When someone tells you it's a $40,000 amp, does it sound better?

What’s really troubling herein is that there really isn’t any explanation as to any special part or technique that creates a much more expensive amplifier.

Further, electrical equipment which is very sophisticated requires a break in period. It takes months of listening to mellow out all the components. This is especially true with speakers where mechanics of the drivers need to loosen up.

How is anyone supposed to do a comparison within a dealer with such new products that have not been broken in fully.

And then you hear people who are upset with purchases because they don’t have the patience to break things in so they do acoustical treatments and cables and clutter up their system.

Proceed gradually and work with what you’ve got and then take a chance when your inspired to buy something new.

My next move appears to be some interconnects and maybe a better quality server to replace a nucleus. And longer-term maybe I’ll replace my speakers but they look really nice and need more to break in probably. My amplifiers are mcintosh 600 W mono blocks which go really well with my speakers so no interest in changing these out.

I don’t think it takes months of break in, and any decent dealer will make sure things are properly set up and functioning and not use break in as an excuse.  It is true that it is hard to do meaningful auditions; to some extent experience helps in extrapolating and getting meaningful information from an audition.  If something sounds good in a particular system, you know it is possible to get sound from your target gear; if the audition goes poorly, you cannot rule out the component because it may not be at fault.  This is admittedly complicated, but, in time you will get better at finding what will suit your taste and system.

you paint a utopia that few seem to be able to find. And older speakers can sound a lot better than newer speakers

Ok First of all I have heard 100k amps, 50k amps and 40 k amps as well as stuff 300 to 16k.

The best sounding gear I HAVE EVER HEARD was Pilium…you never heard of Pilium because you have not been to enough places.

Audionet is also good as well as some of the new D’Agastino stuff.

I use a 9000 Luxman integrated now that replaced $16,000 class D Mola Mola Kaluga monoblocks. I am saving for a $40,000 Pilium Leonidas integrated that sounds better than some 100,000 amps I have heard. It is not just price it is sound quality I am after. You probably just heard a lot of budget stuff under 25k most of it is trash. You have to seek things out. By the way Magico who has an unlimited budget voices their M9 speakers that are $750,000 on Pilium amplifiers.

For me, it is really a matter of sonic preference and not so much on price. The Mola Mola Kaluga is a no no for my ears. The D'Ag is also a no go for me. I heard that gear with Dan demoing it with $250K Wilson gear, no thanks. Magico for the most part, another no go, except for 1 model.

I've never known anyone silly enough to spend 40k.

One important aspect to recognize is that when you compare amps from different companies you are comparing different house sounds. Given we all have different values, we will prefer different house sounds more than the particular implementation.

So, say I like Audio Research’s amp sound more that Boulder. A $20K ARC amp will sound better than a $40K Boulder. But if I liked the Boulder sound my choice might be exactly the opposite.

Within house sounds (companies) the sound quality improves with greater price (let’s assume high end stuff > $5K), I don’t think I have ever heard a violation to this generality.

So, I think when you think about your experiences, you need to incorporate this into your analysis. Assuming you are not just biased against high cost. This will either leave you with too little data to draw a conclusion or likely that price / performance has a direct relationship. The slope of the line formed with these two variables will depend on how much you value improved sonic quality.

No. The idea of diminishing returns of quality for investment happens much sooner than $40,000.

Howiver a $40k amp does have the potential to sound bigger and more dynamic in a much larger space than a much less expensive amplifier especially if that price is for mono block amplifiers,

It would also presumably have the capability to power much larger more demanding speakers.

I have heard $40k VAC amps sound remarkable and $40 VTL

amps sound awful.

I’m just grateful the $20K VS $40K is not a real world consideration for me and that I’m happy with what I have.  It suits a far from ideal room that probably can’t be properly treated short of removing or covering a 30 foot wall of large windows.  How much better is Eno’s Apollo with a tranquil view?  Even at that, if I contemplate the maybe $7,500 in my analog system, it seems a bit crazy.  At least that used to be a good used car with lots of legs left.  My normal friends with their Sonos or UE Boom Bluetooth speakers and Spotify on the phone would plan an intervention.  Luckily I don’t have audiophile friends to egg me on.

yes

I totally think expectation bias and looks has a huge play. I also believe a 40k amp sounds better than a 5k amp on average. When get into the 20k plus range it’s probably more about looks than sound quality.

low volume for smallish room I think you can get amazing sound quality for a fraction of the cost. Don’t think most people could tell a difference.

@mofojo 

I understand jealousy.

