When someone tells you it's a $40,000 amp, does it sound better?

@roxy54 

+1

@jumia 

Not to be unkind, but I think that the factors that make such an amplifier cost what it does have been explained in detail multiple times within this thread. If you still don't understand, I doubt that you ever will.

I doubt many $40,000 amplifiers are sold.  Ie. $80,000 for a pair.

I'm wondering what parts or part makes this amplifier really nice.  Yes it has a very expensive parts I hope but are we talking about merely craftsmanship and R&D that makes it what it is? That's very thin.  It's an amplifier.

Preamplifiers at least have volume controls and source selectors and a remote control which makes it a little bit complicated.  

$40k is a dollar amount, not a sonic experience. There's so much placebo products out in the industry just because someone can afford it. I've seen a $30k power cable.

I understand the difference between good, great and spectacular. I understand why a $25k pair of speakers can be objectively better than a $10k pair of speakers. I can't wrap my head around a $30k power cable.

 I can't afford a $40K amplifier and I'm not worried about whatever I might be missing there. But I don't doubt I might be missing something very good, and it may not be just about the sound quality taken in isolation. I have a fairly expensive watch that was given to me by my father. It's something I never would have bought. He gave it to me telling me I could sell it to get some money. I could have, but I kept it, and it's not just because it's a keepsake. I really enjoy this watch and understand its high price now. It doesn't keep spectacularly accurate time, and doesn't have advanced features - just time and date. It is self winding and exceedingly well built with plain stainless steel. The quality of construction becomes evident with use and builds a lot of confidence in me about the staying power of this device. I have something I can reasonably count on to do the simple act of telling me the time, probably for the rest of my life even if I live to 100. The crystal won't scratch, the casing and band won't rust, fatigue, rot, or leak. I've already put it through the ringer working as a mechanic. I probably shouldn't have used it while wrenching but the watch proved its worth. I don't have to worry about software updates or the battery becoming unable to hold a charge. It's a beautiful thing! I don't see any evidence that something truly equivalent is available for a lot cheaper.

@ryder 

5. Advertising and promotion

Sound quality is just a byproduct. The money that you are paying goes to

1. Raw material which contributes to build quality and fit and finish

2. Parts and components

3. Research and development

4. Wages for everyone

@mrdecibel 

We might be saying the same thing.

In a way, all that I'm saying is that my listening habits have evolved over 54 years, I'm an old fart now and I'm set in my ways. Full stop.

@ps 

I can't see any relation between those lyrics and what you were trying to say.

I find it humorous that some a’philes seem to think that the pursuit of reproduced musical sound is some kind of contest. As in big swingin’ D***S. "Mine is bigger/better than yours."

We’re approaching the winter holidays, and I thought of a certain tune. Partial lyrics:

"do you hear what I hear?
A song, a song, high above the trees
With a voice as big as the sea
With a voice as big as the sea"

@unreceivedogma , I am not sure if you understand where I am coming from. On a post of mine on another thread, it was brought to my attention by another poster ( a great individual, imo ), stating that he read a statement from a poster on WBF ( a site I enjoy )....in which he listens the way I do. And, the statement was : I want to hear " WHAT the musicians are doing on the stage ". This, to me, is the essence of  listening to music. Because we are talking amplifiers on this thread, here is a brief story I spoke about on another thread. In early 2017 ( for shits and giggles ) I purchased a Nuforce STA200 amp, highly rated by a reviewer from The Absolute Sound Magazine. It was $500 to purchase this amp, so why not. Based on what I listen for, it bettered so many other amps in my collection, so I sold many from my stash locally from my collection. All quite expensive in relation to this little gem. In fact, it got someone posting HERE, quite upset, as he owned one of these amps I sold. This person actually thought that my amp ( the same one he owned, and cherished ) was old, out of spec, and needed work. Well, I was happy to sell this perfectly mint example, and received lots of money for it ( there was actually a bidding war on it ). Needless to say, this poster has since not liked me, as I suppose this person took offense to it. It is fine, because my music listening, is for me, and me alone. I know I listen differently than many others, and my ears / brain works a particular way, as everyone else's. I was 15 when I knew the " sound " I was looking for, and what characteristics are important to me. Enough of my blabbing......Whatever makes one happy. My best to all. Always, MrD. 

