prof Geoff. For someone who so often mentions fallacies, you’d at least have a running start at being coherent if you actually looked them up and understood them. (There are valid appeals to authority, and fallacious appeals to authority - neither of which I indulged in). Go ahead: look up the formal structure of the fallacious version of appeal to authority. Now make yourself a nice bowl of popcorn, and entertain yourself for hours trying to find that form presented in what I wrote. I’m rooting for ya! >>>>How do I know when you’re using an illogical argument? Whenever your mouth moves. Your statements I quoted are ALL appeals to Authority. There’s no such thing as a valid appeal to authority, silly. That’s kind of the whole point. If there was a valid appeal to Authority any yahoo on the internet could claim he wins the debate by simply declaring he was a PhD in Theoretical Physics or he has the support of a PhD or whatever. But that’s not true. It’s not logical. He cannot automatically win the debate by submitting his credentials or those of someone else. That’s why it’s an Appeal to Authority. Capish? Or by declaring he has 40 years of experience in high end systems. It sounds good but it’s an appeal to Authority. Hel-loo! In order to join in the debate, any debate, you must actually construct a technical argument. The appeal to authority relies on an argument of the form: A is an authority on a particular topic. An argument from authority, also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam is a form of defeasible argument in which a claimed authority’s support is used as evidence for an argument’s conclusion.
I hate to judge before all the facts are in but you should probably march yourself right down to your local library and spend some time researching the subject. 😀 A good place to start is, http://www.skepticalaboutskeptics.org/examining-skeptics/daniel-drasin-zen-and-the-art-of-debunkery/By your own words you dabble in philosophy and debate. I do it professionally. 😬 Have a nice day! |
@brianlucey
Interested to hear your thoughts on the Cranesong Solaris and what DAC do you use for monitoring? |
The room is half the sound. One must take that into consideration, otherwise, no equipment is going to sound good in a poor room. |
Geoff. For someone who so often mentions fallacies, you'd at least have a running start at being coherent if you actually looked them up and understood them.
(There are valid appeals to authority, and fallacious appeals to authority - neither of which I indulged in).
Go ahead: look up the formal structure of the fallacious version of appeal to authority.
Now make yourself a nice bowl of popcorn, and entertain yourself for hours trying to find that form presented in what I wrote.
I'm rooting for ya! |
Prof wrote,
being in to high end audio since my teens
having obsessively listened to high end systems of all price brackets for decades
having many friends in the reviewing side and thus constant acquaintance with extremely expensive well regarded gear
having reviewed speakers myself
having had many great speaker systems through my room (from MBL to flagship Thiels to Von Schweikert, Audio Physic and many others...)
having access to high end cables and tweaks,
attending all the audio shows many other audiophiles attend,
having a career in post production sound
almost daily hearing the difference between live vs recorded/reproduction of those sounds,
using my own recordings of my instruments and familiar voices to evaluate speakers and compare to their live sources...
having designed a major reno of my room for great sound in consultation with acousticians
and on and on...
>>>>>Right. And on and on with more Appeals to Authority. Hel-loo! |
geoffkait,
Are you ever going to get a fallacy correct? Your record is thus far perfect! (Hint: no claim to authority was made, no argument via appeal to authority either).
rbstehno,
My reply was largely tongue in cheek, but also with a point.
First, you came in with a strawman "if you can’t hear a difference between a Home Depot cable and a synergistic research cable."
Nowhere did I of course say such a thing, nor did I imply it. In fact I was explicit, when I wrote: "None of that is to proclaim that none of the expensive accessories can make a sonic difference; it’s only to say where I find my own money is best spent."
So I did not claim cables make no sonic difference; only that I have reasons for how I spend the balance off my money and time on speakers/room acoustics.
The point would be that, you combined a strawman with a dig at my hearing acuity (the most common, tired refrain from cable-lovers...along with "or your system sucks.") And you did so without knowing a thing about my hearing acuity or experience in audio, which is just fine for detecting subtle differences, thank you very much.
But that’s ok, I’m sure you have a faaaaar better system than anything I’ve ever encountered and nothing I’ve done in audio could prepare me to hear the obvious differences you speak of, so I will just have to defer to your wisdom.
