Who says cables don't make a difference?

speedbump6,

What I find laughable is the extolling that every successive generation of more expensive cable is so much better than the last generation, when they can't even quantify, at any level, what the last generation did so well to make it "great". Knowing that every amplifier, every pre-amp, every speaker has a different input and output transfer function, it's a given that the ideal cable (if there is one), will be different all the time, and the newest, latest, greatest is unlikely to be any more optimum than the last one.

If you don't know what you actually did well in the last generation, since you can't actually quantify, or even really communicate other than hand-waving, what you are doing well now, how do you know you did better on the next generation and you didn't screw up everything else.  I know the usual "we tested it with our ears" will be thrown out, but unless you're testing thousands of combinations of equipment  (and some of these companies have barely a multi-meter, let alone racks and racks of components to mix and match, how do they know other than in their one or two reference systems it will help other systems, again given they don't even seem to know how they work?

I would say if you are running $800 power cords with $2500 speakers, that may be a bigger issue than quality of the power cord.

I think why @geoffkait jumped off the grid was all he had left to listen to was a broken record.

mglik,

What specific rooms did you go into and do you have some testimonies to back up your claim? What listening tests did they use to validate? You can walk into rooms in shows and out of phase speakers, they usually sound like crap due to abysmal acoustics which no cable will ever fix. Upgrading the sound in a CES room is like painting a turd.

You read my mind and saved me the typing :-)

djones512,346 posts06-28-2020 7:47pmI'm not following you, is the Indra a game changing product or a second rate piece of junk?

Now do a live microphone for an orchestra. Let's ignore that signal transfer doesn't work that way ....

You mean you listened to a high end system that just happened to have expensive cables.

stroud276125 posts07-01-2020 3:43pmI'm intrigued by this debate. I've listened to high-end cables at local audio events, and the music always sounds good.

+100

07-03-2020 11:29am“ WHO CARES “
Life is short, get a girlfriend, or donate your time, don’t waste it on garbage that’s been beaten to death 5000 times not to mention the fact that it’s boring.

I am pretty sure whether you use pure silver wire or cheap copper wire for the CAN bus in a Ferrari, the performance will be the same.

Pretty much mahgister. One side will never admit the potential for a sonic difference, even when from a technical standpoint, there can be in some circumstances, and the other side will always make wild claims that they will refuse to submit to anything approaching scrutiny. It's a lost cause, but why so many insist on creating threads that add absolutely 0 to the argument? That I have no idea.

mahgister2,669 posts07-02-2020 11:14amThese debates about cables are generally without interest.....

Defenders and opponents are like 2 cats reading the other's grin with a replicating grin, and the 2 cats disapearence at the end let only their 2 grins mimicking one another, without any cats anymore like the Cheshire cat in Lewis Carroll....

:)

Just a careful note, but the prevalence of mental disabilities is much higher than the prevalence of physical disabilities .... Not that I am implying anything.

denverfred32 posts07-03-2020 1:14pmWell said joecasey.The skeptics (deaf luddites) that can’t hear cables have only one argument now: price! They immediately cite two choices--$4 Radio Shack interconnects or $10000 MIT’s. Or worse. If these disabled folks would spend ANYTHING ($100) on a decent set of used cables they’d settle down and enjoy their system. Maybe they’re just cheap, skinflint wierdos who wouldn’t spend a dime to prove whether their stubborn attitude means anything.

joecasey424 posts07-03-2020 1:53pmEVERYTHING is equally important in my system. I neglect NOTHING!

Shouting this louder will never make it true, no matter how distorted modern audiophilia has become. The combination of speakers and room is still by far the most important, and primary what you "hear". It defines the vast majority of your frequency response, sound-stage, and imaging.  There are always caveats like the interaction of a low damping factor amplifier with speakers, or a poorly setup cartridge with high cross-talk killing soundstage/imaging, but otherwise that statement is true. Yes you can "break" your system with really cheap cables, but half-way competent cables are not going to "break" your system.

