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When I listen to my system.......
As I have stated many times, I listen to the musicianship and the composition. As I listen to SRV, just as an example, there are three musicians working together to create a "performance". How is it that anyone can put tone, sound staging, or anything else with the "sound" before the performance. There is much information on our recordings, and generally, many of these recordings are just so so with the fidelity. In fact, why do many listeners only listen to top notch recordings of higher fidelity, of the "sound", rather than appreciate those qualities I look and listen for. Is it because I was a singer / vocalist in my youth? Is it because I was around musicians who shared the joy of "music"? Is it because at a very early age, I was introduced to big band music and eclectic performances by so many, via my dad (he would have been 100 today; happy birthday dad). Yes, I consider myself an audiophile, because I spend money on gear and am careful with my dedicated room....my system allows me to hear more of the performance. But, it is the "music", the "performance", that matters most to me. I suppose I am feeling a bit nostalgic today, because of my pops. I am bringing this up again, because I do not understand the mentality of folks who listen differently than I. I know this subject might be ad nauseum to many, but some of the folks I used to design systems for, became less interested in the music, and more about the sound, placing the music and performance secondary, or not at all. I am just venting. If you would like to add to this post, I welcome all thoughts. No judgement from me. I wish everyone well. Enjoy! MrD.
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Congratulation!
You are lucky on 2 counts not one... You are lucky because you succeed at low cost to reach a minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold suited to you... You are lucky because you did it at relatively low cost...
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Congratulation!
You are lucky on 2 counts not one... You are lucky because you succeed at low cost to reach a minimal acoustic satisfaction threshold suite to you... You are lucky because you did it at relatively low cost...
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I’m serious. The video shows human ears can be deceived easily with un-natural sounds and how bad un-natural sound really is. All speakers in the world behave/sound like the left speaker in video. People always say the funny sound is from the room. Record at outside shuts them off. Alex / wavetouchaudioPro |
Music is an informed set of sounds which we understood and felt better when we are able to modify the contributing musical or in my case acousticals parameters.Then the OP is right in my book. But i listen music now, not my gear, because my modified system/room is optimal and i can forget it, unlike the OP , to concentrate in Bach genius or on Chet Baker trumpet voices hues... The ratio of money invested in music versus gear is without comparison in my case... Thanks to acoustics i discovered that it is useless to spend money on gear if we dont understand how to use it acoustically.
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greetings kind regards give the age of your dearly departed father i infer you are some age . in which case i am surprised you have not concluded and accepted the fact people are different . each w/ their own peculiarities . as the saying goes "taste is a matter of taste." . though i must admit i enjoy learning of said differences though not in an argumentative manner . as for my own two cents' worth i enjoy the thrill music provides more so per the quality of the reproduction . i also take great pleasure in noting the quality of my system as per said quality of reproduction . i also take pleasure in leaning composer's decisions . cheerios and best wishes |
I agree that many artists know mic coloration and id the used mic for some recordings. We know Elvis' mic and it's sound.People and artists can only hear and conceive what is available. The distortion free natural sound mic wasn't exist until now and they have no idea what it sounds like (although natural real sounds are always all around us). It's been an audio myth. No one wants these coloration, distortion, noise in recordings. Neumann and Shure didn't remove it. Surely artists don't know there is a way to remove these noises and take it as normal. Almost world best mics ( >$20k) are from 1930~1960 and I hear them sound really better than modern mics. They sound cleaner but still noisy. We need better and cleaner sound recordings. To women and non-audiophiles, the sound from $million audio systems sound like a left speaker in below. https://youtu.be/IHf_FSa8amE?si=dVFFSGjROY-1IE4p People pay $$$$ for music concerts and what they get is crappy noisy sounds. Same goes for churches, schools, sports arenas, and radio (TV) stations. Some invest millions on audio systems and there are only noisy recordings. Some of these bad sounds are a health hazards. For us audiophiles, do we want better sounds? Do we want this sound for another century? It's a time to make a change. Alex/ wavetouchaudioPro |
“Artists don’t know…” THAT is a remarkably arrogant statement. I have many friends who are professional performing and recording artists, incl my own daughter. I assure you they know what they are listening to. One is so tuned in to the colorations (the polite word for distortions) of different microphones that he can listen to a recording of a singer on my audio system and correctly identify the microphone that the vocalist was using. |
You are correct that the hi-end audio should deliver the music the way the artist intended. What artists don’t know is that all mics and speakers sound un-natural with distortion noise. So, all recordings (and audio systems) sound un-natural/noisy like a left speaker in below video. https://youtu.be/IHf_FSa8amE?si=korT0IHNnDqZVGsT I’m not an artist but I want to make a natural sound distortion-free recording. So, I made a natural sound microphone and record a 1st natural sound video. Compare the distortion noise of my mic and other mics in below. https://youtu.be/lW2oifRtdm4?si=zTKVkbtdeEpzpqrb Alex/ WavetouchaudioPro |