If only I could trade these cloth ears in somewhere for golden ones. Where did you get yours? ;-)
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Interesting tweak or what I prefer to term, "tuning" last evening. I have been auditioning a new phono stage. It is a FET design and as such has a warmer tubier sound sans tubes in much the same way that conrad johnson's SS preamps did years ago. Very resolving, revealing details that my 25+ year old phono pre never did. The tuning involved footers. I started with two Herbie's soft tenderfeet and two hard tenderfeet. Next I went to four hard tenderfeet. My objective is to eek out as much top end air and detail as possible. The four hard feet were more revealing but what really got me where I wanted to go sonically was removing the Herbie feet and using three #4 Black Diamond racing cones. Voila!! More pluck, cymbal decay and hall sound, with super tight bass and jumping dynamics. Just beautiful.
The OP is "What matters and what is nonsense". That experience matters. I checked the results today and the results were confirmed. Keeping the new gear. Lovely vinyl sound.🎼 |
Over many years and many permutations of my setup, relative cost percentages have changed and sometimes quite radically. I agree the listening room is critical, cost benefit ratio high here.
Some tweaks work, others not. Tweaks with a long track record are more likely to have some value, although effective new ones come along occasionally. Some still consider cabling to be a tweak. Has it not surpassed that characterization, could so many people over so many years be fooled into false belief?In the end I've concluded everything matters, the only difference is the degree it matters to you.
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Prof, what you wrote really doesn't matter much. It's like somebody indicating that are an instant race car driver just because they bought a sports car.
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Appeal to Authority alert! |
@rbstehno Prof, not much I can say if you can’t hear a difference between a Home Depot cable and a synergistic research cable. That’s like saying you can’t hear a difference between a pioneer amp and Classe monoblocks. What can I say? I guess being in to high end audio since my teens, having obsessively listened to high end systems of all price brackets for decades - including having many friends in the reviewing side and thus constant acquaintance with extremely expensive well regarded gear, having reviewed speakers myself, having had many great speaker systems through my room (from MBL to flagship Thiels to Von Schweikert, Audio Physic and many others...) having access to high end cables and tweaks, attending all the audio shows many other audiophiles attend, having a career in post production sound and almost daily hearing the difference between live vs recorded/reproduction of those sounds, using my own recordings of my instruments and familiar voices to evaluate speakers and compare to their live sources...having designed a major reno of my room for great sound in consultation with acousticians, and on and on... ...I guess all this has left me with ears of cloth. I just mustn’t be a sensitive enough listener. Or I have a crap system. I believe those are usually the two choices assigned to anyone who didn’t hear differences in a set of cables. ;-) (Btw, I haven’t compared HD cable to synergistic research cables). |
The OP message, while reasonable and obviously based upon his personal experience is neither universal nor definitive. It is his opinion. Rather than tempering it with a simple "IMO" declaration it reads more like a manifesto. I think it was intended as his own personal mic drop moment. The show is not over just because you dropped the mic.
I too have been in this hobby for over 50 years. I continue to learn, modify preconceptions and remain open to new ideas. No need to draw a line in the sand...but thats just "my opinion". |
The problem that I have with the OP’s premise, as posted, is this; although I agree with some of the specific points that he makes.
First, there is the issue of referring to tweaking as “nonsense”.... no it’s not! Not going to go through the well known list of all the very effective tweaks that are possible when implemented intelligently. That stuff is obvious, and if anyone can’t hear the benefits that’s not my problem; it’s theirs. I don’t think anyone has ever suggested that the benefits of placing a preamp on proper footers are on a par with that of buying much better speakers, but “nonsense”? C’mon now! I know what I hear and why does it bother those that don’t that I do? I am afraid the OP’s “reality” which he wants to educate “today’s hobbyists” about is incomplete and limiting.
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Went for the upgrade that, supposedly, was recommended/designed by Terry London. Can't compare the two because have not heard your version. Suspect most of the speaker's quality is the result of the 7-tweeter array that shares mid-range and treble duties.
Check with Eric about upgrade possibilities; the folks on the Tekton thread are knowledgeable about custom work and KDude66 is very helpful. |
Craig.
Did you buy the base model or did you go with the upgrade to Cardas posts and internal wiring ?
