Where are the young audiophiles?

Imagine what we could buy if we weren't forced to pay tax on our home even when retired? $200 per week. My first system cost 2 weeks of that. Technics table, Rotel amp, KEF spreakers. 

Walmart now has vinyl .Go to Best Buy and see vinyl Audio Technica and Pioneer  turntables. 23 year old  asks how all this works and they want buy it from there pay.  I see more and more ads on tv with speakers and turntables in the background and even some.  Sometimes a young person comes over and they want to know how get started.  

Very simple answer $$$$$! The “hi-fi” industry has priced it self into this situation. Can I spend 100k on a system if I want yes! Can I justify spending more than I did on my first house for music no!
 On the flip side I have bought quality self powered speakers with zen blue wi-fi for my daughters. It needs to be simple or they will not use it. They were reluctant to start but over time they have come to realize the speakers on their phone suck. It is on us who love the music and this industry to introduce it to the next generation so it does not go with the dinosaurs.

I'm 28 years old. We are here, just not in masses. 

I offered a system to my son, 31yrs, & he didn't want it. B&Ws & Rotel stuff. He uses Ear buds & phone music. I don't get it. He's up & coming, runs the family business & has money.  Where have I failed!

As others noted, I think the key factors in what the mass of young people buy is cost and convenience.  Most don’t yet have high incomes and other purchases take priority.  Also, younger Americans were raised to have short attention spans and crave new stimulation.  They aren’t prone to following anything down a rabbit hole and prefer to use what is convenient and serves the purpose.  New music is here today and gone tomorrow — I don’t think young people now will long to hear again the tunes that are currently popular . . not as oldsters today still savor Steely Dan, Alman Brothers or Linda Ronstadt.  They want things to go.

If no one mentioned it, YouTube channels Zero fidelity, Thomas, and Jay who are all under 40 (I think) and appear to have lots of younger viewers.  
Sure there is tons of very pricey gear today, but the flip side is that technology has advanced and there are lots good sounding gear way under $1000.

It is true the pandemic has catapulted the business. My audio guy has been in business for over twenty years and has never seen this level of demand. So, this will probably have created a bunch of new enthusiasts. And music never goes out of fashion... so it will not go away.

I think over forty is the age when you appreciate quality things more and better SQ is one of them....you just feel that time is running and you don’t want to miss something good... so youngsters will catch up later....now they have other priorities in their mind. 

I have a realtor who sends me MLS listings in our area so we can track the approximate value of our home.  Over the past 3 years I have yet to see a pair of stereo speakers pictured in any room of their house.  I will see $5,000 entertainment cabinet with a wide screen TV and they are listening to the TV speakers.

Based on this, there aren't many audiophiles period.  You would think retailers would be doing some direct mail advertising to affluent areas to spark interest.  Based on this, I don't know how retailers even exist.  I would think manufactures would help them to advertise their businesses and sound systems as a new platform for entertainment.

There may be few, but I do know a couple of early 20's audiophiles that are very much into vintage gear.  One in particular, refurbishes tube amps, idler turntables, and reel to reel tape decks.  He is a big fan of older Klipsch gear and actually has a single Klipshorn.  He also has a big vintage JBL stereo speakers and a pair of homemade Altec 604 speakers.  With the 604's, he has been trying various crossover designs, but is still not satisfied and will be experimenting with augmenting the system with a midrange compression driver and horn.  He also has refurbished two Thorens 124 tables and is waiting on a Garrard 401 that he found for a good price.  He may be young, but, he has done far more than I've done as far as hands-on activity.  Now, if only he can figure out how to refurbish the eight or so Otari MX 5050 tape machines he bought from a defunct books-on-tape company.