@roxy54 

Which is why, 97 times out of 100, I prefer to sit at home (saving me travel time), in a room that is in part specifically designed for listening, in front of an audio system that evolved over the  54 years I have spent fiddling with it, costing me about $22,000 in improvements over those 54 years, a system that an audio engineer and blues musician just recently claimed was the best he had ever heard, excepting one that he worked on that cost it’s owner $165,000, and if he had to choose between the two, he would choose mine. 

mahlman, that is so hilarious but true😄

@ps  Hmm and the corollary to that speaker price might then be might be all the very expensive weddings with those in "love" with each other seeming to fail more and more as the $$$ go up? :D

@mahlman 

I like to put the question of "what is art?" into the same folder as "what is love?"

I've listened to very expensive speakers driven by equally expensive power amps at audio shows and they sounded horrid, but f course the exhibitors claimed they sounded wonderful..  I tend to rely on my ears, not on what price is charged for the gear.

You know, that is interesting. I don’t think I have ever read marketing information until after I have made the purchase. I have never considered it a useful source of information. 
 

I read professional reviews or audition equipment. But would never look at the market stuff.

@unreceivedogma 

That's a good observation.

@mrdecibel
Being at a live show also has compromises: the person sitting in front of you, the one sitting to one side of you, the one sitting in back of you, the quality of the seating, how far back, to one side, or close you are sitting, the depth of the stage, and most importantly, the quality of the acoustics of the music hall, which are almost always compromised, depending on where you are sitting. I could go on.

The problem with the high priced audio gear is that the marketing information that accompanies this gear is horrifying.  It's just a lot of crap meant to be read by people who don't know what they're doing.  The dealers don't really understand what they're selling and they don't have any of these higher end products in stock so you're forced to buy it without hearing it.  The dealers are forced to buy the product before they can sell it to you.  And even if you did hear it, it's not gonna be the same at your home.

It's the worst possible selling situation in the world.  

This forum is really becoming as silly as ASR. Yes, a lot of audio equipment is overpriced. Yes, some cheaper equipment sounds great. Yes, some dear equipment sounds poor. Yes, some high priced amplifiers are worth it and you can really hear the difference. Listen with your ears and not your eyes.

@secretguy 

"I've never known anyone silly enough to spend 40k."

It is not about silly it is a different value system then most of us have to worry about. Like some big fancy houses I have been to in Nashville where they have the four walls but are now to broke to fill the inside with "fine" furniture. But the house says I made it.

Why did Andy Warhols ridiculous famous, I have no idea why either, Cambell's Soup can painting go for 11.8 million? Because someone wanted a trophy not a work of genuine art..

  As is often mentioned it is their money to do with as they see fit and they pay the bills for the makers of such "fine" audio gear. I don't object to how they spend it I object to how they think I should revere their bad choices as being great sound.

I was at an audio show recently and they didn't seem to have radically expensive amps. But they did have speakers that were 120k and 350k. I heard absolutely nothing that would make me even consider either one, even if I had the money to burn.

Some people would say the same thing about the difference between a $5,000 and a $500 amp, or some might say a $40,000 amp doesn't compare to a $150,000 amp. 

it all depends who you ask?  to a wealthy person, $40k will not mean much to someone.  to a middle class indvidual, he may be able to afford it, but wil rationalize and think what the $40k can do for himself and his family.  

now for the questions of listeing/diference between $10k vs. $40k amp.

I was lucky enough to hear a Gryphon Antileon Evo, excellent sounding like many other amps I've listen to.  Would I purchae the $40k Gryphon?  I would not, the small differenes between them isn't as noticeable as one would think.  But I can't be the judge of it as what I hear, may not be what someone else likes.

the life of a need and a want.  wealthy people could not be satisfied with $10k amp just knowing it doesn't cost as much.  

also like others have said, is the amp $40k build?  how much of a percentage is taken out for marketing?  distriubtion?  sales?  

enjoy music friends.