Just curious as just gone for base but assume I could change to upgrade package if I needed to
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If one point of the original post is, one does not need to mortgage the house for excellent sound, couldn't agree more. Changing up listing rooms can achieve the results of spending thousands, to be sure and is great advice. (And hope that people with real money problems can get the appropriate help.) But...
Enjoying the music AND the equipment are not mutually exclusive. In fact I get great pleasure out of trying to match the recording with a playback system, including the room. (Yes, I have many, probably like others)
If this means listening on a Victrola, so be it. Talk about a pure signal: no wires, no amps and a 5 cent needle. Below average playback systems can hide some poorly made recording. That's ok.
One trend is clear. It costs less and less every year to obtain, "great sound." (And some, "good sound" for a mere pittance) The era of engaging sonic technologies for the masses is upon us. |
Congrats, UBW
Have had my pair for over a year and they please every time they speak. You will not be disappointed. What convinced me to purchase was the uniform positive response from ACTUAL owners on all threads. Trust the owners and their honest response. |
Most interesting thread that I have read but refrained from posting to.
I am pleasantly surprised at how civil it has remained with some very good posts.
I can agree with a lot of the original post but not quite all....lol.
No matter what I have found different ic,pc and sc have a large impact on tone in my system for sure.
Now this may point as much to failings in my system and I will not argue that point at all.
After all if we are being honest who can claim to have THE perfect system where they can improve no further?
If any individuals have been lucky enough to achieve this Zen like status then God bless you as you have surely managed to step off this crazy and eclectic merry go round of a hobby we share!
But for the remaining mere mortals left on planet Earth we are by human nature always striving to find the next improvement.
Some achieve by "tweaks", some by spending large, some by "tuning".
All have the same goal....to enjoy the music!
To that end after months of reading reviews I have just placed my order for Tekton Di speakers. In Red. Sans grilles.
$3075.
If they deliver half of their promise I will be a happy man indeed! |
@aalenik There are a group of music and system appreciators "sit on the fence" until they can see benefit or proof that the act of that tweaking (not twerking), or that the product (if it even is a product) is worth the price tag. Note I called a group "music and system appreciators" rather than audiophiles. Not all music lovers are audiophiles per se'. Some like music very much, and as such spend the appropriate money on the system that satisfies their need. Indeed they love live music and seek to see that their system plays this out, to a point. Free tweaks are always appreciated though. Audiophiles go all out to acquire the system that best reproduces a sound that is closest to live music. What ever the cost is some cases. These people are the ones who appreciate tweaks, go out and afford to themselves inch thick speaker cables, gauge to the 1/2 degree, toe in or out of speakers. These people expect to attain the best reproduced sound, through hardware, source accuracy, reproduction accuracy and tweaks to get even more from their system. Some will pay big dollars for it if it has been represented correctly. Some will blow hard of tweaks to gain legitimacy in a forum. I am admittedly from the appreciator group. I know I simply cannot afford the big stuff. But free tweaks I can appreciate. Advice on how to set a room up by moving things around (wife's permission is mandatory) is a great tweak. I like live music, and appreciate my system to represent as closely as I can afford, the music my wife and I enjoy. Cheers. A.
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Geoffkait wrote... "it appears the most vociferous, outspoken and persistent skeptics and anti tweakers are the very same ones who frequently report getting no results" BINGO! And those people have a point - sort of. They don't hear results, so they should not waste their time or money. The common mistake is in assuming that others hear exactly what they do... which is (sorry) stupid, and trying to pass on the(ir) "truth" to the rest of us. There is also another group of virulent nay-sayers who have not even listened, and just 'know' that everything with a price-tag is 'snake-oil' and 'audio jewelry'... and need to tell the world. |
+1 phomchick Another downside...we all have that "purchase a new box" urge. Those that have gone the Lyngdorf way are both smug and lonely at the same time... |
+1 with both @craigl59
and @barrarich
Class D amplifiers, DACs, and DSP processing are all high enough quality and cheap enough that the following high end stereo system should be just around the corner.
It will have WiFi connectivity to something like JRiver or Roon and this will feed the high quality internal DAC. It will be controlled remotely by an app on your cellphone. The speakers will have multiple drivers with each driver having its own Class-D driving amp. The output of the DAC will go into a multi-channel DSP circuit which will have a channel for each speaker driver.
