Just a general response to those who think there is a “Free Lunch” when it comes to cables. I have owned a lot of various cable designs (brands) and have found the “Box” cables to offer a vastly superior result!
Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?
I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
1,019 responses Add your response
...There are differences in the human condition over the time of an observation (amount of sleep, nutrition, caffeine, alertness, time of day, etc) that may be more impactful in how or what we are hearing, than the perceived small changes in cables. We don't remain steady state and we are the listener! |
There are indeed tiny differences and they can be measured. But they are differences, not necessarily improvements. Good speakers are designed to be neutral with just ordinary cable. That is what Peter Walker of Quad and Alan Shaw (Harbeth) have always argued. If you want to tinker with frequency response (because that is what these tiny differences involve), all you need to do is use a tone control/equalizer. |
as @chayro points out on another thread: For the millionth time, why does everybody ignore the fact that the Aczel crowd never maintained that all cables sound the same. Their theory was that all differences between cables are due solely to inductance, resistance and capacitance values, which are easily measured and can drastically change the frequency response of a speaker. So, yes - cables with the same LCR values will sound the same. So they maintain. Whether it’s true or not is another story. In other words, all cables sound different unless they measure exactly the same. For those who are strictly in the measurement camp, have you measured the LCR of the various cables that you say can't sound different? And for the latest posters on this already, beaten to death meme, double blind listening tests are nothing more than a cheap parlor trick. One has to listen over a period of time in order to ascertain anything. Listening is an emotional event. You can do the same thing with two different TV sets with one being measurably and visually better but by swapping them out over and over you can arrive at a 50/50 chance of picking the worse over the best and it wouldn't prove a thing. All it would prove is that you could trick someone under the right conditions. All the best, Nonoise |
In my opinion, the differences in cables (if any - for comparable resistance and length) are very subtle. So subtle that by the time you swap our to a different set your audio memory (the accuracy of which is extremely perishable) will not be able to recall the previous audio parameters sufficiently to note a difference. The common response to this (from exotic cable makers, retailers and lovers) is that you need to spend more money on better equipment so that you CAN "resolve" the differences. Hogwash!! |
All cables sound different. You have to do a lot of listening to different systems and cables to develop the ability to hear the differences. More expensive cables generally sound better and are made better. If you don't hear a difference than better cables aren't necessary for you. Do a lot of reading and listening and whatever you decide, enjoy it. |
bdfar 5K cables, heck $500 cables are for people who just think they need to spend more and more and then some more on their audio system. It's almost sinful, but then again to each his own. To people who don't believe me I always have 2 words that shut them up. Blind. Test.Okay, please tell us about the blind tests you conducted. Who designed the test, who proctored the test, where was the test conducted and who participated in the test? If you're going to propose scientific testing, then it's only proper that you submit your test and its results for review by others. That's how science works. |
How convenient, and original, claim an aberration and "safely" throw out the offending fact. Did you learn that in your
Multivariate Analytical Statistics and Data Visualization class where higher level students basically claim a deep understanding allows them to solve problems using whatever method they wish? I do give you kudos for not using the tired old arguments about my system, my ears, or my inability to afford better cables, fuses, etc. Carry on, and happy fuse flipping. |
mitch2 Geoff, I did indeed try reversing a fuse and the most noticeable difference was the 15 minutes of my life I will never get back. I have now vowed to only try stupid audiophile parlor tricks at midnight during the fall switch from daylight savings to regular time, and to keep the time I spend on foolishness to less than one hour so I can pretend I didn’t waste my time. >>>>I wouldn’t expect you to hear it, Sunshine. For any number of reasons, but most likely you just psyched yourself out. 😳 in any case, judging by other folks’ experiences yours is obviously an aberration and can be safely thrown out. |
Mitch...try not to take Geoff too seriously. He comments on every thread in this forum and, I think endeavors to get his post score to 10,000 by June 15th. Let's see if he can. Ha! Love the reference to "parlor tricks" and, I agree, most of the tweaks highlighted here are foolishness. Makes you wonder how otherwise intelligent people can be so naive when it comes to audio improvements with no basis in reality. |
Geoff, I did indeed try reversing a fuse and the most noticeable difference was the 15 minutes of my life I will never get back. I have now vowed to only try stupid audiophile parlor tricks at midnight during the fall switch from daylight savings to regular time, and to keep the time I spend on foolishness to less than one hour so I can pretend I didn't waste my time. |
