What's going on with the audio market?

Jmcg that's interesting.  I have not sold anything here in about a year.  Last I did I did get a fair price but it took a couple markdowns by me to sell.   Not huge ticket items but I could see where the pricier items around these parts could be a very tough sell. 

I have kids still going to college and several years from retirement so I know I have to watch what I spend on discretionary stuff.  

With Brexit, now what will happen to British audio?   A buyer's market ahead?

@mapman , where you been? It's been as strong of a buyers market for the last 1+ years as I've ever seen, even going back before Audiogon was created.

Sure. things can always get worse, but how much can you buy if nothing is selling? After a year of taking advantage of a buyers market, I now have to stop as nothing will sell. What looked like a steal only 6 months ago (60-75% off list) now has to be given away at another 25-30% loss.

As a seller ( and a buyer), I have halted buying until the market recovers a bit, and I can sell some of my extra gear.
Now if gear starts selling for 10% of list, I may be tempted to buy some more. ;^)

I have a good bit of two channel stuff amps and receivers, turn tables and cd players.
After I'm dead they can give it all away or let the trash man have it, but I have two grand kids 14 and 15 I am raising, they know what it is and why it's special, I have no worries about it all.
They also get the big house it's in , they have no video games ,cable tv or cell phones.
They love to read real books and listen to their vintage two channel setups.
They are being raised with a good heathy dose of self reliance and skepticism about the world they will be living in.

Definitely. Pound is down big time, uncertainty is huge, the dealers will really want to make sales. I usually buy small stuff including cartridges from them. 

With Brexit, now what will happen to British audio?   A buyer's market ahead?

I have been into music and equipment that makes recorded music sound great since the 8th grade (now 30 years since college graduation :)). I have really enjoyed picking and choosing/upgrading my audio gear over the years. As I became more aware of what I liked, I talked to dealers and more learned audiophiles than myself. I have put together a system now that I really enjoy and do not have "upgradinitis". Well, maybe a liitle bug to research more info on cables that do not cost more than my BMW. Even with the false Stock Market highs, the economy for the middle class is not healthy. It seems more dealers are concentrating on a few $100,00.00 sales than many $5,000.00 sales. That said, one can buy (either used or new) a great sounding system for a decent price. I read but do not believe audio magazine reviews and hyped up marketing mumbo-jumbo. It is a tough sell to the younger generations who cannot fathom to actually sit down and listen with heart open to great music. They love their music on the go, at raves/concerts and driving in cars.

These locations are too isolated. I want to be in the Nashville area (the hub of the wheel) which is a days drive from most anywhere in the country. I hear it will be a long time until any pot progress is made there (Bible belt) short of the Feds easing-up. Poor Me.

Weed is legal in Colorado and I never heard anyone pay attention to it in Wyoming, Alaska and parts of California. 

This may be the "Big Payoff" for us loyals who spent our disposable income on gear instead of boring things like houses. If you've paid your dues and know what's what, you can (finally) pick up some bargains and have a reference quality system for half off.
Now if we would legalize weed, I could fade away in peace with the ultimate tweek.

"This stuff has a long lifespan, unlike a cellphone"

Hence the MkII dinner bells. "Come and get it!"

What I don't fully understand is how fragile the used market in the wake of audiogon changes. It appears to me the trading is way down; I have to wait forever to a particular item to be listed on any site.

i think the same problem that is going on in the watch market.  big money in asia was buying it all up, so companies started getting greedy and jacking up prices.  Now that the bottom fell out who's left to buy a 25k G series amp

The same thing is occurring in other luxury sectors. For example, sales of mechanical watches are also hurting. The slowdown in Asia is a major factor.  Another is the problem of oversupply.  This stuff has a long lifespan, unlike a cellphone. Without newbies entering the foodchain, our gear piles up, and eventually we can no longer justify another upgrade that will have only a minor effect on the listening experience. I wish I could take advantage of some of the nice gear currently on offer, but not unless I can sell some of what I already have.