Being a 30 year retail A/V veteran, there has been a trend away from 2 ch audio for the most part across the board for at least 15 years, 99% of my customers purchase sound bars. Why? Smart tv's can be the source of all entertainment: only 2 wires are required: power and hdmi arc & the tv remote can control the system. If they want a little more advancement, they will move up to Sonos: Still a soundbar but now they have a wireless multi-room option. Only a few dedicated enthusiasts purchase 5.1 or greater systems & 2 ch music only systems are almost non existent. The average customer perceives 2 ch stereo as waste of resources that can be spent elsewhere. The average 2 ch music customer or owner is older from an age when hanging out and listening to tunes on an affordable system was a primary form of entertainment & there was a stereo only store on every city block. So that leaves the current 2 ch crowd in 60 & above age group with the means to afford this very expensive hobby.

sufmuz said:
"I think over forty is the age when you appreciate quality things more and better SQ is one of them....you just feel that time is running and you don’t want to miss something good... so youngsters will catch up later....now they have other priorities in their mind."
 
Being 66 and looking back, I think that there is a lot of truth in what he said. I’ve been a music and audio guy for over 45 years, but I value the experience even more now because I know that time is finite.

There happy with ear buds.

The market is evolving away from brick and mortar, with direct to consumer, active speakers, and lifestyle type components.

The latter two is a response to the younger generation being less interested in audio as a serious hobby, but a group nonetheless with some bucks and a desire for nice sounding units. The industry is smart to see the shift, as these sales can compensate for the lower demand powered by us passionate hobbyists.

When I was a kid I had my parents old Monkey Wards stereo system from the 70's. I liked how it sounded but at that time I couldn't afford a walkman (not sure they were out then) so listening to music was done at home. In the mid 80's I got a walkman and I rarely listened to my stereo in my room anymore.

Its easy to look down your noise at the younger generation but music is different now. You would be this way too if, in High School/College you had 100 mullion songs you could listen to anywhere on earth.

Some High End manufacturers does targeting youngsters with their products through retail. Devialet is one of them. 
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1618688-REG/devialet_mm168us_phantom_i_1100w_wireless.html

Maybe there are young audiophiles, I just don't know any.

I am 67, been doing this since I was 15.  I still consider myself young.  

The young people are the smart ones. They just listen to music as they please. No comparisons, no pressure, no grandstanding, no ridicule, no obsessing.....just listening when and how they please. Fact is it’s nothing hard to get good sound for not much these days. The times they are a changing.  Omg what the heck am I doing?????  I must be nuts. 

@stereo5 Good for you! You are only old if you think you are old.

@mapman  you got that right!

It is sad especially when there are very few audio guys under the age of 60 to 65 but we are here i knot of a few in the 40 to 50 year old range but we do not have the numbers to sustain the majority of the brick and mortar stores and it is sad when they do or have to close but the trend i have been seeing over the past few years is that they are disappearing at an alarming rate.

I think the high end should lower prices so more young people can partake.  

46, here, I know... I'm a young noob, but most retail audio establishments sucked anyway circa >2000. Glad they are being replaced by a lower priced direct sales models with more integration of features in one single box.  

I'm amazed by the LS50 Wireless II w/ a KC62 Subwoofer.  I bought it from Kef directly, why? I called Magnolia, and they were out of stock and as unhelpful as to be expected. 

I ordered some Legacy Whispers based on my wanting them after hearing them from a audio show a decade ago.  They now come with the Wavelet Preamp, DAC, Digital crossover, and DSP correction as well as integrated 500wx4 amplifiers to drive the 15" woofers.

"Goodbye to the dodo bird, there's a reason you're extinct" 

Sincerely,

A Former & Cyncical Audio Consultant 😁 

I am 72 and bought my first separates system in 1969.  It consisted of a Sansui amp, Sansui tuner, (matched 555s), Dual 1019 turntable and Sansui Sp-100 speakers.  I added an AKAI R2R.  The cost was about $800 for all of it.

I am not sure my current system pleases me any more as I went from a cheap all in one ( what I call a grind o magic ) to what was a decent system.

If I was 21 again, I suspect I would be streaming music via a Mac Mini and using a class D amp and XYZ speakers and be just as happy as I was then.   O I g up the ladder today require funds beyond most people in their early 20s.

I know loads of young people into audio. Loads.

