When someone tells you it's a $40,000 amp, does it sound better?

@yyzsantabarbara   Always had respect for Krell electronics. Sure Krell have had some misses but when getting it right they hit a grand slam! I mentioned the Burmester 216 due to hearing it drive a Sonus Faber Lilium with such ease and graceful authority. At 75/w/ch/8ohms (Class A) might not appear a great value at $35k to some but it MIGHT be the best sounding amplifier I have heard.

@dayglow I owned the KRELL K-300i integrated amp and also the KRELL Dou 175XD amp and loved them both. The 175XD is better and I sold both.

There is a new KRELL amp that is supposed to be released in Nov 2022 called the KSA i400. I am thinking that amp will work great for my future Livingroom system. Only issue is the price (which I figured a way to solve) and the 26-inch depth of the amp. That is a bit on the large size. Got to see if I can sneak it by the wife without her noticing :)

Option 2 is the CODA #16 which is not as big.

@yyzsantabarbara  +1  Burmester 216?

You do not have to be wealthy to buy a $40K amp. I just started a second full time job to maybe buy a $35K amp in 2023. Priorities.

For some audiophiles the Placebo effect cannot be controlled and will make an amp sound better if it is expected to sound better. Cable manufactures are very dependent upon the Placebo effect due to besides too high capacitance for some cartridges, their cables do not sound much different than other cables (spaghetti size cheap cables are excluded).

I would think it depends on a designer's ability to resource and buy parts for less to build an amp at a reasonable price. For example some well established companies like Audio Research and Conrad Johnson buy parts in bulk and pass on the savings to their customers. So this could be true that just cause an amp cost more doesn't mean it sounds better. No savy businessman would spend forty thousand dollars on something that loses a lot of its value once purchased, only a rich audiophile would do so

I've considered that at some point I would upgrade from my $3,500 ATC P1 Pro amp to a $6,500 Parasound JC-5 amp. To me both of these are in the sweet spot of their price range. I can't imagine spending more in my 9 ft by 12 ft listening room. I imagine the ultra high dollar systems are how extremely wealthy people try to impress (and poke fun at) other extremely wealthy people. Not that I wouldn't like to have a system like that myself. I'm imagining a similar scenario where Oprah (or some other billionaire) calls her friends from her yacht and ask them if they're enjoying their weekend on their 80 ft "dinghy" and then scoffs "What yours didn't even come with a helicopter?"

With great respect, since I'm well-aware of your expertise- is it possible to assign a monetary value to those attributes? 

Yes- and depends very much on who is doing the assigning 😉

"

Better:

Smoother, more detailed, greater center image palpability. Wider bandwidth, particularly in the bass. Greater speed and so on."

@ atmasphere: With great respect, since I'm well-aware of your expertise- is it possible to assign a monetary value to those attributes?  I think my question gets to the essence of OP's post.  Of course, I could be wrong.   It wouldn't be the first time.

Better:

Smoother, more detailed, greater center image palpability. Wider bandwidth, particularly in the bass. Greater speed and so on.

Once we’ve agreed on a suitable, appropriate, and applicable definition of "better" in the context of reproduced music, only then can the dialog proceed. My first questions, and of course they are simply mine, is: "’better than what?". How and why? That question is only answerable when a detailed study/revelation of specific systems, the owner’s hearing acuity, and her/his musical/audio tastes are factored in. And even then..... It’s tough nut.

So, I posit that OP has asked a question which is both rhetorical and unanswerable in any meaningful way.

Ultimately: word games, at best.

FYI/ and full disclosure : as i type this, I’m binging Ahmad Jamal with a modest CJ control tube amp and vintage Franco ( may he RIP,) Serblin speakers. My investment is no where close to $40K for everything.

But is sure sounds durn bueno. And I humbly submit that bueno is ultimately preferable to better.

The best sounding gear are that which you can afford. I’ll leave discussion of the rest to the masochists. 😬😝

Something to keep in mind is that a $40,000 amp is likely not going to be playing $200 speakers; its likely to be playing on speakers that have a similar price tag. Some speakers with that sort of price really are wider bandwidth and lower distortion. So it may well be that the $40,000 amp sounds better on that account alone...

