C'mon, guys. Can't we stop with the nonsense and talk about audio and music???
Who says cables don't make a difference?
Funny, after all these years, people still say things like "you wasted all that money on cables".
There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference.
I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables.
One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using. That was the skyrocketing of Indra and Stealth. The Indra became one of the best reviewed cables ever.
Serguei now makes the Sakra-an IC that blows away the Indra!
I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I.
There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference.
I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables.
One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using. That was the skyrocketing of Indra and Stealth. The Indra became one of the best reviewed cables ever.
Serguei now makes the Sakra-an IC that blows away the Indra!
I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I.
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I just shared this post on a much older thread, but I think it is also of relevance here? So, yesterday I purchased a 3 meter Madrigal HPC XLR interconnect set (for peanuts 🥜 $173.50 ! ). After having now looked at this helical planar construction (behind the connectors) it shows how incredibly delicate this cable construction actually is! I had initially planned to chop it up, and make 2 or 3 shorter cables from it. But looking at the construction made me change my mind in a chiffy! 🙄😜 So now instead, I tried these items between my ML326S pre and my PASS X350.5 amp, replacing my Transparent Music Link Ultra... what an astounding difference this presented!!! Now so much for cables making a difference! They do sound brighter, but also clearer, more open, and have more PRAT than the 1.5 meter Transparent Ultra set, - which by comparison are build like a tank! A far less delicate construction, but truly well made, for sure. Now, if ones system is on the bright side those Madrigal HPC's - might - just be too much of a good thing, but if not - wow, they sounds about as delicate and refined as I do not recall having heard e.g. listening to piano CD recordings of Beethoven and Chopin. Addictive in one word. Listening to badly mastered CDs... - it gets pretty terrible e.g. "The Best Of David Sanbborn" - so... by comparison the Transparent shows less of that - badness -, for sure. So for now, I decided to keep the HPC set in my system, it just sounds too good, so delicate, so right - and this for a 30 odd year old cable! KUDOS to Madrigal of old! And AGAIN, yes, cables DO make a difference in deed. Michélle 🇿🇦 PS: To note, those HPC cables are constructed to have VERY low capacitance and need an amp input impedance *minimum* of 10k ohm. |
roberttdid Cleeds, Perhaps if some people, in the absence of being able to make and communicate a reasonable argument, just stepped back from their keyboard as opposed to resorting to insults that add nothing to the conversation, then yes. Till then .... I won’t apologize for defending myself. >>>>>So, besides begin a pseudo scientist you’re also a hypocrite? Makes sense, most of them are. |
@roberttdid Well, 10k is already a pretty low input impedance for a power amp, less than that, rather unusual... correct me if I'm wrong. It is my understanding that with VERY low capacitance pre-to-amp interconnects, which the HPC is, and and an equally low amp-input-impedance, a resonance circuit (Schwingkreis) can be created, in the process may destroy the amp. Any experts might chip in with further detail by all means. Michélle 🇿🇦 |
Considering people use short cables, as short as 1ft to connect pre-amps and power amps which would have very low capacitance, no, oscillation would not be an issue, and would not be a factor of low capacitance, and the output of the preamp is low impedance so would dampen oscillations. My point is it sounds like either a made up spec or one not based on sound reasoning. Many of these cables guys don't have a whole lot of knowledge w.r.t. electronics. |
It is my understanding that with VERY low capacitance pre-to-amp interconnects, which the HPC is, and and an equally low amp-input-impedance, a resonance circuit I might be wrong but I think this is only important (capacitance of cable) between a turntable and associated phono cartridge and your preamp. |
Digital XLR is AES/EBU or AES3 https://benchmarkmedia.com/products/benchmark-digital-xlr-cable Digital RCA is SPDIF Coax https://www.ramelectronics.net/Digital-Audio-SPDIF-Cable.aspx Has to do with the connector type and Ohms. |
You may be interested in this topic over on the Gretsch guitar forum. Consensus: Total BS to professional musicians who PLAY and RECORD the music we all listen to. Best comment: Expensive cables MAY sound a bit "brighter" if you like that, but most can't hear it and those who do don't like it. Best liked include Southcreek $10-$13 depending on length. Also: Many years ago Guitar Player magazine did a shootout between a lot of cables priced all over the spectrum. Their conclusion was that mega-expensive cables did sound different, though that difference wasn't always preferred, & that a simple Carvin cable, slightly more expensive than the cheapest in the survey, sounded as good as 90% of the others. (2) A couple years ago I eliminated about half the hum in my system by replacing an expensive George L cable with a much less expensive Mogami patch cord. Mogami's are expensive--about $65.00--but seem to last on the road with hard gigging and, of course, ROADIES handling the equipment. Also, brought out the fact that "do you have to rewire your amp and guitar as well?" Once again, musicians seem to have some answers... Cheers! |
