Funny, after all these years, people still say things like "you wasted all that money on cables". There are still those who believe cables don't make a difference. I once did marketing for a cable line I consider to be about the best-Stealth Audio Cables. One CES, I walked the rooms with the designer/owner, Serguei Timachev. He carried a pair of his then new Indra interconnects. Going from room to room he asked the room runners to replace their source to preamp IC with the Indra. There was not one that was not completely flabbergasted and said that the Indras blew away what they were using. That was the skyrocketing of Indra and Stealth. The Indra became one of the best reviewed cables ever. Serguei now makes the Sakra-an IC that blows away the Indra! I don't understand why some still do not value cables as much as I.
(Please forgive my irony if you are a complete beginner and just recently discovered the room importance).
Even many of those who speak about the room importance underestimated the impact of room treatment....
Most people think about passive room tretment when they think about this matter...It is ONLY the 1/3 of the problem.... In my experience and experiment in a DEDICATED audio room 2/3 of the results comes from ACTIVE room treatment...
Then forgive my lack of irony and seriousness if you are a beginner in these matter or think you are not one.. :)
They tend to be set in their attitude regardless of enormous objective proof.
Subjective proof. There is very little objective proof. Objective proof would require either electrical testing that shows a change that correlates with known limits of human hearing and/or controlled listening tests. w.r.t. measurement, a few areas: high resistance from small gauge and/or excessive inductance or capacitance causing significant roll-off and wide-bandwidth amplifiers having instability, which for the most part has been "fixed" in newer designs. Either of these issues can be addressed with very little expense. Shielding can also contribute to reduced noise floor, but again, that is addressed very inexpensively.
On the controlled listening tests, they tend not to support the conclusion that there are reliably identifiable differences in the sound between various cables when the volume is controlled for. To this day, I am not aware of even 1 public, controlled listening test, conducted by a cable vendor. Not 1. You gotta admit, that is a pretty damning statement, especially in light of the challenges and the willingness to let the vendor control every single variable.
I am not advocating 18 awg zip cord, and dollar store interconnects, but while audiophiles like to talk about "diminishing" returns, based on the objective evidence, the reality may be "no" returns past a certain price point and that price point may be relatively low.
robberrttddidd On the controlled listening tests, they tend not to support the conclusion that there are reliably identifiable differences in the sound between various cables when the volume is controlled for. To this day, I am not aware of even 1 public, controlled listening test, conducted by a cable vendor. Not 1. You gotta admit, that is a pretty damning statement, especially in light of the challenges and the willingness to let the vendor control every single variable.
>>>>Oh, I don’t know the only company that claims to do blind testing is Harman Kardon or whatever their name is and their stuff is probably junk, anyway. If you’re so high on blind tests why don’t you volunteer to do some blind tests and report your results. I dare you.
There is only subjective experience and experience are always subjective...
The true reason why cables importance is exagerated among audiophiles is in relation to the more impactful other urgent problems to solve: principally the 3 embeddings...
An objective proof in matter of cable is nearly impossible because of all factors implicated and also because it is impossible to reduce experiencing consciousness to numbers dials in principle....And the experiencing of cable difference is most of the time easy to test ourself by replacing one, for sure that is not a proof only an experience.... :)
My best....
« i divorce because i fail to choose my wife in a blindtest»- Groucho Marx
« After seeing God, after this experience, who wants on top of that a proof ? » -Groucho Marx
More to the point, one of the building blocks of the scientific method is empirical evidence, you know, like listening results. All of this subjective vs objective debate really concerns evidence, not proof. A single blind test or any test fro that matter is not really evidence of anything. It’s the preponderance of the evidence resulting from many tests that has some meaning. But not one test. Even though pseudo skeptics would have you believe controlled double blind tests separate the hoaxes from the non hoaxes. It’s the same jibber jabber it always was.
If a frog 🐸 had wings he wouldn’t bump his butt so much. - Elvira Madigan
joecasey424 posts07-03-2020 1:53pmEVERYTHING is equally important in my system. I neglect NOTHING!
Shouting this louder will never make it true, no matter how distorted modern audiophilia has become. The combination of speakers and room is still by far the most important, and primary what you "hear". It defines the vast majority of your frequency response, sound-stage, and imaging. There are always caveats like the interaction of a low damping factor amplifier with speakers, or a poorly setup cartridge with high cross-talk killing soundstage/imaging, but otherwise that statement is true. Yes you can "break" your system with really cheap cables, but half-way competent cables are not going to "break" your system.
Unless you listen exclusively and closely near-field and you have a highly damped room, I will take a great set of speaker and a great room with relatively inexpensive electronics and half-decent cables, over lesser speakers and a poorly treated room, with price is no object electronics and cables. It would not even be close.
The electrical grid of the house is very important also in my experience.....