The system will ship with a measurement microphone which will be used to measure the frequency and phase response at the listening position. Using software embedded in the system, the DSP channels will be optimized for each driver in each speaker. Such a system would probably work best with two smaller satellite speakers and a servo controlled subwoofer.
The technology now exists to build this and end up with a very high quality system. The downside is that you won’t be able to obsess about preamps, amplifiers, interconnects or speaker cables, but such is progress.
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I primarily agree with Geoffkait. One never knows if a tweak will render a huge, minor or no difference in the sound quality, positive or negative. I find that the acoustics of a room is 50% of the sound quality. A big percentage. I was able to use Synergistic Research HFT system to remove all types of room treatments except for my Hallographs to greatly improve the sound of my system from adjusting room acoustics.
As to speakers, there are many fine ones out there and I chose the most cost effective ones for now which provide me with excellence in many facets, yet not the finest (or expensive) in any category. Not necessarily easy to drive as they have low impedences with high efficiency. I'm satisfied not spending $50K (Einstein, VR55K VS or Lumenwhite) to get 15% lesser performance at $2500 (Legacy Focuses used), although I am saving up to purchase one of those three in the near future (had the Focuses for 18 years). It took more effort to find a great pre-amp than speakers or amps. High[end quality pre-amps are really difficult to engineer well. The best ones I've heard are $10K+ (e,g, EAR 912) while some high priced ones are awful (e.g. Ypsilon).
As to cabling, I tried many cables but stick with a high end, moderate cost brand GroverHuffman cables. I've tried cheap Monster Cable ICs for poorer friends systems on my system (300s, earliest model of 3 300 types is best,usually $10/m on ebay) which were musically acceptable although rolled off the frequency extremes and were not great at retrieving detail. I also heard High Fidelity and Transparent Audio cables many times and thoroughly reject them in favor of Monster Cable 300s. Another inexpensive but really fine phono cable is a very low capacitance, silver coated 26 gauge copper solid core cable bought in bulk. Beautiful sounding at $40, my friend uses it instead of my $450 phono cables. So, the right choice of inexpensive cabling can work musically/sonically. As to using low cost, lower quality cables on a high end speaker/amp/pre-amp system, why sacrifice sound quality if one can afford much better cabling?
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+1 barrarich
Agree completely with your emphasis on room control and the changes from the new computer reality. Have described several times on Audiogon my belief that soon there will be only one box and it will include a media server, open-ended preamp with room correction (= accepts plug-ins), class D amp and as much memory as appropriate. All currently exists, it's just a question of some company making the business model and copyrights work out. |
I have been trained as a classical musician (gave up going to music school for Physics), been an audiophile for 50 years (sometimes I refer to myself as an "audioidiot" - kindly) and also owned one of the larger hi-end audio and video dealerships in the country for about 20 years.
Now I have been retired from the A/V business for 8 years, but the audiophile part will never go away. Nor do I want it to go away.
I learned a lot about the current topic in my interaction with customers of all types and budgets (from a few thousand dollars to a few million dollars). I think that …….
There are three types of people when it comes to music:
The gearheads: those who love the equipment above all else.
The true music lovers - the lucky ones. They can break into joyful tears when they hear a magnificent performance over a $1,000 system.
The folks who are both. They love music and they also love the pursuit of audio reproduction.
We all, sort of, fit into one or the other of the categories. And there is no reason to criticize people who share different goals than do we. And different budgets as well.
Being "in the business" for 2 decades and having only modest budgetary constraints has given me the opportunity to try pretty much everything that there is to try - for the last 40 years. My audio system has often seemed like a revolving door.
And the lesson that I think I have learned is that "what matters" in reproduction changes every decade or so. (I am not going to address the quality of the music recordings issue - it is well covered already). And knowing a bit about where we all come from lends great insight into what matters most to many audiophiles.
In the early years (70s and 80s) it most certainly was all about the equipment. All of it, and many of us built our own speakers since we could do things that the manufacturers could not build and sell in a nascent market.
In the following decades the industry blossomed with an increase in audio lovers and an increase in wealth in the country. The high-end business matured into a competitive race for the highest quality gear possible. And it often seems (as usually was) that the more money you spent, the better the end result.