Unless you listen exclusively and closely near-field and you have a highly damped room, I will take a great set of speaker and a great room with relatively inexpensive electronics and half-decent cables, over lesser speakers and a poorly treated room, with price is no object electronics and cables. It would not even be close.

They tend to be set in their attitude regardless of enormous objective proof.

Subjective proof. There is very little objective proof. Objective proof would require either electrical testing that shows a change that correlates with known limits of human hearing and/or controlled listening tests.   w.r.t. measurement, a few areas:  high resistance from small gauge and/or excessive inductance or capacitance causing significant roll-off and wide-bandwidth amplifiers having instability, which for the most part has been "fixed" in newer designs.  Either of these issues can be addressed with very little expense. Shielding can also contribute to reduced noise floor, but again, that is addressed very inexpensively.

On the controlled listening tests, they tend not to support the conclusion that there are reliably identifiable differences in the sound between various cables when the volume is controlled for. To this day, I am not aware of even 1 public, controlled listening test, conducted by a cable vendor. Not 1. You gotta admit, that is a pretty damning statement, especially in light of the challenges and the willingness to let the vendor control every single variable.

I am not advocating 18 awg zip cord, and dollar store interconnects, but while audiophiles like to talk about "diminishing" returns, based on the objective evidence, the reality may be "no" returns past a certain price point and that price point may be relatively low.

@mahgister, objective proof does not have to have hard numbers, though it can, but critically it must isolate what is being tested, and the test must be repeatable. Saying "I changed this cable and I think it now sounds better", is subjective proof. At a stretch, you may even want to call it evidence.  Having someone else change the cable 10 times and not tell you what cable is in the system and you being able to reliably pick the one you claimed "sounded better". That is now objective proof.  There is no reducing consciousness to numbers. It is just a matter of reliable identification ... using nothing, absolutely nothing but your ears and brain. The only measurement that may occur is external to ensure levels are matched.

An objective proof in matter of cable is nearly impossible because of all factors implicated and also because it is impossible to reduce experiencing consciousness to numbers dials in principle....And the experiencing of cable difference is most of the time easy to test ourself by replacing one, for sure that is not a proof only an experience.... :)

It is easier mitch2, when most of the people who throw around terms like imaging and sound-stage, etc. don't understand the underlying mechanisms for how those things manifest.

And one could easily claim that most differences that audiophiles claim to hear between cables are just that, claims. Difference is people who make that claim would have more controlled experimental data on their side than you. It’s best not to insult others from a shaky position. What’s a more supportable position to assume you have infallible audio memory or to assume it is fallible?

Cue Mr. Pebbles with some pithy yet predictably inane and wrong comment.

hiendmmoe85 posts07-04-2020 1:03pmTo the original question. The people who claim a cable can make a difference are the ones that can hear the difference when a better cable is used. I’ve come to the conclusion anti cable propaganda is associated with a group of people who’s
hearing isn’t capable of hearing at a level where a good cable can make a difference.

So it took you 28 minutes to come up with that mr. Pebbles. You're slipping.

Oh right, Miller's was the other triggered cable tread :-)

Miller, that you would even create this thread to me just shows insecurity about your position. If it was so obvious posts like this would never exist.

It's being able to actually quantify these differences arrived at through characterization why people who understand the tech will accept audible differences in some cases and not others.  There is a reason companies like Kimber and Mogami list electrical specs.

They should be able to measure Home Depot zip cord and ANY cable from any other manufacturer and prove that the output from any of them is exactly the same as the output from all of them.

We also do things like hang cables a few inches from a speaker at high volume and measure the signal with a typical preamp/amp impedance to show that vibration typically has no impact. Maybe we measure the voltage on a cable just sitting there with a typical preamp/amp impedance to show that it is near 0 debunking crazy notions of "static" voltage that require burn in to fix.