I play the guitar myself, and cables would not have the same relevance there that they do in home audio. With home audio, we are placing cables after the source and changing that sound. With a guitar, most of the processing of the sound happens after the cable, in the amp, which then modifies the signal it receives from the pickups, and guitar amps have a lot of tone control over the sound, much more so than any cable does. So you really can not compare the two in the same discussion. When I play, I dial in the sound I want with the controls on the amp, a cable placed before the amp does its thing would not have great affect, and what it does have would be just one setting, and easily modified to a much greater extent by my manipulation of the different tone controls. Cables, and individual pieces of equipment are our tone controls in home audio. I am still unclear why it’s such a bad thing to have those in our hobby, though I believe feel that it impacts the sound in a negative with with active controls? |
The subject is broad. Most equipment has its own sound. It imparts that sound into what you hear, but you only have have sound for each piece for the most part. Some equipment does have the ability to select some different sounds. People buy audio equipment all the time because of the sound it gives them in their system. There’s no doubt about that. With a guitar amp, while each can ha e a totally different sound, they offer way more range of sounds and tones that they can create. Of course that’s because their purpose is different, they’re intended to create using, not reproduce it. I know many are against tone controls, etc on audio equipment, but personally I don’t see why, as long as that doesn’t take away anything. |
While there could be a difference, there is some bad physics used to sell some cables. For instance, skin effect and the claim to need to mitigate it with litz or ribbon construction. Skin effect is alleged to increase the resistance of speaker cables by diminishing the cross sectional ares of the cable conducting the signal. All this is true, but how much does the signal get attenuated by the increased resistance at 20 kHz? This can be calculated and approximated within a few percent by multiplying the skin depth by the outer circumference of the cross section. For typical 8 gauge cables ten feet the effective resistance changes from about 0.0064 Ohms to 0.011 Ohms. Put this in series with 4 Ohms such as a Magnepan speaker and the ratio of resistance is an increase on the order of about 0.01 db. Skin effect is not an issue and cable designers either know this or they ought to know the engineering/physics to calculate it. This issue destroys the credibility of so many of their other claims such as confusing grain boundaries with Johnson-Niquest thermal noise of any conductor and the insulation introducing electric field distortion from dipole molecules in the insulation. I do not question the possibility of a badly constructed distorting the signal but I do not believe thousands of dollars or even hundreds of dollars for a cable can pass a strictly conducted double-blind test over a well constructed cable. Could anybody whose ego is connected with spending $12,000 admit they hear no difference they don't imagine? I am not so sure. |
@drbarney1 , you really should have thrown in dielectric diffraction and triboelectric effect in there for good measure? ... I am laughing with you, not at you. I probably shouldn't tell you I once read a "respected" audiophile claim you shouldn't use speaker wire much bigger than 10awg because the effects of skin resistance get too large? ... ya, shook my head at that one too. Surface area is obviously too complex a concept for some people. |
Barney, I think you’ve got it backwards, people buy expensive stuff, because they hear a difference. Not buy it then feel like they have to say it’s good, though even then, I wouldn’t do that, as I do buy some thing without the ability to hear it first. Why is it that people believe that someone who purchases an expensive cable will lie about it, and yet not say the same thing about say an amp, or certainly not to the same level as with cables. It seems to me that some are trying too hard to convince themselves of something, so that their own ideas aren’t shattered. Hey, if you honestly tell me that you can’t hear a difference, where I honestly can, I’m not going to argue that at all. And I certainly would. It recommend that you spend money in that case as there is no value for you. Just as I might like electrostatic speakers and you might hate them. Then, why would I suggest that you buy them? Or just the opposite, why should I not buy something, because you don’t like them, or can’t hear a difference. Why can’t we each hear what we hear, and like what we like. No need to revert to arguments about how you feel some manufacturers market their products that you don’t like, we are discussing what I hear and like and what you like and hear, or don’t hear as the case may be. Why do so many feel the need to tell people who spend on cables that they’re basically fools and idiots, and have duped themselves into believing something that is not true. I don’t see those people trying so hard to convince the ones who can’t hear any differences that their hearing is somehow inadequate. |