@rbach , actually, you are clueless as to anything I spoke about. So, enjoy ! Always, MrD.

"Pop the lid?"

As a mere mortal, somehow $40,000 dollars of "truth inside" does not compute.

I have no way of qualifying nor quantifying this assertion.  I'm a mere mortal with adequate but  not "deep" pockets.

However, I do have a sense of how much food $40,000 will buy. 

But this is an audio forum and not culinary.

Market value is what the market is willing to pay. Intrinsic value? Well, that's a whole other rabbit hole.

Onward, Lads and Lassies.

+1 bigkidz, truth is inside👍

Just pop the lid off and take a look inside.  Layout, parts quality, etc.  and then you should know if it was worth $40K.  Remember the dealer also gets a percentage of the $40K so in reality, it is not a $40K product,

Happy Listening.

"Sorry for my rant, but I found a new Sativa, and my mind is exploding with thoughts and ideas.....lol"

Now I get it.

The spending of big bucks is fine for those that can afford it. At one time, I sure did. But the unfortunate reality is, people are listening to equipment that can never achieve " live, unamplified " sound, of the musicians playing. And if you think your system does, you have little experience with live, unamplified music. However, giving more credit to many listeners, whatever you spend, it will be a compromise in so many ways. THE RECORDINGS are compromised. The most popular thread here had, for at least a week, a discussion on ( 1 ) what is the proper tone of the guitar, ( 2 ) where is the musician located on the stage and ( 3 ) how much ambience is heard within the recorded space. I am talking about Keith Don’t Go, by Nils Lofgren, from Acoustic Live. A popular demo track at shows when it was released, and long after. Was the guitar he used the popular and regularly played Takamine Legacy 508 ? Will your system tell you ? Would you actually know if it was, just by listening ? I don’t pay attention as much to that stuff on recordings, because of the mic’s, cables, recorders, eq and compression ( just to name a few ) and ALL of the associated equipment used, to make it to the production. However, there are some attributes of the music that I care about more, and two are dynamics and transients, which consist of quiet to loud, forceful, rhythmic, control, speed, articulation ( and yes, PRaT ) thunderous, delicate, believable attack and decay, etc. These suffer from the " recording " as well. But these are very important sound characteristics I yearn for, from all recordings ( I come from a " music " background ). Given what I have $ wise into my system, the systems delivers it. Live unamplified music, from a violin, to a huge drum set, exhibits these....as a given. So many Hi End systems I have heard, fall short of these characteristics. Yes, they are spatial. Yes they are holographic. Yes, they can place you in the audience. Oh, my system does that too !. But the meat on the bones, is not just added punch, or more bass. One of my many " challenge recordings " for systems, is Romantic Warrior, by RTF. Not a Sheffield Lab, RR, or similar,etc. ) 4 fabulous musicians, playing individually......and together.....The key word is " PLAYING ". This is what I listen to. I hope I have not offended anyone here, as it was not my intent. For many of you, you have your own sound characteristics you are looking for. Listening to recorded music is always a compromise, no matter the system. I know my system has limitations. The recording processes are the limiting factor. Sorry for my rant, but I found a new Sativa, and my mind is exploding with thoughts and ideas.....lol.....My best to everyone......Always, MrD.

@jl35 I say yes. A great example was the TAD ME-1 speaker. It was $15K with stands, which was very high for a monitor. They dropped the price by $5K (I think) to be more competitive with gear like KEF Reference 1. That last about a month or 2 and they raised the price again to $15K. That told me that they could make a profit at $10K but wanted the cache of $15K exclusivity. 

With a warm amp that is a great monitor, but I lost interest after that price gymnastics.

so if they made the new list price on our amps $40,000 but they were always on sale for much less, then we would like them more ??

Keep in mind allow for a $10k budget for the power cord!😅

Every time I listen to my Luxman Class A integrated I tell myself it's a $40,000 amp and by gawd, it does indeed sound even better.