The early part of the 21st century has brought on the ability to have a good system for a fraction of what used to be required. And to have, for a larger sum, a system that is better than previously possible.
And this decade has finally introduced the power of processing (that finally actually works) into our systems. And what a difference that can make! I was an early adopter of some of the miniDSP gear and used it to good effect in numerous systems.
So enough about history: what have I learned? As the third type of person - audiophile AND music lover, I believe the following to be true:
First: get your room right as best as it can be done! Go for symmetry and use appropriate acoustic materials (are these tweaks?) where they belong. Diffusors and absorbers. The electronics now available can help resolve many of the faults in your room, but they cannot, even the most expensive units, completely eliminate the problems presented by your listening space. So if you can get "permission" to do some acoustic modifications in your room - do them first. Electronics do NOT change the principles of acoustic engineering. Second: pick your processing. There are a few good choices, from the modest miniDSP to the current state-of-the-art in the Trinnov Altitude and its "pro gear" siblings. These units that deal with the "psychoacoustics" of timing/amplitude/phase are changing everything and will continue to change everything. And more gear will continue to bleed into the audio market from the professional recording domain. This is the stuff that is used to produce the recordings, and it is only to be expected that it should be part of the reproduction chain as well. Third: look at your overall budget. None of us have completely unlimited resources to drive into audio gear, but take what you have and apportion it out wisely. This often does mean that the key ingredient in the mix is your choice of speakers. This determines the dispersion patterns in your room as well as the power requirements for proper dynamics. Next: FIND DOMEBODY THAT YOU CAN TRUST that has tried the rest of the gear you contemplate purchasing. The choices are so complex. This includes the "tweaks".
So, do your choices of speaker cables, analog and digital interconnects, preamps, amplifiers, power cords, racks/isolators, grounding cables/systems, etc. matter. Yes they do! Perhaps a bit less than before the computer processing/software that has emerged. But they still DO make a difference. Especially in the more discriminating systems where small changes can have a significant effect on the ability of a system to reflect reality. The trick is to discern which of these "tweaks" is important for YOUR system. And not to be concerned with what makes a difference in somebody else's system. We can learn from each other without criticizing. There is always someone with more experience and knowledge. Tap that experience and knowledge.
I have met quite a few interesting audiophiles through Audiogon over the years. They have learned from me, and I have also learned from them. And this accumulation of "audio buddies" is what makes the sport of high-end audio really satisfying.
And I am always happy to talk "audio talk".
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"Having said all that, obviously you don’t have to look around too hard to find some poor guy somewhere who complains he can’t hear it, whatever the device in question is. We already know that." EXACTLY! And, in my book: what DOESN’T, "matter", is what SOME consider, "nonsense".
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For me and my systems, "tweaks" are improvements such as Herbie's Loudpeaker Feet. These were recommended on the Double Impact thread and I ordered them with trepidation because they were about $65 a speaker and the design improvement was not clear at first. Turns out they work splendidly with the Tektons and are well worth the minor investment -- the speakers stay rock steady over time and the subtle cushioning improves bass response, soundstage, and security. Have had my share of non-working tweaks and can only say that I will spend relatively little on an untrusted, untested, or non-reviewed addition. Spend time on Audiogon and other sites to benefit from user comments on these kinds of threads. Believe you get the best information from users/owners who describe their experiences devoid of special interest or economic motives. The cable issue stopped being a concern for me when I discovered Blue Jeans Cable 7 years ago and started using their custom builds for studio and home setups. Check out Gearslutz for studio advice on cables. The standard used to be Monster mic cables but these have been replaced by Belden 1800f ones. Blue Jeans makes custom lengths and connectors so you avoid excess length and adaptors. Like bstbomber above, am a lifelong musician with studio and audiophile setups. Move equipment back and forth between the two and have found that professional studio equipment always sounds good in audiophile settings but the reverse is not always the case. |
+1, shadorne
It is truly sad of the mark-ups of audio tweaks. You see so much stuff out there that is so outrageously priced. I guess the magical claims by the designers of these tweaks make this stuff worth hundreds or thousands, at least in their minds. I know a speaker designer who would order heavy gold plated binding posts for all of his speakers. He paid the vendor a dollar a pair, considering the fact he ordered thousands of these. When that vendor found out he was using them in high end audio applications, he immediately raised the bulk price to five dollars per pair. |
I agree that room dynamics and speaker placement are crucial, but for me, I think Elizabeth is more on the ball. I've only been at this for about a year now (although I've probably crammed in 3-4 years of research), and I find that the front end is every bit as important as the final output. I operate at a lower cost level than Elizabeth, but if the front end components are all well-researched and well-matched, they can make a lot of different speakers sound very, very good. I was amazed at what my growing set-up was doing for the sound of my vinyl, but it wasn't until I got my MF Dac that I actually considered getting out of vinyl. Having said that, I think I'll hang on the Thorens and GSP reflex M, as they are not a huge outlay for quality of sound they produce.