Yes, to me it is mumbo jumbo. One can make all the measurements they want, however at the end of the day, what makes high-end audio, high-end audio is the way it sounds to an individual. Blanket statements do not hold water, one has to experiment with different cable, be critical and honest. Zephyr is correct, price pays a minor factor in cable choice sometimes, it is the way it sounds in one's system that is the "ONLY" thing that matters. Russell's statement: " There is no listening difference as long as the wire is of adequate size." Is just false ... |
30+ years here of listening and trying a lot of very low-cost, low-cost, moderate and expensive wire and cables. The type of wire always makes a difference; note that I am NOT saying that expensive cables are the only ones as I'm talking about wire purely here. I've noticed differences between simple wire types that cost less than $50-$100 for the entire pair. |
Roger Russell mumbo jumbo? "THE KIND OF WIRE MADE NO DIFFERENCE It can be solid, stranded, copper, oxygen free copper, silver, etc.--or even "magic" wire--as long as the resistance is kept to be less than 5% of the speaker impedance. There is no listening difference as long as the wire is of adequate size." Absolutely not, I rely on my experimentation and experience of 45+ years. |
On the back of my Advents were instructions from Henry Kloss to connect the speakers with a good grade of lamp cord. I used 'audiophile-grade' Monster Cable speaker wire. Then a friend gave me a pair of Nordost Valhalla Reference speaker ribbons. Thanks. These made such an amazing improvement in my system as to make me a believer in Nordost. Lamp cord was OK, but Valhalla is superb. |
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@ieales, That's some wild swings on the KEF LS50. I just figured that if JBL rates my speaker at 6 ohms, they'd probably venture down lower than a 8 ohm rated speaker would so best to err on the side of caution and go with 14 gauge. Also, I'm rarely spot on but it's close enough for the girls I go with. 👍 All the best, Nonoise |
@nonoise even though 16 gauge is sufficient for cable lengths up to 36 feet, if your dealing with a 6 ohm speaker as opposed to a 8 ohm speaker, go for 14 gauge.Speakers are rarely an even 8Ω or any Ω for that matter. For example, a KEF LS50, nominally rate 8Ω by KEF, has an impedance curve from below 4 to more than 20Ω. see https://www.stereophile.com/content/kef-ls50-anniversary-model-loudspeaker-measurements You were correct on "you'll never know 'til you try" and if you'd said "...the manual may not cut it.", you'd have been spot on. |
l@ieales When I said "every chart I looked at" I was referring to those that recommend cable gauge and length, factored in with amp output. A few of them left out the category for ohms but those that did, it changed the recommendations some. Example: even though 16 gauge is sufficient for cable lengths up to 36 feet, if your dealing with a 6 ohm speaker as opposed to a 8 ohm speaker, go for 14 gauge. As for "you’ll never know until you try", I think it speaks for itself. And as or "the manual just won’t cut it", my personal experience tells me that despite the guidelines laid out by the pros, there’s still a lot of wiggle room in there for something that goes against the grain for reasons not yet known. You’re not confused: I’m just somewhat a contrarian in some matters. 😄 All the best, Nonoise |
@hifiman5 +1 I went up a gauge, from 16 to 14, with Tempo Electric speaker wire and there's not a trace of brightness or etch even though the extension in the highs (and lows) increased. What I have is an incredible see through ability along with a healthy dose of coherence that for once, actually separates musicians and instruments. It's the same old "hearing things that I didn't before" like a 1-2-3-4 beat on a instrument that I thought was just used on the intro but instead, keeps on repeating all the way through the cut. It can be easily heard now and it's not the least bit distracting, and turns out to be essential to the piece. It was meant to be heard, but every cable I have, including the 16 gauge Tempo Electric SC didn't reveal it. So, cable gauge must be taken into account as well. The same goes for the harpsichord in The Four Seasons: I can now hear every note played without distraction. I only went up to 14 gauge because my new speakers are 6 ohm and every chart I looked at said that regardless of cable length, ohm rating is a crucial determinate so I took the chance and it played out wonderfully. You'll never know until you try something and just referring to the manual just won't cut it. All the best, Nonoise |
Watch your "dogma". High quality solid core silver conductors allow for more efficient signal flow than the best copper. And no... well designed and implemented silver cables do not sound bright. Sheesh! With careful listening however, those micro details that many high end systems can reveal become just a bit more discernible with fine quality silver speaker cables. And yes, I have had both!🧐 |
The only things that matter for speaker wire: length, gauge and type of metal (copper is best). Cables are another matter. Please refer to this link: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm |
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The dealer said that I, as an engineer, am the hardest type of person to convince to buy expensive cables. I told him I didn't want any, that I was planning on buying Monoprice wires. He insisted on throwing the expensive interconnects into the deal for free, and an expensive power cable, too. Yes, I'm using them, and I'm sure it's a marketing ploy so others will see that I'm using them and figure they need to buy them, too. I have even less need for good cables because they're balanced! I'd advise people to spend their money on the beginning and the end of the signal stream which means tuners, cartridges, DACs, and speakers, and then preamps and amplifiers. |
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