I’m 62 years old. I bought my first new "good" equipment in 1974 at a PX in SE Asia. In the 80's I bought black box stuff, then found vintage vacuum tube. Had fun with that but the sound is lacking.
Last fall I spent under $15,000.00 on new Harbeth (deeply discounted) speakers a used like new VAC integrated amp some used cables and Entreq Audio tweaks. My Garrard 301 is going out for a total rebuild Friday. I have a wonderful set up that I enjoy very much. I am happy! And done.
I have no idea why the used market is so bad now. The economy the ongoing hateful elections and home theater.

55, 30, ?

I can get by on a lot less these days and that pertains to audio as well.  At most, audio is only an 8-9 month hobby out of the year.  In summer, I don't want to sit on my rear and listen to music, only when I'm couped up during the winter and colder months.  

Also, it's more about nostalgic gear than anything else.  I don't care about new gear, or even gear that is less than 10 years old.  If I see something cool from my youth, then I think it would be cool to obtain it.  I'm definitely still stuck in the 80's when it comes to audio purchases.  My Oppo dvd player (used for CDs) is my newest gear, everything else is vintage more or less.  

The hobby is just not that important these days.  That feeling has come and gone thru the years, next year, I might be more into audio than I am right now, and that is just fine.  Thanks for reading.

Fixate on audio. Politics has nothing to do with it. Anyway. This hobby takes your time and money. I think the prices are so high it becomes Benz or audio.  House or audio.  College tuition or audio.  It is insane. I say it now but I was in the spin cycle.   I'm done 

Yup Obama is too blame for the bad audio market the last 8 years. It always comes back to Obama.  No Obama no audio problem.  Anyway. Make higher quality better priced gear and it could grow again. 

Hey @coli 

I agree about the Mogami cables. LOL. They are a great value. Though in my case it helped to have some decent equipment to start with.  

The audiophile market is dead.

BTW, you can get great great great sound with ($500) av receiver and cheap ($100-200) speakers. The trick is use mogami speaker cable.

I had a $10k+ audiophile system. I sold it at quite a big loss. My current system cost less than $1000 and sounds way better (active monitors are amazing bang for the buck). Technologies have moved on.

I still got a pair of audiophile floorstander left, I might write it completely off soon.

btw. I was talking about official factory upgrades, such as new drivers for the "same" speakers and vibration control feets. i agree a 100% that homegrown changes can destroy the sales-price.

Lots of great responses here. Obviously its a combination of several things such as format changes, economy, baby boomers getting older and their kids not catching on to 2 channel audio, outrages prices, saturation, etc...  One thing I do think is cool, vinyl has been making a comeback and I have seen younger generations gravitate towards it. There's nothing like having that big vinyl disc in your hand and watching it spin. Hopefully when the market stabilizes we will see things come back around. I have never seen in my life the economy, racial relations, greed and many many other crazy things happen as it has the last 8 years or the Obama era.  Not starting a political discussion but in my opinion lots of areas of society and business have gone to crap. Hopefully some of it can recover. :)

@extravaganza , 
you would need to research whom is doing the modding. There are couple of great people out there with experience and integrity whom mods audio equipment because of passion for music but not for commercial reasons. Hopes you can continue to support them so these small group of people survives. 
-philip

As a buyer I want stay away from any upgraded  or modified speakers ,cd players,amps:) No insults or offense to people who doing it.Just bad experience when bought modiefied cd player.
 

Changes in listening habits, formats etc.. You have to replace the older audiophiles with new ones eventually and the price of some of this gear is crazy. I just want to enjoy the music and not obsess over it. Streaming, high prices, less real musicians,less discretionary income declining two channel market is killing the hobby

Very stagnant economy the past 10 years with a feeble recovery. Middle class income wages diminishing, true unemployment rate is high. Look at the Labor Dept statistics u6=the full picture, u3 of 5% is misleading and incomplete. Our economy needs a major boost and approach. Many people lack discretionary income. National debt has ballooned from 9 trillion to 19 trillion in only 8 years, not good.