And it's too bad that some of the recordings are so poor. I'd probably have to find some way of including some tone controls in the system if I ever want to listen to some of my older vinyl and CDs. |
Before I started reading Audiogon, I was not a tweaker. Since, I have made many
tweaks and modifications to my system.
At this point I’m confused as to whether all the thousands of dollars spent were worth the investment. Each tweak seems to breed a new one.
I think I was happier before I started!?! There is so much misinformation here. It is a minefield. Fuses for $100’s, contact paste for connections 100x more than toothpaste, interconnects and cables for $2,000+ ... it is all nonsense. The mark ups are outrageous. It is insulting to most decent honest folks trying to make real audio components that actually do something. Of course, component manufacturers are careful not to draw attention to this nonsense because they know that half a dealers sales profit can come from silly senseless audio jewelry trinkets that do nothing but soothe audiophile egos and separate fools from their money. |
This is a Great Article.
I have been a Musician for over 50 Years.
I have Recorded in several Hi End Studios and still play live.
I worked for ADS Speaker Co, sold Hi Fi in a retail shop and repaired musical instrument Electronics.
From my learning I was led to believe all Hi Fi is The Reproduction of Music where Recoding is The Production of Music.
They are two different Electronic Standards.
The above article is right on.
Besides budget In Selecting Products its all about your ears and what they know and your personal taste.
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Amg56
. Guess you missed the point. I did my test with the intention of hearing the entirety of my family of upgrades removed to judge the overall effectiveness of the lot of them. It was more than a bit biased by expectation I suppose, but did show me what the entire group of upgrades summed up to.
Maybe calling bs was a bit hasty, no?
you assume I was looking to the stripped down system in the hopes of it being a permanent change. No. Just a bit of education. And a chance to play with my toys.
i stand by the results, though I have only a non-audiophile friend to confirm them.
I still can’t grasp why a number of forum members feel they should try to save the rest from what they consider unworthy. No one stole my money and left a bi-wire set in its place. |
Cable's, amplifiers, source, pre-amp, speaker's!, very good speaker's will yield everything up stream without spending thousand's of dollar's on speaker's! |
Good topic by the OP and an unusually civil discussion! Thanks to all of you for that I agree with the OP on many points, but let me add a few on what I've found matters most (at least, to me)... 1. Recording quality (regardless of format) is essential. A poor recording will never sound as well as a good one, in any system, in any room. (Please copy, Michael Greene...) 2. Speakers do the most to create the 'sound' of your system. But synergy of spkrs. and amp is CRUCIAL for optimum performance. 3. A good room makes a huge difference. The less tuning or DSP necessary, the better. But if you have problems, DO tune or use DSP to improve the room acoustics. Even in the best room, bad spkr. placement will kill the sound, so start with that. 4. The more revealing your system is (and your ears are), the more cables make a difference. And yes, some cables do seem to cost ridiculous amounts of cash for 'wires'. But my experience is that once you've built a nice system, the right interconnects, A/C cords and (to a lesser extent) spkr. cables can take it from 'nice' to 'extraordinary'. Is that sonic improvement - and the emotional payoff when you listen - worth paying more than you THINK they should cost? That's YOUR call... 5. Price is not always commensurate with quality... but (sigh) it often is. I've always sought out 'bargain' components (and cables) that provide great sound, and often found them. (My spkrs. and amp both perform FAR above their pay-grade.) Other times, you just have to pay to get the best stuff. But remember that great sound CAN be had at a bargain, and that throwing a bunch of $$ into your gear w/out considering system synergy can be an enormous waste. I hope this is helpful. Thanks for reading, and... HAPPY LISTENING!