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I'm a bit confused with the point of this thread There are 100 ways for one person to listen to one piece of music. So not only is each person having a different experience based on what they focus on and what it does for them, but each person's listening experience often changes as we go through time (and equipment in many cases) Music works when it connects for us and there's no formula for that. |
How one determines what their enjoyment for Live Music encounters and Recorded Music Encounters means, is usually to be discovered, that the meaning is quite a lot of different things, and is more a unique holding to each individual. Music stimulates, as well as brings forward memories and is also a experience to be encountered, that is looked forward to. How individuals respond to these moments of a musical encounter also makes each unique in how they place a importance on a musical encounter, albeit either Live or Recorded. As a very basic description about my own interest in music encounters that have been an important part of how I use my spare time. I view my encounters with Music as a form of entertainment. I only recollect experiencing Live Music with the intent to be in an audience as part of a social experience, from that point of being in attendance, I had no further input to how I was to experience the music encounter, it was all pre-arranged in the hands of others . Listening to recorded music evolved differently, as there is market solely in place for this. Choice for devices as a Source and Supporting Equipment, Brands and Sales Spiel are becoming much more familiar as an information that is needing to be navigated through. Radio introduced most to a broad range of music, and I still use a proportion of listening to Radio for this purpose today, there are a few very good slots where new Bands are given there Debut on air, and other unknown Performers always show up during a session. Cell Phone Apps, can make identifying and logging the names of unfamiliar performers very easy to achieve. From Radio experiences, the collection of Recorded Music commenced, the size of a collection would become a thing for a period of time, which then evolved into a keen interest on the betterment of the equipment to be used for replaying recorded music. I will have to admit at this stage, I was one of few in group, who were divided between Vinyl and CD as Source, to which I was Wed to Vinyl for more than 30 Years before CD became a shared Source in the system. I would also suggest this is around the first time I was to become familiar with term like HiFI and Audiophile. Today I have the knowledge, the origins of the common usage of High Fidelity extends back close to 100 years, where the term was first seen to be coined for use on the public in general. The term was seemingly used to accompany Film Poster Adverts on Bill Boards to promote the notion the Orchestral Sound Track for the Film was an improved sound, I believe Bell Industries were recording Orchestras for the Film Industry and used the term to promote their recording methods. The use of Audiophile and Hi-Fi came approx' 20 Years later and are both terms that are to be found used in marketing spiel used in the 50'S. The use of Audiophile and HiFi have caught on and as they are daily in use, a meaning has been attached to create a common interpretation for the usage. Accompanying the evolvement of the Term Audiophile and HiFi and the commonly seen description given for the words usage. There has been growing in parallel, the evolvement of the use of Technical Talk. Descriptions commonly seen to be passed around, that is easily identified for being a Technical Talk, whether accurate or not, is today seemingly a addition to the interest in Audio Equipment that gives an individual a credence in what they have purported. There are a selection of individuals who are attaching to their interest in Audio Equipment a sub-interest, which detracts from where the sole use of the audio equipment is to replay recorded music. A sub-interest which is being seen, is one where it is a necessity to analyze the Technical Side of the equipment to be used. With forums being easily entered into, there is now a large window for the content to be discovered. I myself see the understanding how to better audio equipment and the listening to recorded music as two different hobbies. Listening to music stirs one type of emotional interaction, where as using intelligence putting ideas into practice, is quitr different. The average Film Watcher with an intent to be entertained, can end up really enjoy the film, without needing to be the Director, Camera man, Editor, even when the fantasy of the film has taken hold and the watcher is fancying themselves as being an individual playing a role in the movie. In Audio, the listener can in most occasions become the Air Guitarist, Drummer, Conductor of the Orchestra, and enjoy that moment to its very fullest. In some cases though, the design for the Volume Control, Capacitor C3 used in the circuit, or the shape of the Wave in the product reviews analysis let the performance down, to the point it was not able to be enjoyed. |
Sounds like you think you are alone in putting together a good sounding audio system and realize you can hear all the things important to you with more clarity and detail allowing you to feel the intentions of the artist. my goals in audio system build out is to hear more detail and nuance of the musicians performance. I have put together such an audio system based on my greater connection with the artists performance. many folks buy new equipment because it has more watts or a cool light or because its look tickles their fancy. But we need them to keep this market alive I think 90% of wine “connoisseurs” are fake and have no idea what good wine is and chase the good review wines from what mags they read. Same thing pretty much in all hobbies
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@desktopguy , I meant to also say that adding music to the equation could turn it into a world I didn’t want to leave. I remember the first time I really truly ’heard" Legend Of A Mind, I was like, ". . . yeah, maaaaan . . . nowww I get it . . .". Anyway, I remember a discussion of synesthesia some time ago, and at the time I thought I might have a mild form of it. Letters of the alphabet all do have certain colors for me, and therefore, for me, all words have a color. Also as far as music goes, it does induce colors in my mind; however, not nearly as profoundly as what you described.