I have 4 kids.  All of them love music ... multiple genres not just rap or pop.Only one (age 16) is an audiophile.  One is a musician (age 19) lots of her work is on Spotify.  Music to her is about creating it and listening for learning about lyrics etc so she can make more and better music.  She is happy with her JBL Bluetooth speaker and iPhone. The other two (21 and 23) find it incomprehensible that you would sit still and listen to music.  With them music follows them into the gym, in the car, parties etc.  I do find it interesting that many in Hollywood have serious audiophile systems ... most are at best middle aged.  Maybe the days of expensive high end electronics will come to a close soon.  The good news is that the world of music is alive and well

I’m pretty young (well relative to the prevailing crowd here, not to the pickup basketball games I try in vain to keep up with....sigh)) but for the older gents here, at the Hi-Fi height, let’s say 1970’s, what percentage of middle class households had what we would consider a hi-end system?

10%? 20%? More?

By hi-end system I guess I mean something you’d get from a Hi-Fi store, not just a Best Buy receiver

This has been said for decades. In the 1970s, the adage was "Hi-End Audio is not developed yet. It will not survive".

In the 80s, it was "Hi-End is too trendy--like disco was".

Today, Hi-End is "social injustice and supremacist because it mandates a standard of excellence".

There will always be reasons to trample on it. And there will always be reasons to seek it out and procure it. In short, the market will always be there. It is simply a matter tapping into it.

mapman: "I think the high end should lower prices so more young people can partake."

One phrase: Market Economics.

Hi-End ANYTHING would not exist without the Free Market Enterprise Profit Motive. No one does anything because they have compassion and love for others. No one.

Human nature is SELF-CENTRIC. This is why we need a government comprised of checks and balances to keep Totalitarians in check. And it is also why we need COMPETITION to keep Economic Totalitarians in place (i.e., Google, Microsoft, Twitter, Big Pharma, Big Oil, etc ...).

Eliminate the SELF-GAIN, eliminate the market. You can not have both.

And quite frankly, it takes untold millions to run a company like Pass Labs or D'Agostino or any of the others. They are not just covering their immediate costs. They are also coving past investment, future R&D, and yes--PROFIT. THEY get to eat and pay for their kids' college tuitions, just like you do.

We have scores and scores of options in audio below the $1,000 mark. Call THAT "The Poor Man's Hi-End", if you will. And quite frankly the Yamahas and Denons, et al ... that appear in these price ranges offer sound and features that we could only dream of, in SOME cases at least, a few decades ago. In short, our "low-fi" market in some ways rivals what was "hi-fi" decades ago.

Kinda relative.

Remember when air conditioning was exclusive to Cadillacs? I do. Now you can not buy a car--even those tin-can toasters on wheels--without A/C. (Wish car companies would figure that out about cup holders, too).

We have what we call "hi-end" because of PROFIT MOTIVE. We have advanced medicines, technology, surgical procedures for one reason alone: PROFIT MOTIVE.

It may not sound warm and fuzzy, but that's the reality. You would never get out of bed each day and schlep off the work if you did not receive your piece of cheese--a paycheck. Why expect anything else from everyone else?

@kren0006.  “... but for the older gents here, at the Hi-Fi height, let’s say 1970’s, what percentage of middle class households had what we would consider a hi-end system?

10%? 20%? More?...”

Excellent  question. In the 1970’s. Much less than  1%

This has never been a popular pursuit. You would also need to take into account the population increase of at least 50% so as a percentage the people doing this may not have decreased as much as it would have. 

I think some of it boils down to time and interest.  There too many other diversions.  It does take some nurturing to appreciate music on a deeper level than on a phone and earbuds.  If I was starting out I would stream (CD quality or above) with high quality headphones.   

@athrillofhope

You are very correct. No question.. but take a deep breath... relax... enjoy the moment. Put on some Kitaro.

I’m 35 and it’s an expensive hobby. Probably out of reach for most people. I’ve spent maybe 20k in the last year on mostly second hand gear (Marantz PM-10/SA-10, Ruby-KI/SA-KI and other things). I enjoy music but I wouldn’t spend thousands on cables or buy into a lot of bs snake oil being thrown around here as fact.

No one needs to spend hundreds or thousands on a usb or network cable or speaker cable for that matter. In my opinion, you are an idiot if you believe that wrapping gold or some other shiny material makes the cable sound better but then again a sucker is born every minute. Will there be a difference? maybe, but so subtle that a cable from monoprice would get you 90% there at 1000% less the cost.