Most medical equipment will use fairly inexpensive shielded AC cables but that is as much to prevent noise into other equipment as noise into the one with the cord.
Most medical wire is application specific and there are no voodoo claims, there are hard scientific reasons, measurements and results. Much of the requirements are purely mechanical, but some are for extremely low signal levels with high impedance where noise susceptibility is much much higher than anything in audio.

I know for a fact that the MD's have moved beyond zip cord and Belkin plug strips.
Why, if everything comes out the same?

One word Mahgister, religion.

And all the testimonies in this direction cannot be explained by an induced mass placebo effect taking place in several phases ....

Nothing like a guy who sells "Magic Pebbles" ... Which are literally pebbles, probably of the aquarium variety in a bag as an audio tweak, and another guy who thinks cables will behave the same in all systems which is of course impossible (unless there is no audible difference).  You two are like the negative of a call to authority. Call to ridiculousness?   Perhaps if all cables matter proponents had even 1 .. just one spokesperson who could talk in any manner other than handwaving and "just trust me" sentences, you would have a better half leg to stand on.


Miller I will put my listening skills up against yours any day. This is what I do .... Except I listen and measure. I even have other people listen ... Lots and lots of people over many years. I have even written papers on critical Subjective listening.  This tired argument about not hearing good enough is just that, tired, especially when coming from a group that as a whole has severely reduced hearing capacity.

One could say a broken record sounds the same on any player :-)

In engine break in there is a component (the rings) that literally moves to find the best spot. Care to tell me what "moves" in a cable during break in?

Weird, you seem triggered by anyone who dares question your world view. You seem rather fixated. Perhaps you should worry more about the lack of useful information in your posts and less about what others post.

boxer125,006 posts07-05-2020 9:52pm

Weird... These are the same qualifications that "atdavid" had. Now go away.

Boxer and Andy, did this atdavid make you guys look a bit foolish too? I will have to read his/her posts. Maybe you two are the same person. Seem to hang around the same posts....hmmm

P.s. Andy electrons always move. Maybe not far but they always move. Interconnects do not really heat up ... So not much friction. Any idea of the current densities?

Speed bump, no one care if someone spends $1k or $10k on a cable. I do care when someone tries to convince someone else to spend $2k or $5k on a cable when that is a waste given the many other larger deficiencies likely in their system. Unless you have some pretty poor cables the cables are not the system bottleneck. $100 speaker cables that have no significant deficiencies or poor amp interactions on a $25k well designed speaker is always going to sound better than a $10k cable on a similarly designed $15k speaker.

Watch some videos posted by cable vendors. It's laughable the level of equipment many of them have. Don't take my word for it.

I think Boxer and Andy are the same people. They both get offended when they don't understand the topic and they both make childish attacks when accurate statements are made that "offend them". Lots of posta, little added to the conversations.


I must say I love the childish "copy and paste" when you don't understand something. No one will ever see through that childish tactic ... Nudge nudge wink wink

What's funny is making a post expecting everyone to agree with you, then being shocked when they do not. Your post at some level was an inane rant after all.

mglik OP112 posts07-06-2020 12:50pmHard to believe the inane rant that this thread has devolved!
Can’t believe that people still think that cables don’t make a difference...

mahgister,

I don't have a religion. Religion would imply faith without evidence. My views on cables are anything but faith without evidence, and my views on cables are consistent; past a relatively low dollar value, the gains are essentially 0 if competently designed and don't induce issues with the amplifier.

and to a non-believer, no evidence is possible.

It's possible, it just never happens. That whole cause and effect thing. You can't say something is evidence, unless you can definitively assign cause, you can't claim something is evidence of something else.

boxer12, I already know you are Andy2, but why this attempt to deflect by making it all about me when you can't participate in the discussion?  It's not my fault. Stop blaming me for your inadequacies.

Cleeds,

Perhaps if some people, in the absence of being able to make and communicate a reasonable argument, just stepped back from their keyboard as opposed to resorting to insults that add nothing to the conversation, then yes. Till then ....   I won't apologize for defending myself.