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"to obtain what you sre describing always took/takes ingesting chemicals" You're quite right. Later on, when I was in college, I fully explored those chemicals. Sometimes those experiences were wonderful ... occasionally the opposite. But in any case, hallucinations from mescaline or LSD seemed a bit familiar to me, in quality if not degree. |
I can see where this might be a double edged sword. Although on a good evening or afternoon music can move me quite deeply, to obtain what you sre describing always took/takes ingesting chemicals, and I will say that I enjoy(ed) it immensely. However, I can also see where this could become problematic:
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My father had his issues, but one outstandingly good thing he did was to expose my twin brother and me to music from the first days home after we were born. There are some amusing pictures of Michael & I sitting in our twin high chairs, throwing food around (no more than 2-3 yrs old), rocking to Duke Ellington or Count Basie LPs. We also heard all the Beethoven symphonies, some Brahms, Mozart, and lots of Bach. As soon as we could walk we were instructed in how to safely play LPs, and did so incessantly. I didn’t know it then, but I had quite a case of synesthesia: whenever I heard music and closed my eyes, I hallucinated wild colors and architectural/geometric shapes. I thought everyone did that. I experienced music then as a deeply moving rabbit hole I had trouble climbing out of when it was done. Other than the playback gear and lower incidence of synesthesia, very little has changed. |
It is a quick easy read, and I could relate to a lot of what it included. For example: "Sound quality is an important part of the music listening experience. A great example of this, in my opinion, is the underappreciation of orchestral music. I firmly believe the reason a lot of people can’t get into this timeless genre is due to the horrible sound quality they’ve heard it in. They may actually like it on a system that reveals more of the intricacies and melodies in the compositions. Simply put, better sound quality allows one to hear more music and less murky garbage. This means that the more complex the musical arrangements—the more that’s going on in this music—the more the listener will benefit from hearing the music played through better—more revealing—sound, which will make better sense of it than bad sound will." Classical music is not my favorite genre, but last summer when I was auditioning/breaking in a new pair of speakers I did play several CDs I had of orchestral music and I actually did derive a certain level of appreciation from certain aspects of it by paying attention to certain details that I had never noticed before. Jazz is another genre that I only gained an appreciation of as my system evolved. The author writes this paragraph: "It’s like audiophiles who obsess with the choice of speakers, but not much else. I’ve heard systems where 90% of the system budget went into buying expensive speakers, only to have them incorrectly placed and connected to inadequate gear that made them underperform. Such a lopsided system never sounds as good as one with more modestly-priced speakers carefully placed and installed, driven by quality electronics." And I have always thought that the electronics up front dictated the quality of the final sonic result out of the speakers.