Agreed you should let your ears make the decisions.  I also believe most people live within their means.  No one can tell you what sounds better or what you should spend.  Not everyone can spend 250k or a million bucks on a sports car but I don't criticize those who do.

@jumia I put some money into interconnects for my Benchmark system. The sources to the preamp use Audience Au24 SE XLR and RCA. The speaker cable is Audience FrontRow. The cable between the Benchmark LA4 preamp and Benchmark AHB2 monos is low cost Benchmark XLR (there is a reason I did not spend more here).

I think the cables are dialed in perfectly on this system. I also have a power management system that I think is very good, a Torus RM15. Essentially what Bryston uses internally in their amps for instantaneous power deliver.

I have tested all of these pieces both with 2-channel and my RAAL SR1a headphones (which are as revealing as it gets). There is nothing I am unhappy with in this system.

On the new system I am building for a much bigger room (volume) I want to get exactly the sound I have before with an amp I sold last week. I just want way more power from the new amp than I had before. There are also some other improvements on the new amp that I have not heard yet that I think will make me buy the amp. I am buying a $2K or $3K preamp instead of the $16K preamp my dealer is suggesting. I rather put more money into the amp.

I had a really nice car for 20 years. A stick shift BMW M3 E46 that I put 200K miles on. I sold that recently and now have a RAD Wagon cargo bicycle which I did 4K miles locally over the past 13 months. A car no longer has any attraction for me. Now the audio system I am building is much more interesting.

Yyzsantabarbara,

Have you considered putting more money toward interconnects and speaker cables and a good power management system versus taking a chance on a $40,000 amp that you will only really be hearing after it's been broken in.

Or maybe split the difference and use the remaining $20,000 toward interconnects on speaker cables and a good power management system.

Or maybe a really nice car that's $40,000 higher then what you were planning to spend assuming you need a new car. I still find it annoying when you spend a lot more money on a car you have to spend a lot more money on freaking insurance because idiots still steal cars

Only your ears will be able answer that question. Stop listening to others and start listening to yourself. Should a 40k amp sound better than a 20k one: it should, but it’s you that must make that determination not the supposedly know it alls that troll these forums daily with their opinions based on their beliefs!

I am considering a $35K amp for my Livingroom system. The cost of that amp is way higher than I normally spend but I have reasons that made me chose that over a $6750 used amp in the same lineup. I also considered the phenomenal CODA #16 at $13K, but I want more power.

My to the grave amp in my office cost $3K each (monos)

@jumia 

A good DSP arrangement solves a lot of room problems and equipment problems and is underrated and not fully appreciated.  Probably because the interfaces and the product are so difficult to work with. It's a real pain in the ass to deal with DSP the way it's set up and really shouldn't be.  Mcintosh has a room treatment box that provides no graph before after and no way to make changes and requires microphone for sampling just like everybody else.

My safety net for audio room issues is AccurateSound.ca. The guy running that service has a remote DSP creation service that works well (and easy for the client). I used them for a big speaker in a small room and the results were excellent. I no longer use that DSP (Convolution filter) because I have a small speaker in this room, and it is a seamless fit.

It may sound very nice and very good but I wanna see something and I wanna be able to change something.

I have not tried this new software that AccurateSound has created but they have something to allow you to try different Convolution filters quickly to see how it sounds.

If you are a ROON or JRiver user and are mainly focused on digital streaming audio, then AccurateSound is gold. This is a computer software-based approach to room correction so it will work with all gear. The software they use is very expensive audio software and is very complicated.  I also consider this solution miles more powerful than any DSP stuffed into audio gear (no matter the price of the gear).

Possibly my ears can't discern the difference between 20 and 40 thousand. I will be better off with 20 thousand. My only question is how do you listen to all these different sound systems in your room. Tested with the same songs and the same volume, at the same time of day with no invading sounds, at the same temperature and the same amount of drugs in your system. 

I rant!