Ok so $40k sounds better in what system. Everything in the system comes into play. Setup, synergy between components, and room all are factors here. You can’t just pick an amp and drop it in. Most of the time within the same company the more expensive will do something the cheaper one won’t. However it may not be better depending on the application.  ie: if the more expensive amp is more expensive because it offers more power and you have very efficient horn speakers then the less expensive low power amp may produce a better sound. So, No! all more expensive amps are necessarily better sounding. Depends on application,  too many variables for a single answer. You have to get specific in order to get more solid opinions. 

Yeah that probably relates to higher cost class D amps. But mostly d amps are bargain basement variety and sound pretty bad.

@jumia  That is true of some but not all. I have two customers that were quite surprised by the Nobsound class D amps which are less than $300.00! I’ve not heard one myself. As best I can make out some of these less expensive amps are bass response limited to avoid all their power being gobbled up but otherwise sound pretty decent.

Yeah that probably relates to higher cost class D amps.  But mostly d amps are bargain basement variety and sound pretty bad.  Because home theater is the niche market for d stuff in a world where sound Quality don't matter too much.

Isn't the harsh reality of class D is that it's to clinical and precise, and harsh. With class AB you get distortion and isn't that what harmonics is all about when you listen to music. It's all about the design and the colorations that are done by the amp designer. Most class D stuff is all about fitting lots of power in a small package.

And class D it's kind of cheap stuff so good luck making class d a preferable way to go

@jumia In a word, no.

I've heard class D amps that are smoother than any class A/AB amplifier. Its easier to design a class D amp that exhibits lower ordered harmonics rather than the higher ordered harmonics which cause harshness and brightness.

This is because with class D its possible to run a lot more feedback than you can with conventional designs! Its a nice side benefit of course that they are less expensive and less heat. There's a problem with feedback in conventional designs; not enough of it results in the amplifier's presentation being harsher and brighter due to unmasked higher ordered harmonics generated by the feedback itself. But if you can run enough feedback, it can clean up the mess it otherwise causes.

So at least with the class D amps with which I"m most familiar, they sound as smooth and sweet in the mids and highs like the best tube amps, but with more detail (easier to hear into the rear of the soundstage) than conventional amps.

I've always enjoyed your posts mrdebacle.  Very much looking forward to you not responding to anyone beyond this point.  Enjoying! 

I am a fan of the Audionics CC2…. FAN

I prefer the term " fan boys ", vs cult members, and you all know who you are. Just admit to it, and move on. I will not respond to anyone beyond this point. Enjoy ! Always, and my best to all. MrD.

Yes ps,  please enlighten us with your high brow humor.  You may have to dumb it down for some of us, but I will certainly try my hardest to understand it.....don't want it to escape me.

ah @ps please enlighten w us with your erudite understanding and humor that few if any can understand. I am clearly lost in the humor you refer to.

Your recent post: “Cults and their members are where one finds them. This is simply a general observation based on keen observation of human behavior. All in a historical context of course. :)”. I have reread the screen grab that I have in your reference to Jay’s thread on the previous page in my attempt to understand.

Can you 1) explain who is the “cult” you happened to be responding to? and I am sure you understand the weight, implication and historical references to using such a term and 2) who are the cults “members” that you refer to and how would you describe their roles as part of your said cult, and 3) if you posit a cult has a leader, which I believe you do, what is it that is the offense/sabotage/influence (guessing) that you attribute?

Honest questions. No need to make riddles. I trust this won’t escape you.

There is a certain kind of humor to be found here which will escape some, but not all.

Wow, you all that seem to be celebrating are real class acts. 

"Speaking of big amps. a certain long-running thread was just shut down at the request of the OP. Hooray!"

Hooray!  really?  You sound elated.  So happy for you.

@roxy54  A repeat of that OP's histrionics. I wouldn't be surprised if it comes back to life. It has, before. : )

Was it my thread? I’ll have to look in the summary of threads.