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@logistics , do you hear those details on poorly recorded or poorly mixed or poorly mastered source material? |
It's because you had involvement with music. I, having a background playing guitar, also appreciate the nuances of the performance. Even in a studio recording I hear those little details like the strings rattling against the forward fret because the action on the neck is wrong or the player just didn't press hard enough. |
I do a mix of both. There are times I’m listening to how well my stsyem sounds. And times I’m just listening to music I like. Ideally all the music I grew up with and love would also sound amazing but sadly that’s not the case. Luckily I’ve developed an appreciation of bluesy Jazz, mostly acoustic that also sounds great. But the stuff I grew up with that I have a stronger emotional attachment to tends to be fairly poorly recorded. But sure, I still listen to it often. |
@ghdprentice, exactly my sentiments. My system makes everything sound good. Shitty recordings sound decent, excellent recordings sound excellent. This works very well for me because despite the money that I have invested, paradoxically I listen now to a lot of bootlegs from the ‘70’s, which sometimes are good and sometimes not so good. But my system has just the right balance for me. I am happy. And I’d like to put in a plug for the Shunyata Everest, my last acquisition that finished off that sound and depth of stage that I have been looking for. |
Hopefully last response to this rabbit hole
This is patently false given the topic named Music with over 10,000 threads in it on this forum. Without having perused them I feel safe in assuming many folks here have gathered to discuss music likely outside the context of their gear. |
Claiming a recording IS real music is analogous to saying a photograph of my dog IS my dog (without the fur :-). Really not the same thing at all. No not at all. It comes down to your definition of music and I choose to agree with Wikipedia’s. I don’t know who’s definition you are using. From Wikipedia: Music is the arrangement of sound to create some combination of form, harmony, melody, rhythm, or otherwise expressive content. Music may be performed using a wide variety of musical instruments, including the human voice. It can also be composed, sequenced, or otherwise produced to be indirectly played mechanically or electronically, such as via a music box, barrel organ, or digital audio workstation software on a computer. There is nothing to say that the sequence of sounds must be produced "on the fly" and this last paragraph would include recorded music which is indirectly played. |
So, I suppose @inagroove , that what you are spending all of your money on with equipment / gear / room acoustics is to reproduce something (music) that is fake? Why not just have a boom box, which btw, many musicians in some instances use to play back the recordings of themselves playing / singing / performing during a practice. Recorded music is not music? This is a 1st for me, as I never heard this from anyone before. I believe you are the one that is different from the masses...but it is quite ok. Individual thinking makes us unique and different from one another. I like your equipment, but I would have a completely different arrangement of the gear / speakers if that were my room. My best and Enjoy! MrD. |
@inagroove music is defined as “vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) combined in such a way as to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion.” There is no requirement that it be live. Your dog analogy represents the distinction between a “live” dog and a photograph of a dog. They are both dogs but different representations of it. Live music and recorded music are both music just different representations of it. What happens when live music is amplified and played through speakers? Does this mean it’s not music since it’s being reproduced by microphones, processed by electronics, and playing back through speakers which may or may not capture exactly the sound produced by an unamplified instrument? |
@ toddalin Your comments are missing the point. Once music is recorded/reproduced you leave the world of music and enter the world of music reproduction, which is why we gather in this forum to discuss gear, not performers/performances (unless it is to clarify a point regarding gear).
If you are still scratching your head, perhaps an explicit analogy will help - Claiming a recording IS real music is analogous to saying a photograph of my dog IS my dog (without the fur :-). Really not the same thing at all. Once this is concept is clear, 'music vs gear' comments (which started this thread) in this forum are inappropriate. There are more appropriate forums in which to discuss music. And yes, Loops are processed, not live music. I thought that was obvious. No further comments needed.
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Agreed "music" does not have to be live to be music. But even a live performance performed though any sort of public address system is subject to many of the same "flaws" as a recorded track. What of the music that is performed simultaneously with background recordings? Is that "live?" What of a performer who "loops" a sound byte? How about the guitar player using an Echoplex where the echo is created through the use of a tape loop? |
@inagroove there is no requirement on the definition of music that it applies only to live music. It’s music whether it’s live or recorded. I do agree that there are differences between the two. Among them being that the sound of recorded music, that a loudspeaker creates, is a facsimile of the sound created by the actual instrument and is subject to both of the influences you mention and certainly more. |
@immatthewj ....! A food means of describing 'the audio experience'......
...comparisons with various menu marvels....(*sigh* ....I know, I know.... Happens every issue these days. "This prototype preamp functioned like a stale tuna sandwich....." ;) @inagroove ...Precisely, much like when film was a series of single images with the sound track added. One's mind accepted these as smooth moving imagery. Cut to Now: In our shared reality, the digital means to 'do' most anything is basically Here. AV is just one block in a very big and growing; one could conceive of an environment that could simulate an actual situation down to the smell of the space and what it felt like to be 'there'.... ....comes down to the same old question... "What's that worth to you?" *S* ;)
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