cable technologies that tame interference and keep various signal forms in their respective lanes really pays off. The performance benefits of good design here are generally independent of cable length (unless various cables are coiling on top of each other in a pile behind your gear) and, I think, one element in answering the original question “why do cables matter”. YMMV kn |
What do you want your cables to do? Magically and dramatically change the sound of your system? That’s unlikely, unless they are junk and don’t perform the basic function of getting a signal from one place to another. They can and do sometimes improve sound quality, but usually incrementally. If your ears amid the rest of the system can’t detect/convey the difference, don’t waste your money on cables. If you're looking for that last bit of performance, then yes, everything matters. Don't denigrate others simply because they're willing to take things to another level than you can/will. Personally, I buy cables primarily on need. For example, if my turntable has a hum, it may be grounding or I may need a cable with insulation that will shield the signal. Besides shielding, other considerations include connectors, length, flexibility, and yes, looks. Turntable cables probably matter most, others typically have less impact. |
”Just for laughs, when I see a patent on HiFi gear these days, I read it... ... if I can while ROTFLMFAO 🤣” Applying for and receiving a US patent requires that the product designer provide some plausible engineering principles to support the patent application, and an attempt to explain how it works and how it provides a unique design solution for a particular problem of set of problems. While patent applications are also a form of “sales”, one hopes that the engineers approving patent applications have greater experience and expertise than the average consumer, in this case consumers of hifi cables. My assumption here is that there is a higher standard of “proof” required for the presentation of the idea to the patent office than, say to consumers at audio shows, showrooms, or viewing online videos. If this assumption is not true in general for patent approvals, then heaven help us all. kn |
I know... I gots one and was involved in others. As Reagan opined, "The best minds are not in government. If any were, business would hire them away." Last time I checked, which was a long time back, US examiners started @ $35k and I was paying $125k for engineers. “If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.” |
Why do you have to lift speaker cables off the floor?
I tested in my system by lifting the speaker cables, and the bass generally got a lot weaker. Put the cables back on the wooden floor and the bass is back now. Took some towels and threw them on the cables now the bass is fuller with beautiful extension. Keep he towels where they are :)
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I have tried, but cables seem to be the least easily discernible items to listen for in an audio system. Speakers are easy, but if you want to truly hear cables (any chance in hell of hearing differences without knowing exactly which cable you you changed to?) then you'd better have absolute superb speakers and amplification, IMHO. Amplification changes, if done correctly, can be heard over time, or if you are lucky, almost immediately. Digital stuff gets tougher for me but can be heard. I guess I've not gotten into a huge enough upgrades to feel expensive wire is truly necessary beyond buying quality cabling, but not into the thousands of dollars and more. I do hear folks point to wiring inside an electronic device in the audio chain and feel like nothing beyond that is necessary. That is more than laughable (at least to me). Do they want a tiny board trace wire/connection al the way to the loudspeaker. I submit large better wires count for the current/voltage put out by a power amp to the speakers. I could be wrong but I'm into decent cabling, even if not tossing tons of money into wire I can't hear compare to some acoustic room treatment. :-)
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@yoyoyaya says in response to @donavabdear : “Your argument implies that because recordings are made with components of a particular level of quality, then using better quality components to reproduce them is pointless. That argument is specious for the reasons set out above.” 100%. But as our systems become more resolving (and the quality of the wires both inside and outside of our boxes contribute significantly to that resolving ability), relative strengths and weaknesses in recording quality and craftsmanship become more and more apparent. One of the acquired skills of audiophiles is to learn to listen past the warts on some of our previously favorite recordings to still hear and appreciate the musical event captured in time. |
Alhemist never suceeded to turn lead into gold as ordered by German ''Keizer'' which ''tresure'' was empty. They all were dissmised and changed their name into ''metalurgist''. As such they were more succesful. Some of them deed suceed but not with lead but wiith copper. Some from the Nord and East. They sell copper cables for more money than gold. |
I was awarded 10 US Patents over my engineering career and several EU Patents. (Before I went into management). Some, but not all of the EU Patents overlap the US ones. Most but not all of my inventions made it into production. My little brother has 9-10 US Patents too and he is a Purdue grad. Go figure. It is expensive to apply for a patent and time consuming. I had to work with the legal team to develop the art and the claims as well as research of all patent databases to verify no prior claims. Unless someone has a lot of time and money on their hands to write up some fantastical inventions and pay a legal team to submit it for a patent, well it wouldn’t make sense to me. The sole purpose of the patent is to protect the invention for a time allowing the inventors to profit from their ideas. Even holding a patent is not a guarantee someone will not copy it. Lot’s of time and legal fees involved in defending patent rights. So I don’t understand how someone would be rolling on the floor with laughter reading patent claims. I’d rather watch Gillian’s Island reruns. |