. Charles pretty much hit the nail on the head. This "hobby" is a luxury for most, not a necessity. Most people do not have discretionary money to spend on non necessities due to the lousy economy which grew at less than 1% last quarter. And frankly, in order to get a satisfying result one most spend a pretty big penny. My 2 cents.

Hi all

Interesting Thread going on here. Was asking me the same questions... in '14 I've sold my Audio Physic Avanti 5 (ex demo in a bad shape) for about the purchase price. Note: I was the official first owner and had put on some 3 years of listening by then. All this within a week of offering in one single marketplace. With the money recieved I've then bought me the upgraded version of the same speaker in as new condition (!)

One year later I was thinking about getting new speakers. So I've tried to sell the upgraded avantis, still in perfect shape, for 80% of my purchase price (25 - 30% of their new price... as i've got them cheap) and had NO f...ing offer for 6 months, despite offering them all around europe on 3 platforms. So, there are definitely some strange things going on! End of the story: Kept my speakers and upgraded them instead of loosing money.

My dealer seems to struggle to, he is selling some watt puppy 5,1s for 1$ starting bid.

Which leads me to my numbers. I am 35 now, was 17 when i've bought my first serious system. Selling/Buying better stuff never ended  since then, but it shure will end right now. For one simple reason: The people don't seem to rekognize the value of serious, well selected and combined high end no more. Considering the catalogue price of my gear (all bought 2nd hand) my system is a steal, and never fails to impress me and every serious listerner. But if you start talking about prices, they look at you as if you where taking drugs. Knowing what I own, I am not willing to put my stuff on market again. Maybe one day a friend or a not yet born son will inheritate it all.

bdp24,

I do agree with you that the demise of our country on many levels is indeed sad and alarming.  Education and social skills are at the top of the list.

As I feared. And I can’t really argue the point, or offer a defense, can I? But I did think it was related to the mention of the movie, and the decline in standards, both in terms of music systems/listeners, and America itself. Does that make me an a-hole :-( ? Hopefully Donald Trump will become President, and make America great again ;-).

bdp24,

Yes it may be too much to ask and yes you do sound condescending and smug.  You may want to take you skills to this forum:

http://www.myenglishpages.com/forum/forum_files/forum_index.php#.V02s8L6LKSo

Are there any other competencies one should possess per your sensibilities?

Here is another site you might enjoy:

http://chatabout.com/topic/good-manners

Absolutely jmc! Speaking of which, is it too much to ask for "to" and "too" to each be used where and when appropriate? They do mean different things, after all. I don’t want that to sound condescending or smug, but sheesh, c’mon man!

Idiocracy is a documentary film of current events. ;^)

I just wish Idiocracy had been a better movie. The concept was fantastic, wasn't it? (present company--me--not excluded). Sometimes, I feel like we're all getting dumber.... 
Respectfully,

I could add that even when I have some funds for an upgrade, I don't do it, just not in the mood. Perhaps I have a slight brain damage too without really knowing it.

People are becoming a computer dependent digital race. It's a brain damage if you ask me, no doubt.
But there are still many who appreciate natural things including good sound. Problem is that they are losing the power of influence to counteract this degeneration tendency.
One day all this is going to blow the hell up, I guess.

.
63, 47, 2

I've had a receiver-based stereo system since I was in college.  I bought my first separates at the age of 47 when I was at the apex of my earning power.  During my journey, I've certainly discovered the fact of diminishing returns in audio.  I also discovered the value of the used audio market where outstanding buys can be found.  I've got a couple of more years left in me to buy stuff.  Even then it will be an upgrade to a pre-owned item.  It's comforting to know that current new outstanding components will still sound astounding in ten years...and they will be available at great prices.