I think there are a lot of good applications for Class D amplifiers, such as small devices that need small amplifiers, but I don’t have that constraint for my home stereo. Of course, I’m the idiot who bought a 175lb amplifier that I am unable to move. Perhaps with the help of one other person I can duck walk the thing into its shipping container.

"Dollar value is used as a proxy for sound quality in order to remove our differences in sonic preferences out of the equation."

I don't think that is true for the majority. I think that it is for a small number.

I think most folks use dollar value in posts as a proxy for sound quality. I don’t think anyone assumes any $40K amp… but one well researched and which appeals to your sonic values as opposed to other less expensive amps also that play to your values.

Dollar value is used as a proxy for sound quality in order to remove our differences in sonic preferences out of the equation.

@jumia +1 "Most class D stuff is all about fitting lots of power in a small package."

+at lowest cost

My gosh this has become very scholarly with respect to transients in a class D setting.

Isn't the harsh reality of class D is that it's to clinical and precise, and harsh. With class AB you get distortion and isn't that what harmonics is all about when you listen to music. It's all about the design and the colorations that are done by the amp designer. Most class D stuff is all about fitting lots of power in a small package.

And class D it's kind of cheap stuff so good luck making class d a preferable way to go

what about reference sampling clock purity, do we need $20k World clock device for sampling analog input signal to match class-D amp with the rest of audiophile setup?

@westcoastaudiophile 

If you mean the 'clock' for the encoding scheme of the amplifier, the answer depends on how the amp runs. If the amp is zero feedback it will be found that the triangle wave generator has to be really stable in order to prevent noise (hiss) being generated at the output. 

But if the amp is self-oscillating, the amp is immune to minor drift in the switching frequency.

I wish you (really) good luck matching tube amp with D-class Amp! 

Thanks. We think we've succeeded in that- we've been making tube amps for nearly 50 years at this point.

@atmasphere "But to be fair, lots of tube amps can do this too, through”

I wish you (really) good luck matching tube amp with D-class Amp! 

@atmasphere "Honestly no-one can hear that.” sure, if you give me $100,000 budget for output filter alone, I can design output filter with close to  0 Ohm ESR caps and 0 Ohm ESR inductors etc.. :-) 

what about reference sampling clock purity, do we need $20k World clock device for sampling analog input signal to match class-D amp with the rest of audiophile setup?

I’ve seen any king of while spectrum noise in different D class amps.. never sine wave! higher freq. though! higher switching freq. amps theoretically should be easier to filter noise out, but again, switching frequency generator has the same reference clock generator issues as any DAC, such as phase noise etc., thus can be heard. 

@westcoastaudiophile If the output filter is doing its job, all you'll see at the output of a class D in terms of noise will be the sine wave residual that is at the switching frequency of the amp. That typically might be from 500KHz (near the bottom of the AM radio band) up to about 800KHz.

Honestly no-one can hear that.

What one might be able to hear is knock-on effects from other equipment if the amplifier has spurious parasitics that are messing with that other equipment- RFI can do messy things with audio.

But to be fair, lots of tube amps can do this too, through the swept resonance that can occur between the power transformer and the rectifiers installed.

We spent a lot of time chasing parasitics in our design. When it was finally ready, when we did the testing of our amp it was the bridge rectifier in the power supply that was making the noise, which we fixed. That is why I said a class D amp can have less spurious noise than a tube amp- whether in the speaker on radiated from the amp through the air or thru the AC power. 

I am not sure what bothers me more: that there are 40K amps or this thread

@atmasphere I’ve seen any king of while spectrum noise in different D class amps.. never sine wave! higher freq. though! higher switching freq. amps theoretically should be easier to filter noise out, but again, switching frequency generator has the same reference clock generator issues as any DAC, such as phase noise etc., thus can be heard. 