It comes down to the digital divide. Those who grew up in the internet age and those who came before. Older people who don’t understand technology are more susceptible to scams like IRS phone calls coming from India saying you owe the government money. Not surprising that a lot of these snake oil scams continue to exist in the audio world. I don’t mean to demean or attack people because of their age as young people make some pretty stupid decisions as well (pulling down statues, calling everyone who disagrees with you a racist/etc, applying today’s standards on the past).
Most people my age or younger are looking for a house or looking to buy a Tesla. If it doesn’t haven’t an app, most people aren’t interested. In a sense, we’ve forgotten how to do things the manual way because things are just too easy now. What’s 10% of $200? That question might give many people in the younger age bracket pause now so they reflexively reach for their phone to do the math.

Young people have all the convenience older people never dreamed of having (get food delivered via DoorDash. Hitch a ride through Uber, listen to music via Spotify/YouTube/Apple Music/etc, be connected anywhere). HiFi is dying because it’s out of range for most people price wise and that void of listening to music in your listening room has been replaced by huge ass TVs that can give you content anytime. It’s not surprising Klipsch is outselling everything now in the US because that’s where the market is moving. Sound bars, home theater, kick ass explosions. I’m a fan of Klipsch as (mainly their heritage line) but very few people my age or lower are snobs about audio because cheap oled and lcd TVs have taken over. No one cares about your Wilson audio or B&W speakers. People care about how big of a tv you can shove into a living room.

@syndication.
If you have $20K invested in used equipment at age 35 you have spent more than I had at your age ($ adjusted). High end audio has always been the pursuit of a few people of the best possible musical reproduction and experience. If you are one of those... then along the way you will discover the overall sound is strongly influenced by all the components, and that interconnects and cables are a part of the system. If not, you will enjoy what you have, which is likely better than 99% of the folks out there. Hope you are enjoying it.

@ghdprentice Those most I would spend on interconnects would be in the 30-60 range per cable and I would tend to lean toward Blue Jeans Cable because it’s supporting someone making the cables in the United States. Anything above that is excess and un-necessary. I’m sure more expensive cables might be better but there’s that law of depreciating returns along with your hearing loss as you age. Everyone rationalizes after they make an expensive purchase that it sounds better but sometimes this is a placebo. Cables are that placebo. You might have an argument that analog signals degrade and are subject to interference and attenuation, but let’s not say that optical/toslink, RJ-45, and usb are the same beast because they’re not. The signals are digital and there’s a lot of snake oil about selling expensive cables from vendors saying they make digital audio sound better. Bullshit. Digital is digital, data is only flowing on 2 wires in the usb 2.0 spec and either it works or it doesn’t. (Usb does retransmit if it doesn’t get an ACK packet) Same with RJ-45, either it works or it doesn’t. Most home networks use TCP/IP and the packet retransmits if it doesn’t get there. That’s in the TCP spec. No expensive cable is going to change that when a cheaper shielded cat 5/6 cable will work just fine. If you have packet loss, the wireless signal sucks or if you have other issues with your network. (Bad cable/bad route).

“Much less than  1%”

Wow. To read some of the accounts from the period you’d think everyone and their brother had extensive systems. 

Most people are content listening to music on the AirPods or beats via their phone. Probably doesn’t help Hi-Fi is full of eccentric weirdos who believe a power conditioner makes their computer crash less or run faster or that buying some expensive black goo to spread on your interconnects makes the sound come alive.

It has always been a very esoteric pursuit. It takes unique interests in music, a technical bent, with an appreciation of achieving the pinnacle of what is possible. Typically someone that likes to spend time alone.
.

In the 60’s and 70’s many college students were exposed to stereos systems and pot together. Everyone liked listening to the best systems their friends had (none remotely high-end)... and an extremely small minority went on to put together a true high end system... I don’t know anyone that did, other than me. of the thousands of people I have known in business and outside of work I ran into one or two. I met many people claiming to be an audiophile only to proudly state they owned Bose... the marketing scheme worked for decades convincing people they were buying a high end system, to the horror of those of us that actually knew what good equipment could do. We have always been a very small minority... but dedicated over our lifetimes.