Please excuse obviously misplaced post above. I plead senility.

1-Y here. I suppose that constitutes having met my military obligation. I showed up at the physical and did everything that was asked of me. 
Fact is I was hit in the left eye by an errant rock while in high school and have had a blind eye ever since 1963. No regrets about being rejected though. 

I'm 52, started in hifi at around 18, ??.

I have been saying/feeling this for the past 3-4yrs now. Audio gear pricing has been increasing for no reason at all, other than greed by audio companies. If you want to stifle sales of anything, just raise the price and keep raising it, at some point people will stop buying.
And this is not just about the "vinyl craze", all gear has been on a price run. I have been looking at getting a new set of speakers, take for example Wharfdale Jade 7s. Came out at $4200.00 in 2013, from what I read they did not sell well and now you can get them for about $2500.00 discounted. I have seen cartridge mfg increase prices last year by 30-40%, same carts just a higher price.
I think there is an audio price bubble that is at least 20-25% over inflated...

Now there is some business going on in the super high end audio......I read a review of the new Marten Coltrane 3 speakers, $100K a pr. The owners stated that at a recent audio show they had taken orders for 7 pr, not bad for a speaker that when originally came out were priced at $50K.

Just like anything else, labor is the big % of sales prices these days, you can't tell me the Coltrane 3 has $50K worth of materials in those speakers.....

Maybe the bubble is breaking but I am not sure what is going to happen....

In the 80s and 90s it was cool to have a good "system" in your car or house.  It was sort of a friendly competition among my peers. Now I have one non online friend who cares anything about music or stereos.  I feel like a Martian!  

I agree with the lack of audio stores. I am 150 miles from a couple, 300 miles from Dallas. But I'm aware that many people test the gear in stores and buy online for a better price. I'm not passing judgement, just stating a fact.

No telling what the future brings. Things seem to run in cycles. The other day a younger friend commented that someone should start washing windows and checking your car out when you gas up. I agreed.

I had that job 80 hours a week for $1 an hour in 1975. Companies are now selling the fact that the phone is answered by a human. No telling what comes next...

My kids (in their early 50s) and grand kids (late 20s), but for 1 daughter, have no interest in the patience and suspending of all other so called tasking to sit and listen to anything or even read a printed on paper page of any publication or book unless it's Very Small and portable. That's a few generations of lost audiophile equipment sales right there. I have a pretty costly sound system and I collected first edition books for 50 years and other stuff.. Collected mint, not saved. Grand kids Could buy 2 or three homes with my stuff. But none are interested or care to put down their I-phones. They don't even get the buy homes part. Facebook, video games and constant texting and "look at me" attitude have replaced everything us 70 year olds  used to see as pragmatic. My worst nightmare would be dying and my family putting all this stuff on the lawn for a yard sale. 5 bucks for YG Carmels (cause they're smaller than..), 10 bucks for a Vitus amp and maybe 20 bucks for a Playback Designs SACD player. Oh and those custom made cables? They come with the other stuff. Oh shit. Where's my Xanax.

Remember that $10,000 in m1960 would buy over $80,000 today. But I do think casual listening is the order today. Any thing more is difficult to do everywhere with much fidelity and perhaps the distortion of modern music doesn't encourage fidelity.

I have a grandson who is a Junior in college now. He was a drummer in a jazz groups in high school and was listening to Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon. I asked him if he wanted to hear that on my big system. He said yes. 

After listening he said it didn't even sound like what he  was listening, but that drums now sounded much more real. Later he left the room and I saw he went back to MP3.

In short we aren't likely to see a return to earlier audio. But I should say he now has an AR turntable and arm and a Stanton cartridge and a bunch of duplicate LPs I gave him. I've done my best. His mother was an audiophile until kids.

Macrojack.. I'm in Syracuse, NY. now, but born and bred in Brooklyn. Have traveled and lived around the world during my 70+ years as a musician and a Nam vet.. Good Memorial Day to the Vets in this thread. It's good to be Home.