@larrykell there is a max current limit through the speaker.. I agree, there is advantage of having more output transistors  in parallel to extend output stage linear region and to dissipate heat, which reduces distortions at high power end, but unfortunately that could increase distortions at low power end, <100mW. Also, driving more output stage devices requires to upsize other amp stages..

max current at amp output calculation using total resistance of speaker line (let’s ignore inductive and capacitive Z):

Rtotal= Rprot+Rcable+Rspkrcross+Rspeaker-coil

where:

Rprot: amp speaker protection circuit resistance, relay or MOSFET

Rcable: loop resistance of speaker cable (x2 one wire)

Rspkrcross: speaker crossover resistance, such as inductor ESR, additional freq. EQ resistors - this may way at different speakers used in 2 or 3 way design

Rspeaker-coil: speaker moving coil DC resistance, typ 3/4/5/6 Ohms

all combined, at 40V peak output voltage, gives 10A max current at ~ 4Ohms load

not really, please try to hookup the oscilloscope to the class-D amp output while driving speakers at moderate power, and check residual noise..

@westcoastaudiophile  Are you referring to the 'residual',  a sine wave that occurs at the switching frequency of a properly designed class D amplifier?

If not ('residual noise' can be interpreted several ways), when you connect the 'scope to our class D amp at least, its clearly quieter than any solid state or tube amp I've tested. Of course, there is the residual, but its of no consequence as soon as it encounters the inductance of a tweeter.

"if the class D is designed properly the amount of noise it makes on account of its switching can be less than many tube or solid state amplifiers."

not really, please try to hookup the oscilloscope to the class-D amp output while driving speakers at moderate power, and check residual noise..

How can this be when the turning on and off of output transistors at a rapid rate in Class D amplifiers produces high frequency noise which must be filtered out? There is no such thing as instantaneous switching.

I tried a Class D amplifier the last time my Colosseum was in for repairs and I hated the thing. It sounded harsh and gritty to me. Granted, it was a $1-2k Class D amplifier. I sold the Glass D amplifier as soon as my Colosseum came back to me.

@larrykell I get that- there is tremendous variance in the sound and technology of class D amps- if you heard the wrong one it can be a big turn off!

How the amp can be immune to crossover distortion has to do with how the audio signal is extracted from the switching of the amp. The output devices turn on and off for differing amounts of time depending on the slope (how steep it is, whether its going up or down) of the incoming audio signal.

This type of analog encoding is called Pulse Width Modulation.

When the switching frequency is filtered out, the audio signal is what remains; there’s no way to generate crossover distortion, inherent in the design. This is a considerably different approach as opposed to traditional Push Pull amplifiers where the output devices have to follow the signal (which is why they can be prone to this problem) in order for it to be amplified.

(Apparently it is possible to build a class D amp that has no output filter; if such an amp were built it could have a problem with crossover distortion. But I know of no such commercially available amp- all I’ve ever seen use output filters.)

Regarding noise, if the class D is designed properly the amount of noise it makes on account of its switching can be less than many tube or solid state amplifiers. They can also have considerably less noise floor in the loudspeakers, making them suitable for driving horn speakers.

To me, it’s about having the power to handle the transients in music and those transients can require tremendous amounts of power. I don’t understand how one can be certain that a small amount of power will be sufficient. The more current reserves an amplifier has the more able it is to effortlessly handle transients. 
 

I learned that speaker drivers do not have a magical number at which they fail. It comes down to how well the spider is constructed, its durability, the ability of the driver to dissipate heat, on and on. 
 

So, I don’t worry too much about whether my Cantata speakers to handle the power I throw at them, I think the drivers are well built.

@atmasphere How can this be when the turning on and off of output transistors at a rapid rate in Class D amplifiers produces high frequency noise which must be filtered out? There is no such thing as instantaneous switching.

I tried a Class D amplifier the last time my Colosseum was in for repairs and I hated the thing. It sounded harsh and gritty to me. Granted, it was a $1-2k Class D amplifier. I sold the Glass D amplifier as soon as my Colosseum came back to me. 

There can be no crossover distortion because the transistors never turn off.

@larrykell It might interest you to know that most class D amps are inherently incapable of crossover distortion.