A few observations on intellectual property. 1. Having protectable IP is important to inventors who may wish to licence their IP and not use it themselves. 2. It can be vital when looking to raise external capital. 3. Just because something is patented doesn't necessarily mean it is has utility - or at least not commercial utility. 4. People who work in public service don't do it to maximise their earnings. It doesn't necessarily imply that their abilities or work is of lesser quality. 5. Natually, patent examiners are not infallible - that's why people end up in litigation. That said, patent examinership looks like an area that's ripe for the application of AI. |
I trained as a biological oceanographer, and my experience with electronics beyond plugging them in and turning them on is taking delicate research instruments out of the ocean where a seal leaked and trying to resuscitate them 1,000 away from the nearest electronics shop, wiring my house and building custom power cables for audio equipment that I hope will not destroy audio gear or cause a fire. I have a rudimentary understanding of resistance, capacitance and continuity, and beyond that, it’s pretty much try something in my current system and see how it sounds. Scientists are professional skeptics, and are paid to knock the crap out of ideas until they either wither or hold up under scrutiny. I have had plenty of my ideas beaten down and a few hold up. With any audio gear, I am always a skeptic until I hear the results for myself. If I am making a large audio investment ( for me), I will seek second opinions and have arranged blind tests with people whose ears I trust. Through my audio journey, I have determined that cables matter a lot, but results don’t always match linearly with investment. All that said, I am perfectly comfortable having my ideas and comments challenged here by people who have a lot more formal training and experience in this field than I do. I brought up the patent process as a possible place where different concepts and claims for exotic or new audio cable designs get vetted by a neutral third party out of the glare of advertising and competing claims of glory in the marketplace. Based on y’all’s comments, this suggestion was misguided. Both my brother and his son are electrical engineers who have patents for things I completely don’t understand, and they are not at liberty to divulge the intended use. Perhaps I should have asked them first about the patent process before bringing it up here. LOL BTW, I referenced Caelin Gabriel’s patents in this thread because I am aware that he has an engineering background and I know (from effective marketing on his part) that he has patented a number of his product ideas. I own some of his gear and it works well enough, but I would not call myself a fan boy. |
Because the claims defy physics, particularly in HiFi. I read plenty of claims for products on which something we made could possibly infringe - at least in a lawyer's mind - and had to write arguments invalidating the claims from prior art. United States Issues Patent Number 10,000,000 in 2018. The twenty-five years from 1993 to 2018 double the number of patents of the previous TWO HUNDRED years. Many, many times I dissuaded our teams from applying because although the product might be clever and unique, it was based on fundamentals that would not survive a knowledgeable examiner. Perhaps I should have relented and 'collected' some more... 😏 |
@knownothing My argument was just called a name it wasn't dealt with as you say. My argument is that you can't get more information out of the recording than the original. I recorded original recording for 35 years I've been to the Oscars and Emmys and technical Emmys all more than once. The principle is easy if you put a Ferrari body around a Volkswagen it doesn't make it go faster or turn better. If you original recording has an information value of 7 you can't change any component and get 7.5 out of the recording this is a physics idea not an audiophile idea no matter how resolving your system is. Bottlenecks are parts of the recording that limit the amount of information you can put in the recording, you can have a movie with 192hz sample rate music and then mix the movie in 48k sample rate ant the 192hz music will not stick out as higher quality in the mix, the signal is limited to 48k. Audiophiles use examples explaining how cables tune their system, it is only possible to tune their system down not up because you can't create more information via the cable no matter how expensive it is. When AI is incorporated into audio that's another story but for now just understand it is a law called entropy not an idea that is limiting as well as audiophiles not understanding simple physics. |
@donavabdear : and you have been repeatedly told from multiple people in various of your “audiophiles don’t understand “ threads that it’s not about adding “more information “ to the original recordings. It’s about removing as little as possible from it. But it does not appear you WANT to listen. And being so smart (Oscars and Emmys and all those distinguished accomplishments), it sounds to me you don’t want to listen (or read) on purpose. No idea why. Maybe because (going back to your multiple “audiophiles are basically stupid “ threads)? |
Is Paul deluded or is he a charlatan? Why would an owner of a HIFI firm recommend someone else gear? Come on people. You really want to know if cables matter, go to a HIFI store and ask for a demo on a system that they chose. It is as easy as that. But you wont.
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