61, 25,(gap from 30 -58) ??
Casual listening !  That's what affects the new audio market  for the Most part - imo

Talking with friends in hi end audio seems to be less & less interest in 2 channel 
Most sales geared to & from home theater 
This is from a very well established audio dealer in a very affluent area 

No interest = no sales. Given the cultural
trend  in music & the ability to download 
today's youth is content with ear buds !

Im not sure that a good stereo system would matter with much of today's music anyway   I have family members come down into my "music room" & listen to what I consider well recorded  LP  / CD . 
Usual reaction is  ok it's nice bye !  They don't want to sit & relax & HEAR the music 

Too bad from our point of view , not their thing    They don't care about soundstage 
imaging etc. 

not it enough younger people to sustain better equipment - imo.  But it can be a positive if factories realize this & try to capture the younger demographic. 
Competitive pricing may be in the future !!

+1 macrojack, very well written post. I concur on all fronts.

I can no longer even see the carrot, and at one point in time, I had several carrots, not too long ago either (8-10 years ago).

As Bob Dylan said: The Times They Are A Changin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7qQ6_RV4VQ

This thread is beginning to sound like Outside. 

I am now 77 with hearing of a 35 year old, some forgetfulness, and the best damn sound I've ever had, basically well beyond anything I thought possible. I think all dealers of anything other than groceries, restaurants are doomed by the internet. Repair and service companies will prosper.

So few audiophiles get to hear a wide variety of audio gear. They can read reviews and see ads, of  course, but they are hardly definitive like hearing it yourself. And postings on the internet never result in any agreement about what is best. I have a circle of friends whose opinions I trust, but most have and ever diminishing opportunity to hear gear.

One thing I entirely agree with is that the used market is vanishing. I think that the major companies must be selling less and less of the market, so few have any listening experience with gear other than their own. This may indicate that innovation tends to be from small companies. I must say that I have not had any large company gear since an ARC Ref II bought years ago. I feel burglar proof as my gear would get anything in a pawnshop.

Finally I doubt if politics has anything to do with any of this. We are too small a part of the market. I know many very sincere individuals who have committed to quality products and most have very limited resources. Thanks, guys, please keep up the good work.

rippet - I'm in Fruita at the westernmost end of the state. It's post card country for sure. Being a long recovered alcoholic, I cannot offer opinions on the beer made here from personal experience so I can;t enter into conversations about specific products. 
We used to live just west of Boulder in 4 Mile Canyon. It was a ghost town, a former mining community that was known locally as Wallstreet. After we left it was devastated by the flood and a forest fire. Oddly, out cabin survived both, I hear.
Where are you?

Another point to consider on the widespread loss of business in audio could have to do with the carrot moving out beyond the vision of the horse. When the cost of the ultimate products was maybe 4 or 5 times what you were buying it was possible to dream - to aspire - to someday move up incrementally to that plateau. Of course, the target kept ahead of us even as we ascended but it remained in sight and we kept playing. Now with the ultimate stuff costing more than our house and cars combined, it isn't even within dream range to think about owning such stuff. 

Then consider a failed economy, potential medical induced bankruptcies, unanticipated forced retirements, student loans, offspring returning to the nest, disabling hearing loss, shifting interests, and despair. All of these effects serve to deplete our numbers. Oh yeah, one more. Death. All are good reasons to change your priorities and I would wager that few, if any, of us can say we know no one to whom one or more of these factors has come into play.

The outlook going forward is dismal. There are a lot of designers such as Rowland, Vandersteen, Pass, Modjeski, Berning, etc. who are aging out. They may continue until death or they may pack it in sooner. Bigger companies might continue on but will they have sufficient support from our ranks to keep them viable? I guess that's for us to say but this thread indicates that few of us will be participating much longer. Just enjoy it while it lasts and be glad for what you have and what you had. Tick tock.