A great amp will shine even with modest speakers.  A friend told me about the day he was working at an audio shop where they used a really good amp with a range of lower priced speakers, including a pair of old and battered Polk speakers, and every speaker sounded amazingly good.  That was when he became convinced about how extremely important amps are to the sound.

Now you own it, and while listening to it you will always be saying to yourself that thing cost $40,000 and somehow you’ll enjoy it more.

You will enjoy it more because it would be better.

Is it going to be 40x better than a 1k preamp, most likely not, but it will perform way better in areas that a lesser preamp cannot even touch.

The question is would you buy it, if funds allowed, to enjoy it or to show off. I want to believe that many here would buy it for enjoyment.

I cannot understand, while in this passion, some people reject the idea of expensive gear, quite a few of those reflect somehow their value.

Personally i would go for it, i have one in mind, and show a fake invoice to my wife.

AMPLIFIERS have to be considered in light of the speakers you pair them with. If the speakers fail to reveal more subtle details on the recording, then the amps do not have to be "quiet enough" to produce that level of detail. In that case you're better off buying a less expensive New amp, or go with an older (but more prestigious) brand that 20 years ago "used to be" a top performer. If you are planning to get much better speakers as soon as you save up the money, and you can get a great amplifier on sale or a demo now, you might consider buying it. The best route is almost always to stop eating out and use your bicycle instead of your car to get around, and get the speakers you feel you will be hanging onto for a long time FIRST. Then buy a NAD, HEGEL (or similar darn good amp (or even a well made integrated) and enjoy your music. And IMO avoid components made abroad which are exotic and exclusive (some reviewers consider them to be "the best") but are simply more expensive for the same performance you can get here. High-End  Audio is about what YOU think sounds really good, but there's always the pressure to get something "the experts" proclaim to be 10th row at Carnegie Hall. Especially when it comes to wire, you know your cables are well made, but are they limiting what gets to your speakers? How much more money should you spend on them?I think of all the years I didn't even think about wire as I enjoyed every minute listening to the same music I still listen to now....

Hello...My Experience.

Just because a piece of gear has a high price doesn't in itself mean that it will sound good. Also, what sounds good to some might not be your cup of tea. 

Usually when a system has a 40K amp it will usually be paired with equally expensive components, speakers ETC.   

Now the caveat.  I have heard some killer systems in killer rooms - some stupidly expensive and others more reasonably priced.  Achieving good sound is a matter of good system synergy...

That being said,  when you hear a properly set up system at a higher price point the experience can be completely humbling.       

@invalid,

“So it's okay to spend just under $20,000 for amplifiers, but $40,000 that's too much, some people think $2,000 is too much.”

No it’s none of my business what someone pays for an amp. Yes the majority of people on earth would think a 2k amp is ridiculous. I don’t think that. I think amps that cost what a car does is ridiculous but could give 2 s..ts who buy them. I could buy a 40k amp if I chose to but I do not. There are “magical” amps that cost 200k. If someone wants to buy them have at it. 
 

A guy like ghdprentice said in another thread a 22 thousand dollar streamer was a screaming deal! That’s just funny as hell to me. Buy what you want. 

“It tells me their have more money than brains.”

Yeah… no. All the audiophiles with large budgets I have known have earned their money. They used their brains and hard work to get their money and use their brains and hard work to acquire audiophile equipment to make absolutely sure they get value what they pay for.

OP, fortunately my gear is in my man cave floor… I guess we are also hermits. I think I have had five or six people down here in twenty years. My system is for me only. 

I hate displaying gear. Whenever someone comes over it's a distraction. I don't mind displaying the speakers but all the other complexity of gear it's just horrifying to deal with when someone starts asking questions.

I'm not going to get into an audio discussion versus just sitting back Play some music in the background that sounds really really nice well doing something other then drooling over how good something soun… having a party with all the gear hanging out is awful.

So I've got a cabinet and while some stuff is exposed most is not directly viewable/camouflaged enough so I don't get confronted with all kinds of questions.

I wish I had a pantry room to put it all in but when it's just me I like to have it out so I don't go nuts every time I want to change a cable or access something. No