I am quite confident to state that i have done far more listening tests in my life so far then you will ever do. It is a good part of how I have spent my career. Hard to design acoustic spaces without listening (especially for critical customers). Hard to design products that incorporate acoustics and electronics without listening, especially when you are trying to trade off many variables that are highly subjective. Of course, I don't just throw on a record or play a file and go "how does it sound", because my customers could have done that. I did professional controlled listening tests both to remove bias, and to make customers clearly aware of the trade-offs, changes, potential for signal processing to modify perceptive space, bandwidth/cost trade-offs, etc.  That came rather easily having done actual research in audio, signal processing and acoustics. You will notice I tend not to talk in hand waving but discuss actual engineering concepts.

You can claim you are not Andy2, but the similarities are too great, including posting about the same time as well. Similar writing styles, saying similar things.

Why do you make so many posts, yet never bring any useful information to the table?

You and others who make laughable statements about choosing systems by measurements must be really insecure. Perhaps you know what I know, that people who are heavy into the technology and engineering of audio don't do a little bit of listening testing. They do huge amounts of listening testing. They are obsessed with listening and detecting the slightest hints of anything wrong, or off, and why it is happening. Difference is .... they start by assuming both their equipment and their ears are wrong, then work towards figure out which is which. They don't assume their ears\brain are perfect, knowing far too well they are not. Sometimes I have to work hard to just enjoy music as I become too focused on what is wrong, and not just enjoying what is right. I know all kinds about all kinds of music customers, from concert hall owners, to concert goers, to musicians, to studio managers, to speaker designers, to people who design DAC chips, even streaming service providers, and yes, to end customers. You on the other hand know little about my world, and the people who actually develop and work with this technology and the measurements you like to put down. You may want to consider your ignorance in this area before making ignorant comments.

“There's a sucker born every minute.”
― P.T. Barnum

"you may fool people for a time; you can fool a part of the people all the time; but you can’t fool all the people all the time.” ... possibly said by Lincoln, possibly not, but I would rather be in the group of people who are not fooled all the time :-)

Oh, and I am rather flattered that you dedicated 4 long and meandering posts in response to me this morning. I usually only trigger you enough for 1 or 2. However, while you play with your magic pebbles I must get back to real audio sciency stuff. No worries, you can still share a story about sweeping floors or something at NASA to feel important.

5 posts about me and it’s not even 8am yet? I feel all warm inside now. Wear your "skeptic" hat proudly even if it is a few sizes too small. Flat Earth believers are proud in their skepticism too.  Oh just to let you know, that mirror most of us have that allows for self reflection? Yours appears to be broken. That may be why you are not able to go more than what 2 or 3 posts without and ad-hom. No worries, most other wanna be bullies think they are the victim too.

It is rather cute that you quote "Zen and the art of debunkery". It was written by someone like you, jealous with no accomplishments in the sciences. Unable to earn the respect of actual scientists (see lack of accomplishments ) he devoted himself to attacking people who actually achieve success in the sciences, while continuing, you guessed it, to actually accomplish nothing. If this is who you want to quote, and you think the writings of this do nothing fellow charlatan matter ... Well then, have at it

That would make 6. We have a new record, and it’s not even noon yet. Do you normally get more triggered on a Tuesday morning? It would be helpful to let me know so I can maximize my ROI. Should I expect another episode of "Quotes from Questionable People that may you go huh?" I am not sure you can top that debunking site and it’s creator, but gosh darn I would love to see you try. If you have a personal relationship with Dan, could you pass a message on for me? Ghostbusters was meant as entertainment. It was not a documentary.

Since 1995 Dan has been probing various aspects of the afterlife, including near-death experiences, out-of-body experiences, life-between-lives, and reincarnation. He also investigates communication with the “other side” via such means as mental mediumship, physical mediumship, spontaneous communication events and the use of technology (instrumental transcommunication). Following the passing of his partner Jane in 2007, Dan experienced a series of unmistakable communications from her.