Hmm ok

@mofojo 

Do you really think people buying $40,000 amps have to deal with small audio rooms?

Did I say I thought people that bought 40k amps had small listening rooms? The big 40k amps normally have enormous current reserves and crazy power ratings. I was just saying at lower levels or in a smaller room there would be less of a difference between a properly designed sanely priced amp and a 40k one.

Best thing I ever heard that sticks with me today was when I was an expat in Shanghai. It was a pair of enormous Focal Utopia speakers powered by lowly totl Mcintosh Monos that I believe were under 20k. Would a 40-50k D'Agostino have sounded better? Maybe. They sure are pretty. 

It doesn't matter what price point one picks, there is simply no amp that can do it all, be the best under all circumstances and please everyone's taste.  Yes, expensive, high-powered amps may be for some people, but, there are a few examples of breathtakingly expensive amps that are quite low in power.  What some of these can do for higher efficiency speakers is amazing.  I've heard the Audio Note Gaku-on on a number of systems and it never disappointed me (it better be good at a quarter of a million dollars).  My own $40k ish amp; sounds great to me, and it works with my 99 db/w speakers, but, it would probably be not so great with something less efficient (it is sort of rated at 5.5 wpc). 

@larryi 

I agree with you. Also, the question of "value" can only be answered by the buyer. If they place high value on the appearance of an amplifier whose casework adds 10k to its price, that is still good value for that buyer. There's no way to determine an absolute universal "value" for anything, although it is often spoken about reasonably in reviews on the correct assumption that the majority of readers looking for a new amplifier in the range of say, 3.5k to 5k will all have a similar take on what constitutes a good value. 

No one is explaining why the price of an amp can be escalated so high?

What parts can possibly be inserted into a box to make it so expensive?

Are gullible people led to believe that it gets better than more you spend?

That don't work and it's grossly misleading for anyone to say otherwise.

@jumia 

Apparently, you haven't been the thread closely. It has been explained many times that amplifiers (or anything) that is made from expensive parts and materials by skilled labor in very small quantities is costly. Those who make these items want to make a good profit from their efforts, as do the distributors and retailers.

No one is "misleading" anyone, and just because some can afford and want to buy these products does not make them "gullible".

I don't anything that can be supported in your comments.

OP,

Huge design time. Painstakingly swapping many different kinds of capacitors, resisters. Remember break in of hundreds of hours. 
 

Higher tolerances on all materials and construction. You can’t just throw it over to China to a contract manufacturer. 

Far greater testing. Boulder has a big breakin room where they run their amps full power until too hot to touch, for days. 
 

Usually greater effort in aesthetics… something that requires some one with real talent, not a high school student.

Lower volume production. 
 

in other words huge investments… and it’s sound must be commiserate with the price… and match the sound and aesthetic requirements of their clientele. 
 

Hidely risky endeavor. 

Amortizing R&D cost, marketing cost, etc. is one way to set price, but price can be set on perceived value.  No matter the cost to build, if you make something that you think performs extremely well, you might set your price based on this perceived value; you will get your price if others agree, and if not, it won’t sell.  With high end audio, there are those who are willing to pay a very high premium for the particular sound they are after.  

The HiFi market (sorry Audiophile) market is so small nowadays, the manufacturers are small, they're generally a handful of guys who are putting this stuff together, there's one guy who started the company who knows a bit about circuits.   Their payroll is probably around $200K/month, and the owner needs to make a profit, and when you consider that you may only sell 10-20 units a month, you can see where the price comes from.

If you look in the mass-produced hifi gear from the 60's and 70's, those were relative bargains compared to today since they were selling volume.  HiFi was mainstream, and there was a lot of competition.   Look inside one some time.   They're built like tanks, transformers that weigh more than a small child, and many of them are still working 40-50 years later.

So no, the gearis overpriced from the standpoint of looking at the materials involved but you've got to face it that this is such a niche market anymore that in some ways it's amazing there are as many companies as there are.

Well, in many cases comparing apples to oranges. $40k may only be medium price in high wattage solid state high end amps. Watts cost money and the better those watts  the greater the cost.

Now I'm at other end of scale, prefer low wattage SET amps, very low parts count, circuits design long ago amortized, all the money goes into output and power transformers. Kondo Audio Note only SET I'm aware of that approaches $40k.

So, it depends on the context when one speaks of $40k amp, this only mid to upper grade compared to other high wattage SS amp, In world where $100K plus amps exist $40k is relatively low cost. Compared to SET where virtually no $40k amp exists this  out of this world price. $40K as an objective price to compare with all other amps is meaningless for me.