The assessment of the popularity has always been in aggregate. Number of attendees to shows, subscriptions, and sales of companies... and bankruptcies.

There happy with ear buds.

@ebm They're happy not sitting in one position in one room.

teo_audio1,850 posts05-12-2021 9:06amblame it on digital. I do.

Digital is awesome. Blame it on Apple.

Like many have said, digital has had a major impact on Hi-Fi. Here's a real world example - My son is 31 years old. He seemingly had no interest in listening to his dad's "dinosaur" equipment. Instead he would stream music on his phone, even listening via the tinny built-in speaker. It's convenient, he can listen to anything he wants, and he can do it anywhere. 

The other day, I asked him to put on some of my Sennheiser headphones, plugged in a Schiit DAC to his phone, and he listened to some of his music. His response after about 30 minutes was "holy crap dad, I had no idea". He is musically inclined and started gushing over the "layers, tight bass, nuances, blah, blah...".

Over the next couple of days, he went into my listening room (fancy name for my finished basement) and listened to various combinations of my equipment with both vinyl and CD music. Now he's looking at buying some gear and vinyl. 

So it apparently has a much to do with education and listening than lack of appreciation. Back in the 70s, you had to listen to other music sources, today convenience and technology have removed the motivation to do so. I don't think Hi-Fi is dead by any stretch and a little time listening usually convinces even the most Twitter-oriented young person.

Back in the day, we had three choices of home entertainment - three TV channels, board games or audio. Today audio has to compete with way more sources of entertainment.

Americans spend $50 billion on video games per year. Some of that used to go to audio.

Youngsters do not dream of owning good sound.  Their video games do not require it.  Recently, a kid I know came by my house for something, and asked about old my stereo, B&W 893"s powered by Audire electronics (Phono Head amp, two Diffet 3 preamps, and three Audire Forte amps, the third for the subs.  After plying around for something he liked to hear, which turned out to be Pink Floyd, he looked amazed, and said, "Wow!  That is great.  I can't wait to get home to see how good it must sound on my iPhone."

The price of high end audio has passed beyond means of this boomer.   7500 dollars for a Dac? 1000 for the streamer  to boot.  I am a physician and when I started most docs had a high end system.  When I tried to sell my speakers only one physican had one.  The dealer said most of his customers now are ceo cfo lawyers and venture capitalists who just pick out what they want and pay for it

This new generation care more about how loud their system sounds, than how clean and natural it may sound.  I been trying to teach some of the young people about how good hi end audio equipment sounds, but when they see the prices of most of the hi end audio equipment, they get scared and will go and buy a Bluetooth speaker or headphone instead! Hi end audio gear prices are getting out of hand and manufacturers are not helping either. They build 20 different models, instead of just a couple of good components at a reasonable price, that instead of helping the hobby is killing it!  

@lckluiano “This new generation care more about how loud their system sounds, than how clean and natural it may sound. ”

.

Funny you say that. That was the primary interest initially when I got into high end audio in the 70’s. I forgot.  But it morphed over time to be more articulate, better tonal balance, better imagining, more realistic rendering of the venue, better midrange, and finally much better rhythm and pace. Ok, this really made me realize that each upgrade would add something I would not expect as well as what I did expect. I think this is an important part of the reward cycle for those who pursue it over a lifetime. The continuous surprise and rewards from initially simplistic expectation. Adding music discovery it is a constant discovery pursuit.

Same happens with a lot of things. Young people start out drinking to get drunk. Eventually some of them learn to appreciate and savor the finer qualities of spirits, wine, and beer. Fifty years ago we had a whole nation of lager quaffers, if you can glorify Bud with "lager". Today quality craft ales line the shelves across the land.  

When I was young and poor I gravitated to some of the finer cheap wines like Gallo Hearty Burgundy. Instead of looking down on the younger generations and lamenting the rising cost of everything we would be better off encouraging them to find audio quality wherever they can.  

Headphones ..... that's where the younger folks go crazy on gear...