Dan’s latest projects include a series of documentary films about afterlife research. At the presentation, Dan will show the first one--a documentary about instrumental transcommunication entitled CALLING EARTH. The film includes an individual who demonstrates that he can produce photos of deceased individuals on anyone’s digital camera."

Why would a low capacitance cable need a high impedance amplifier input?

Considering people use short cables, as short as 1ft to connect pre-amps and power amps which would have very low capacitance, no, oscillation would not be an issue, and would not be a factor of low capacitance, and the output of the preamp is low impedance so would dampen oscillations. My point is it sounds like either a made up spec or one not based on sound reasoning. Many of these cables guys don't have a whole lot of knowledge w.r.t. electronics.

Unfortunately, my point was proven too early Cleeds.

Some low capacitance cables with some high bandwidth not fully stable amplifiers in the old days 80s'/90's, were not happy.

@drbarney1 , you really should have thrown in dielectric diffraction and triboelectric effect in there for good measure?  ... I am laughing with you, not at you.  I probably shouldn't tell you I once read a "respected" audiophile claim you shouldn't use speaker wire much bigger than 10awg because the effects of skin resistance get too large? ... ya, shook my head at that one too. Surface area is obviously too complex a concept for some people.

No, they don't try to convince them of it. They just state is as a fact ... while never putting their own ears/brain to critical evaluation.

I don’t see those people trying so hard to convince the ones who can’t hear any differences that their hearing is somehow inadequate.

It’s immoral to buy cables now huh? Lol. Better start picketing the Ferrari’s, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, etc dealer’s, and we need to start doing something about those immoral multi million dollar homes too. Boats, another one we need to clean up.

The person who said that ... was obviously making a joke.

I see most stating as fact that they hear what they hear, and they are not trying to tell you that you don’t hear what you don’t hear as aopposed to those who can’t hear, continually trying to tell them that they’re hallucinating. That’s the difference.

No, they call them "hard of hearing", they insult their systems, say they have broken ears, any number of things.  I am failing to see how that is worse than accusing someone else of expectation bias?

Based on your comment maybe we should say that you could use some training in critical listening, so you are able to identify obvious differences in audible sounds.

I would offer to teach the course if you like?  How many critical listening experiments have you ran or been involved in?

Or maybe we can just say that we all have differences in perceptions of what we hear and everyone has their own idea of what works for them.

Which is critically much different claiming that a competently designed cable sounds noticeably better (or different) from another competently designed cable. You will again note I have been very clear, I know how to, and can induce a noticeable sonic change with a cable. However, it no mores takes $5,000 or even $1,000 to make a cable that either will or will not make a noticeable change.  I really couldn't care if you spend $1,000 or $5,000 or $50,000 on a cable. It is your money and right now, and spending money would be good for the economy. However, when you (or others) come on here and state with complete conviction that you must spend X dollars, or must have a cable of Y quality (that costs X dollars), or that you must allocate Z% of your system cost to cables, then, knowing other people read these forums and are making decisions about their audio spend, then yes, it is quite reasonable for me and others to call present an alternative viewpoint.

Oh come on be honest speedbump6, some of them are joking, but many are not and are rather biting in their comment. Not to mention how many threads have just been started in the last week or two extolling the virtues of cables and meant to put down / insult those who don’t agree??

YOU, may want to look at the topic of the thread you are posting in and the other one that has took up the bulk of your posts the last several days.

If I do come to Houston, it does not matter if I have bias or not. All that matters is that you can detect a cable change ... without seeing the change, and we are not talking comparing 18 awg to proper speaker wire.

Mitch2 I don't worry about cables but some are really emotionally attached to them. It makes them turn into rather unpleasant people :-)

Oh give me a break speedbump6, the whole point of this thread and similar ones, READ THE TITLE, is to instigate division. It is only in threads like this, from both sides of the fence that arguments get heated. Get over yourself. You are no saint, you are just as condescending if not more than the people you claim are. This thread is not to discuss the wonders of cables, it is to proclaim them, and try to stifle any discussion.