Only on Audiogon do we get such priceless pearls of wisdom. Made my morning as I checked emails and there it was. Audiogon Gold.

  It only sounds better if you leave the price tag on there. If you put these wonders in a cardboard box so no one could see the price tag it would be plebeian sound. Did you make sure to put a bag of Precious Pebbles on the heat and cryo treated power cord. :D :D ;D

It tells me that they likely have more money than brains.

Pursuit of the sound you want, for most people comes down to the sound you like at the price you can afford.  with an average household income in the US of 70K less elsewhere 20K amps let alone 40K amps are out of the question.  For those who can afford it buy what makes you happy.  That said:

There are providers out their like John  at Van L speakerworks or Klaus at Oddessey, and  others, who work with you to tailor the e build of thcomponent to your needs, taste and budget.  The good ones like those guys also look at the synergy of your system, providing essentially a bespoke sound. They even take your room into consideration.   Could you spend more and get what to many would be a better sound certainly, but  personally I prefer a 2K tailor made suit to a 4K big name designer off the rack.  Preference, budget and the sound (fit).

Listening music in a not-very-big-but-no-smal-room-also on a Luxman L-550, a set of Quad 2912. the turntable Denon DP-59M, Denon DL-103R and a Yamaha SACD-player S-2000, is my 'vintage' peace of cake. And I'm extremely satisfied. I think that's what it's all about. If any ones satisfaction takes a $ 40,000.- amplifier and dito high end stuf, it's should be all right with anyone. With me it certainly is. As long it's not mandatory ;-)

@jpsreno 

I agree with you on the custom built stuff by the small manufacturers, the guy I use will ask all the questions including what type of music you listen to, what type of sound you prefer, and what equipment and speakers will you be using with whatever it is you are ordering from him.

Goes back to the problem of Breakin, most very expensive amplifiers are not broken in when you buy them. It takes a while. So what your hearing at the dealer if you're lucky enough for him to have a broken in higher-end amplifier that you have an interest in comes nowhere close to what it will sound like at your home. Most purchases are on faith. Gear looks pretty and expensive so I like it and I'll buy it.

Additionally if you have a large net worth spending 40 to $50,000 is all about optics. 
I suspect most of these people buying expensive gear have no idea what it is. They trust dealers and they don't install themselves. It's too damn heavy. And then they turn it on and it sounds nice. And then they go to their other homes and may not even listen to this new system they bought for quite a while. It's just a piece of furniture in the room probably a lot cheaper than the other furniture they have.
 

It's like a trophy wife, you buy the gear because it makes you feel good and you want other people to see it.  And what else are these people gonna spend their money on.  Having a lot of money it's not what it's cracked up to be. 

@mofojo 

So it's okay to spend just under $20,000 for amplifiers, but $40,000 that's too much, some people think $2,000 is too much.

I went to RMAF a few years back and brought my wife. She has a healthy amount of skepticism and calls it the way it is. She heads into a room with some vinyl she just purchased in the marketplace and the host throws it on. There was about 500k worth of equipment playing her disc and I knew we just approached the crossroads with the needle drop. It was unlistenable and after two tracks the album was politely returned to her. I found myself making excuses for a half million dollars worth of equipment. The room was crap, the vinyl was poorly recorded, high end systems reveal more of the truth, crap in crap out etc. Her take was she loved the artist and wanted to enjoy the record….. was tired of three days of well recorded jazz. 

Yup a 40k amp should sound better than a 10k amp but often doesn’t. If I bought it I would have auditioned it in my room to see if it met our very subjective definition of better. If I bought it without auditioning there is a good chance I would be cornered into making excuses. Been there done that. 

We wholeheartedly agree with jumia. We also believe the same for the digital components in high end audio systems.

Check out our Tech Blog on the topic:  How can Something that Costs so Little Sound so Great? 

Deer Creek Audio is an authorized miniDSP dealer.

@mahlman   you had me at "precious pebbles".   Indeed Audiogon gold. 

Deer creek audio and dsp is great for two channel listening.  But they really don't have a workable solution for home theater DSP.  
 

A good DSP arrangement solves a lot of room problems and equipment problems and is underrated and not fully appreciated.  Probably because the interfaces and the product are so difficult to work with. It's a real pain in the ass to deal with DSP the way it's set up and really shouldn't be.  Mcintosh has a room treatment box that provides no graph before after and no way to make changes and requires microphone for sampling just like everybody else. It may sound very nice and very good but I wanna see something and I wanna be able to change something.

Deer creek audio is very convoluted when it comes to home theater listening. They say you can use it for this but it's really not workable.