It’s immoral to buy cables now huh? Lol. Better start picketing the Ferrari’s, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, etc dealer’s, and we need to start doing something about those immoral multi million dollar homes too. Boats, another one we need to clean up. Robert, are you’re saying you’re one of the hearing impaired ones? I guess I can make that assumption about people who don’t have the ability to hear properly to hear significant difference in audible sound, as it would be the same as your assumptions about those who are not impaired. I see most stating as fact that they hear what they hear, and they are not trying to tell you that you don’t hear what you don’t hear as aopposed to those who can’t hear, continually trying to tell them that they’re hallucinating. That’s the difference. Based on your comment maybe we should say that you could use some training in critical listening, so you are able to identify obvious differences in audible sounds. Or maybe we can just say that we all have differences in perceptions of what we hear and everyone has their own idea of what works for them. If you ever come to houston, maybe we can both listen to the same test and see what we see. I went into this expecting not to hear any difference so I could put that behind me once and for all. But what I did not do is go in with a bias that I wasn’t going to hear anything no matter what happened. I was surprised at the result, but as always, my ears are the finale judge in any decision about equipment. No matter how impressive something looks on paper, no matter the positive reviews, or negative reviews. A lot of positive reviews of course will get a product more noticed for consideration. |
It’s immoral to buy cables now huh? Lol. Better start picketing the Ferrari’s, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, etc dealer’s, and we need to start doing something about those immoral multi million dollar homes too. Boats, another one we need to clean up.The person who said that ... was obviously making a joke. I see most stating as fact that they hear what they hear, and they are not trying to tell you that you don’t hear what you don’t hear as aopposed to those who can’t hear, continually trying to tell them that they’re hallucinating. That’s the difference.No, they call them "hard of hearing", they insult their systems, say they have broken ears, any number of things. I am failing to see how that is worse than accusing someone else of expectation bias? Based on your comment maybe we should say that you could use some training in critical listening, so you are able to identify obvious differences in audible sounds.I would offer to teach the course if you like? How many critical listening experiments have you ran or been involved in? Or maybe we can just say that we all have differences in perceptions of what we hear and everyone has their own idea of what works for them.Which is critically much different claiming that a competently designed cable sounds noticeably better (or different) from another competently designed cable. You will again note I have been very clear, I know how to, and can induce a noticeable sonic change with a cable. However, it no mores takes $5,000 or even $1,000 to make a cable that either will or will not make a noticeable change. I really couldn't care if you spend $1,000 or $5,000 or $50,000 on a cable. It is your money and right now, and spending money would be good for the economy. However, when you (or others) come on here and state with complete conviction that you must spend X dollars, or must have a cable of Y quality (that costs X dollars), or that you must allocate Z% of your system cost to cables, then, knowing other people read these forums and are making decisions about their audio spend, then yes, it is quite reasonable for me and others to call present an alternative viewpoint. |
It’s obvious where your bias lies, and yes you have made that clear. I haven’t seen anyone saying hard of hearing other than as a funny response as I posted above to comments about them hallucinating what they hear. As a whole, those who don’t hear differences do indeed spend much more time and effort trying to convince everyone that they’re imagining things, where the opposite is generally not the case. Som you can actually teach someone that they can’t hear what they do hear? That would be an interesting proposition. Come to houston and do the same simple test I did, and if you are able to approach it with a fair and open mind, would like to see if you would still tell me that you don’t hear a difference. I have had actual nasa rocket scientists try to explain the laws of Physics, it’s a wonder we ever got to space as hard headed as some of them can be, lol, |
Oh come on be honest speedbump6, some of them are joking, but many are not and are rather biting in their comment. Not to mention how many threads have just been started in the last week or two extolling the virtues of cables and meant to put down / insult those who don’t agree?? YOU, may want to look at the topic of the thread you are posting in and the other one that has took up the bulk of your posts the last several days. If I do come to Houston, it does not matter if I have bias or not. All that matters is that you can detect a cable change ... without seeing the change, and we are not talking comparing 18 awg to proper speaker wire. |