And passive room treatment only are not sufficient to gives wings to the audio system most of the times....ACTIVE room tretament is necessary for that unbeknownst to most.... :)
@mahgister, objective proof does not have to have hard numbers, though it can, but critically it must isolate what is being tested, and the test must be repeatable. Saying "I changed this cable and I think it now sounds better", is subjective proof. At a stretch, you may even want to call it evidence. Having someone else change the cable 10 times and not tell you what cable is in the system and you being able to reliably pick the one you claimed "sounded better". That is now objective proof. There is no reducing consciousness to numbers. It is just a matter of reliable identification ... using nothing, absolutely nothing but your ears and brain. The only measurement that may occur is external to ensure levels are matched.
An objective proof in matter of cable is nearly impossible because of all factors implicated and also because it is impossible to reduce experiencing consciousness to numbers dials in principle....And the experiencing of cable difference is most of the time easy to test ourself by replacing one, for sure that is not a proof only an experience.... :)
objective proof does not have to have hard numbers, though it can, but critically it must isolate what is being tested,
My experience with my electrical treated grid, in my house, with my electronic components, with my cd and files, the well known one i love the best, how can we reproduce that in an another location?
You cannot isolate these encompassing elements all linked in one audio systen, MINE....
This Evidence is easily accessible to experience in your own house for yourself to repeat with your rightfully treated audio system.... Objective proof with a volontary crowd of guinea pigs and a repeatable experiment not so, especially in a non treated electrical grid, and with a non treated room , and with non controlled resonant system....They are many factors implicated dont you see?
But your goal is it to make an experience for yourself? or debunk audiophile claim of differences?
They won’t find a vaccine any time soon. Might as well enjoy however long you have left. 🏖 Yes, I know what you’re thinking, but they said it would be available very soon.
It's not really that hard mahgister. I come to your house and you step outside while I change 1 speaker cable or not. I touch nothing else. I blindfold you, you come back in sit in your favorite place and tell me which cable I changed or didn't. Get it right 8 out of 10 times you have your objective proof a cable matters.
Considering the many feet of run-of-the-mill OFC copper wire inside of the electronics in a given system, it is surprising that connecting cables could have the profound effect that many report. The main difference between connecting cables and the wire inside of the electronics is susceptibility to EMI and RFI, which can be largely mitigated through geometry and shielding, both of which are inexpensive to implement. Keeping
electronics
close together and close to the power source helps since the LCR parameters increase with length.
If you are an "audiophile" for heaven's sake never look at the hook-up wire inside of your speakers. Manufacturers have been making great sounding gear and speakers for years without using break-the-bank exotic wire.
The amount of time and money spent "evaluating" cables is nothing short of amazing. That so many believe the slightly perceptible differences heard between different cables can actually "transform" the sound of their systems is a glowing testament to the power of the illusory truth effect as well as the genius of the collective marketing teams for well-known cable manufacturers - kudos to them!
It is easier mitch2, when most of the people who throw around terms like imaging and sound-stage, etc. don't understand the underlying mechanisms for how those things manifest.
It’s not really that hard mahgister. I come to your house and you step outside while I change 1 speaker cable or not. I touch nothing else. I blindfold you, you come back in sit in your favorite place and tell me which cable I changed or didn’t. Get it right 8 out of 10 times you have your objective proof a cable matters.
You are very naive here,sorry....
Here is an anecdote that will explain the matter: When i listened my system some months ago, when accidentally some stones fell of my grid in the night before , i dont suspect it immediately at first, it takes sometimes, a few hours, and my listening being subconsciously unsatisfied was alerting my consciousness, i decided after a moment to verify the grid discovering the cause of the problem...This experience of the falling off of some stones changing the sound arrived a few times for me and for a friend of mine who tried my idea also....
It is not my HEARING consciousness that experienced on the spot and decided that the sound was not like it was one day ago.... At first i dont noticed something big or even something.... But with the times passing my FEELING subconsciousness alerted my consciousness.... My musical sound memory is there in my subconscious body not in my consciousness... It is not the exact memory of the sound that is imprinted in my body-brain, it is the FEELINGS in my sensitive body that contains the memory and that are the memory not the sound "per se"...
Then if you understand what i speak about you can understand the absurdity of your proposal test in the conditions in which you imagine it...
My regards to you....
P.S. but if i choose the musical files i use to test my audio system, i will probably pass your test with my stones grid or other tweaks easy to takes off.... with the cables it is too subtle and too long to takes them off and replace them and cables are sometimes very subtle in their differences.... :)
Most people condition themselves not being able to hears any differences, their system is not even rightly embedded most of the times.... Listening is something we must learn....Hearing is quantifiable in hertz, listening hability is not.....
read my explanation .... I apologize i dont wanted to be rude with you....Just giving my experience and answering your test challenge with my life real accidental test....
I love Grocho quotes! "Saw an elephant in my pajamas yesterday. What he was doing in my pajamas I'll never know." Specifically, having to show proof after experiencing/seeing G-d.