I believe a couple of things are contributing to the perception of higher priced components sounding better.  The first is anticipation bias.  If someone says "listen to this amazing $40,000 amplifier I just bought" there might be the expectation that such an expensive piece of gear has to sound better because it's so expensive.  This might be more so if you can't afford to buy one yourself.  If you can afford it and bite the bullet, far be it from you to question that your investment didn't make a profound improvement in your system. The second thing has to do with appearances.  1/2" thick double anodized front panels with fancy engraving and machining and fluted knobs, edge lit glass inserts, exotic looking feet, etc. all give the appearance of something special.  This has to sound better; just look at how beautiful this thing is.  Electrons could care less what front panels and knobs look like.  But we can't see electrons or how ripple-free the DC voltage coming out of the power supply is.  How the gear looks though is something one can sink their teeth into.  Appearances seem to make a lot of difference to many and the trend of audiophiles placing their beautiful looking gear between their speakers for the world to see supports that theory.  Years ago, I remember speaker systems hidden behind an open weave curtain.  The electronics were off to the side or behind the listener and there was nothing to distract you from the music which just seemed to come from the performers.     

I hate displaying gear. Whenever someone comes over it's a distraction. I don't mind displaying the speakers but all the other complexity of gear it's just horrifying to deal with when someone starts asking questions.

I'm not going to get into an audio discussion versus just sitting back Play some music in the background that sounds really really nice well doing something other then drooling over how good something soun… having a party with all the gear hanging out is awful.

So I've got a cabinet and while some stuff is exposed most is not directly viewable/camouflaged enough so I don't get confronted with all kinds of questions.

I wish I had a pantry room to put it all in but when it's just me I like to have it out so I don't go nuts every time I want to change a cable or access something. No

“It tells me their have more money than brains.”

Yeah… no. All the audiophiles with large budgets I have known have earned their money. They used their brains and hard work to get their money and use their brains and hard work to acquire audiophile equipment to make absolutely sure they get value what they pay for.

OP, fortunately my gear is in my man cave floor… I guess we are also hermits. I think I have had five or six people down here in twenty years. My system is for me only. 

@invalid,

“So it's okay to spend just under $20,000 for amplifiers, but $40,000 that's too much, some people think $2,000 is too much.”

No it’s none of my business what someone pays for an amp. Yes the majority of people on earth would think a 2k amp is ridiculous. I don’t think that. I think amps that cost what a car does is ridiculous but could give 2 s..ts who buy them. I could buy a 40k amp if I chose to but I do not. There are “magical” amps that cost 200k. If someone wants to buy them have at it. 
 

A guy like ghdprentice said in another thread a 22 thousand dollar streamer was a screaming deal! That’s just funny as hell to me. Buy what you want. 

Hello...My Experience.

Just because a piece of gear has a high price doesn't in itself mean that it will sound good. Also, what sounds good to some might not be your cup of tea. 

Usually when a system has a 40K amp it will usually be paired with equally expensive components, speakers ETC.   

Now the caveat.  I have heard some killer systems in killer rooms - some stupidly expensive and others more reasonably priced.  Achieving good sound is a matter of good system synergy...

That being said,  when you hear a properly set up system at a higher price point the experience can be completely humbling.       

AMPLIFIERS have to be considered in light of the speakers you pair them with. If the speakers fail to reveal more subtle details on the recording, then the amps do not have to be "quiet enough" to produce that level of detail. In that case you're better off buying a less expensive New amp, or go with an older (but more prestigious) brand that 20 years ago "used to be" a top performer. If you are planning to get much better speakers as soon as you save up the money, and you can get a great amplifier on sale or a demo now, you might consider buying it. The best route is almost always to stop eating out and use your bicycle instead of your car to get around, and get the speakers you feel you will be hanging onto for a long time FIRST. Then buy a NAD, HEGEL (or similar darn good amp (or even a well made integrated) and enjoy your music. And IMO avoid components made abroad which are exotic and exclusive (some reviewers consider them to be "the best") but are simply more expensive for the same performance you can get here. High-End  Audio is about what YOU think sounds really good, but there's always the pressure to get something "the experts" proclaim to be 10th row at Carnegie Hall. Especially when it comes to wire, you know your cables are well made, but are they limiting what gets to your speakers? How much more money should you spend on them?I think of all the years I didn't even think about wire as I enjoyed every minute listening to the same music I still listen to now....

Now you own it, and while listening to it you will always be saying to yourself that thing cost $40,000 and somehow you’ll enjoy it more.

You will enjoy it more because it would be better.