I've never said people are hallucinating but are not controlling for biases which can affect your perception. Those are not the same things when someone says they hear differences I believe them. They do hear differences the thing I question is why. Is it really the cable or is it their perfectly normal human biases. |
It can be the cables and it can be, if subtle differences are there to be distinguished at all, relative human biases....I cannot myself imagine that cables all sound like one another based on my experiences.... But most peoples invest too much money in cables.... Night and day differences comes from controls over the 3 embeddings of an audio system, not from cables in my experience, except by replacing a very bad one with a very good one, but this is exception not rule... I dont understand all these childlike games here about cables....Common sense suffice to pose the problem and is sufficient to solve it.... Safe for those who wouched for no cables differences exist at all....And this is silly for those like me who hears differences.... A single difference between cables can be a result of some bias and can be placebo....But cumulative changes in the same positive directions cannot be reduced to illusion nor by blind test neither by measures....Then perhaps some single cable difference with another one can be argued for or against in a singular basis ....But cumulative positive differences is the heart of audio experience listening, that cannot be reduced to illusion only.... For me listening is my only way to test.... I test my own audio homemade tweaks with my ears for 2 years, and recreate completely my own sound experience by controlling the 3 embeddings, not by changing cables, even if they dont sound alike.... :) I dont sell nor buy anything except peanuts costing materials in the last 2 years..... Then Hi-Fi experience cost peanuts if you want to invest your listening learning skills and some basics.... That is my grain of pepper.... |
Thyname, I know I’m not changing anyone’s mind, when they’ve already made up their mind, that last post he said it all. He wants to see a change in the cable that he can measure, or apparently he won’t believe his own ears without that. It’s like they believe if they hear it, it’s a magic act, and there’s an explanation why it’s not real. There are many things we can’t measure out there, or modify our definition of because we found out our past ways to measure sow thing wasn’t correct in some way. It’s a good thing that most scientists or creators of new products and ideas don’t get stuck in that loop, or we’d never advance beyond where we are now. Man can’t fly, until he could. Still people who think the moonwalk was faked. If that’s what they want to believe, so be it. I can certainly see the idea that for what cables can cost, it’s insane to many. And I’m sure the level of profit is extremely high the more expensive they get. Only you can determine if what you hear is worth what the cost is, but it for sure is no one else’s business if you decide it is. As it’s no one else’s business to tell you you’re wrong for not spending on cables. Your budget, and more so the value they represent to you can only be answered by you. Why are these concepts so hard to understand. |
The funny thing is, certain people who believe cables are junk, ripoff, snake oil, like our senile friend Dow Jones here, or like AtDavid posting under his many fake accounts (this time “Robert” 😂😂) go in every single cable thread they can find. They search for them! Question is why? If something does not interest you, why bother? Serious question. |
I will add that people too much obsessed in a positive way or in a negative way about cables dont understand the basic problem in audio sound experience.... :) Sorry to offend some, but newbies to the hobby must read the truth..... Advice for newby to the hobby: choose good, not too pricey, cables, and forget them for the years to comes, revisit them after the controls of the audio system 3 embeddings will be optimally implemented then upgrade the cables if you want to and never before .... :) «My only master are my ears» - RCA Victor company’s dog « My wife screams so loud that my oscilloscope knows better than me what she say»-Groucho Marx « A flea whispers is so subtle but contains the world mysteries, alas! only my most sensible DB meter can catch it a bit» -Groucho Marx reading William Blake |
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Robert, what compelling evidence? We are talking about what we hear or do t hear, most of us are not engineers. I’m not asking for proof that someone does t hear something, nor do I believe proof needs to be shown that they do. Why can’t we take each other at their word about what we hear, either way. Why does offense have to be given or taken over the subject. Those who can hear, would like to have a discussion about that, why can’t they without the negativity. If someone I’d asking questions about their McIntosh amp and someone else shows up and starts trashing McIntosh as trash and inferior, is that right? The forum is here to try to learn something, hopefully. Open discussion. Tolerance of other people’s points of view. Neither side of the discussion should be pointing fingers, calling names or demeaning the other. No one should be made to fell like a fool for what they hear, all these things destroy open conversations and the ability to learn anything. |