I miswrote when I mentioned "overwhelming objective proof". I really referred to decades of learning about Audio by reading the magazines, etc. Surely, their reviewers have bias toward certain products. However, surely they also have their most prized asset, their reputation. Even if highly subjective, I believe in a "critical mass" of reviewers, audiophiles and others who have made High End cables a significant part of Audio. I have never read any Audio journalism saying expensive cables are BS.
George wrote: Boxer12; I have ever made a comment about ICs, cheap or expensive. You have me confused with someone else, I’m afraid.
Boxers response: No confusion on my part... you stated in an earlier post you are using "mycablemart" IC's and are satisfied with them. These are the definition of cheap cables.
I explained above, but I’ll do it again. Until your post, I had never seen Interconnects abbreviated “IC”. I am a retired semiconductor design engineer by profession. When I see the term IC, I don’t naturally think of interconnects, I think of operational amplifiers, DAC chips, microprocessors, etc. So I misunderstood when you attributed a comment about “cheap ICs” to me.
And yes, mycablemart interconnects are cheap and cheerful. They are also well made and use real RG59U cable. They also seem to be more neutral than other brands like Cardas, AudioQuest, and Kimber. I’ve “tested“ this by listening to the un-balanced output of a “mk II” Yggdrasil to a Stax SRM-700T ESL amplifier and a pair of Stax SR-009s ESL ‘phones and swapping out the interconnects. Since the mix I listened to of jazz and classical symphonic recordings were recorded, live, by me, I know what they sound like. Not terribly scientific, I agree, but since nobody knows why cables alter the sound, I know of no scientific way to test them.Remember, I am not advocating that cables have no sound. I’m advocating that the sound that they impart on the sound of one’s system is unpredictable, the result of attenuating some portion of the audio spectrum, and because of that, they are snake-oil and a monumentally poor value. While, most certainly, YMMV, I choose not to open that particular Pandora’s box.
So far, the ones I have spoken to like to glide on the top of whatever conductor is available, but who knows? At $12,000, even an electron may sell out.
No, unbroken cables of the appropriate gauge are cables. Electrons don't actually care from what they told me.
Ack chew ally, electrons don’t really care since they aren’t moving. It’s the PHOTONS you need to interview. A photon checked into a Hotel, the clerk asked if he had any baggage. The photon replied, no, I’m traveling light. Note to self: It looks like I’m on a roll today and it’s not even time for breakfast.
Who would want a cable that attenuates portions of the audio spectrum
that they are trying to conduct from one component to another? That
means that if you hear a difference between two interconnects it’s
because the two cables in question are attenuating different parts of
the audio spectrum!
At a high level this is pretty true. And the unsaid argument (well, someone else above did say it) against expensive cables is that they simply cost too much given their contribution (or in deference to the above, lack of impairment). In optimizing ANYTHING, sound included, the question must always be "Can i spend this money elsewhere and get more benefit". I would say for $6k cables the answer is always yes. Most often on substantially better speakers (and $6k can buy quite an upgrade, unless you have IRSs or WAMMs or .....
But the above quote - and I'm being picky here -- is not quite technically correct. Cables can do more than attenuate frequencies. They can time-smear them - mostly via the dialectic (insulation). Just like in regular capacitors the linearity of the insulation varies greatly. Teflon (PTFE) and expanded polyprop and polyeth are about the best. Weird capacitive-inductive effects might also cause some overshoot and/or ringing, although I have never seen it on a scope. But we're being theoretical here, so lets include more proven theories.
Is this effect significant? Probably not very. Is it real and well understood? yes. We can also get diode effects from terminations (connectors).
In the grand scheme I find that there are awful cables, mostly pretty darm good ones, especially the ones i make myself, and some exotic ones that are both excellent and terrible. I suspect some of the terrible ones are attractive tone controls in some systems, like to tame the silly rising high end of many cartridges currently popular (yikes, holy screeech batman!)
It is easier mitch2, when most of the people who throw around terms like
imaging and sound-stage, etc. don't understand the underlying
mechanisms for how those things manifest.
To be fair one can hear without understanding how. We as a species did it for millenia and avoided sabre-toothed tigers just fine. well, sometimes not :-)
The one’s that’d say ... here kitty kitty- received the Darwin Award🏆 That is, for those who believe we evolved from monkeys. 🙉 Actually, a few specimens here may support that theory 😂
sure Interconnects can smear, but they shouldn’t be able to do that at audio frequencies. Coax can do lots of “funny“ things, but they do them at VHF and UHF frequencies and above. At real low frequencies, like audio, none of these “exotic” cable effects have any or very little affect. And you are correct to point out that most boutique cables represent merely very minuscule, fixed, “tone controls”. A digital parametric or full spectrum, decade or octave style equalizer would do a much better job than an expensive pair of interconnects. 🙂
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