Is it going to be 40x better than a 1k preamp, most likely not, but it will perform way better in areas that a lesser preamp cannot even touch.

The question is would you buy it, if funds allowed, to enjoy it or to show off. I want to believe that many here would buy it for enjoyment.

I cannot understand, while in this passion, some people reject the idea of expensive gear, quite a few of those reflect somehow their value.

Personally i would go for it, i have one in mind, and show a fake invoice to my wife.

A great amp will shine even with modest speakers.  A friend told me about the day he was working at an audio shop where they used a really good amp with a range of lower priced speakers, including a pair of old and battered Polk speakers, and every speaker sounded amazingly good.  That was when he became convinced about how extremely important amps are to the sound.

Possibly my ears can't discern the difference between 20 and 40 thousand. I will be better off with 20 thousand. My only question is how do you listen to all these different sound systems in your room. Tested with the same songs and the same volume, at the same time of day with no invading sounds, at the same temperature and the same amount of drugs in your system. 

I rant!

@jumia 

A good DSP arrangement solves a lot of room problems and equipment problems and is underrated and not fully appreciated.  Probably because the interfaces and the product are so difficult to work with. It's a real pain in the ass to deal with DSP the way it's set up and really shouldn't be.  Mcintosh has a room treatment box that provides no graph before after and no way to make changes and requires microphone for sampling just like everybody else.

My safety net for audio room issues is AccurateSound.ca. The guy running that service has a remote DSP creation service that works well (and easy for the client). I used them for a big speaker in a small room and the results were excellent. I no longer use that DSP (Convolution filter) because I have a small speaker in this room, and it is a seamless fit.

It may sound very nice and very good but I wanna see something and I wanna be able to change something.

I have not tried this new software that AccurateSound has created but they have something to allow you to try different Convolution filters quickly to see how it sounds.

If you are a ROON or JRiver user and are mainly focused on digital streaming audio, then AccurateSound is gold. This is a computer software-based approach to room correction so it will work with all gear. The software they use is very expensive audio software and is very complicated.  I also consider this solution miles more powerful than any DSP stuffed into audio gear (no matter the price of the gear).

I am considering a $35K amp for my Livingroom system. The cost of that amp is way higher than I normally spend but I have reasons that made me chose that over a $6750 used amp in the same lineup. I also considered the phenomenal CODA #16 at $13K, but I want more power.

My to the grave amp in my office cost $3K each (monos)

Only your ears will be able answer that question. Stop listening to others and start listening to yourself. Should a 40k amp sound better than a 20k one: it should, but it’s you that must make that determination not the supposedly know it alls that troll these forums daily with their opinions based on their beliefs!

Yyzsantabarbara,

Have you considered putting more money toward interconnects and speaker cables and a good power management system versus taking a chance on a $40,000 amp that you will only really be hearing after it's been broken in.

Or maybe split the difference and use the remaining $20,000 toward interconnects on speaker cables and a good power management system.

Or maybe a really nice car that's $40,000 higher then what you were planning to spend assuming you need a new car. I still find it annoying when you spend a lot more money on a car you have to spend a lot more money on freaking insurance because idiots still steal cars

@jumia I put some money into interconnects for my Benchmark system. The sources to the preamp use Audience Au24 SE XLR and RCA. The speaker cable is Audience FrontRow. The cable between the Benchmark LA4 preamp and Benchmark AHB2 monos is low cost Benchmark XLR (there is a reason I did not spend more here).

I think the cables are dialed in perfectly on this system. I also have a power management system that I think is very good, a Torus RM15. Essentially what Bryston uses internally in their amps for instantaneous power deliver.

I have tested all of these pieces both with 2-channel and my RAAL SR1a headphones (which are as revealing as it gets). There is nothing I am unhappy with in this system.

On the new system I am building for a much bigger room (volume) I want to get exactly the sound I have before with an amp I sold last week. I just want way more power from the new amp than I had before. There are also some other improvements on the new amp that I have not heard yet that I think will make me buy the amp. I am buying a $2K or $3K preamp instead of the $16K preamp my dealer is suggesting. I rather put more money into the amp.

I had a really nice car for 20 years. A stick shift BMW M3 E46 that I put 200K miles on. I sold that recently and now have a RAD Wagon cargo bicycle which I did 4K miles locally over the past 13 months. A car no longer has any attraction for me. Now the audio system I am building is much more interesting.

Agreed you should let your ears make the decisions.  I also believe most people live within their means.  No one can tell you what sounds better or what you should spend.  Not everyone can spend 250k or a million bucks on a sports car but I don't criticize those who do.