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Room acoustics Uber Alles.
A good room can make a wide range of speakers sound excellent. A poor room will severely limit you, and force your hand.
DSP is great, but it's benefits are magnified with good room acoustics.
Most pros I know, recommend room acoustics first, then DSP/EQ.
Best,
E |
leonardcooper
Wow, you really are an old fart! Guess that makes me a middle aged old fart. You and your Dad were in the golden age of audio back then. That to me, is fascinating! |
Before I started reading Audiogon, I was not a tweaker. Since, I have made many tweaks and modifications to my system.
At this point I’m confused as to whether all the thousands of dollars spent were worth the investment. Each tweak seems to breed a new one.
I think I was happier before I started!?! |
Excellent thread. Thanks to "phomchick" for kicking things off. These responses have been most interesting. Start with a nicely engineered recording, add a nice (subjective) well positioned (not subjective) speaker system, address room problems as much as possible, and the music/movie lover is well on the way to an enjoyable experience. Eventually however we run into the topic of interconnects (power cords, HDMI, network, speaker wire, etc.) knowing that cost vs. performance reaches a point of diminishing return in any given system. But here's an interesting factoid. Live demonstrations by companies like Audio Quest and Nordost will often use modestly priced components, (speakers, amplification, and source devices) in their demonstrations. It's also surprising how AC noise filtration, by the likes of companies like SurgeX, can improve the listening experience. Some will argue that, if these previously mentioned priorities are addressed,cabling should be considered as another component in your system. Fortunately many dealers will also allow the end user to take such items home for audition to determine if the changes warrant the investment. |
Better to be tweaking than twerking...
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I am a on-off audiophile....I really agree with the original post. As a musician/drummer who has spent my entire working career as a professional musician and/or in the sales manufacturing side of the industry....its really all about the music, how it was recorded and your personal room acoustics. yes you need some good playback gear but there really is a point of no return....spend your money on your room and speakers then amp then source then cables. |
Well, back in the 1950's I was building mono tube amps and FM tuners with my Dad. Since then the hobby has come a long way. There is a lot to be said and most of it has been, tweakers and non. Tweaking is important as far as the room is concerned and gawd I spend time doing that, but in my opinion (and it ain't humble) you need a good source and good speakers. I listen to vinyl and will spend a lot of money ($17K) on a cartridge and TT to help it track. If that Porsche had crappy tires it wouldn't stay on the road right. If I have a cheap TT and cart I'm not in the track right. Speakers next, then electronics to match the speakers and sources. $2000 cables are a waste. Simple.
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amg56
However I absolutely agree that an unpredictable change may produce a large influence in the way we appreciate the sound (in this forum’s case) of audio/music. That in essence is what tweaks in this forum are about. And it is my hope that readers and writers in this forum will share them with explanation.
>>>That’s not what I’m saying really. Look, tweaks, tweaks of all kinds, by and large are a known quantity, maybe not to you specifically, but to most audiophiles who, if they have not actually bought them have at least read about them. A tweak is something that improves the sound. It is or should be predictable. It should also be verifiable. It should be repeatable. They should be reproducible. In this regard tweaks should be treated scienfically just like components or cables. I.e., a Black Box. Since we’re interested in the effect on sound quality of the Black Box, we shouldn’t prejudge the thing before all the test results are in.
Having said all that, obviously you don’t have to look around too hard to find some poor guy somewhere who complains he can’t hear it, whatever the device in question is. We already know that.
As far as explanation of tweaks go, as I’ve said on previous occasions, ‘tis probably best in certain cases for manufactures not (rpt not) to provide explanations, or hazard an explanation, for their tweaks as it can oft come to no good, leading to lots of accusations uncontrolled tongue wagging. Besides, contrary to popular opinion, Audiogon is not intended to be a forum for peer review. Sorry to shatter any of your illusions or hopes for the future.
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I don’t want to start a fight or anything but I think I have just solved a big mystery. I don’t wish to jump to conclusions too hastily but it appears the most vociferous, outspoken and persistent skeptics and anti tweakers are the very same ones who frequently report getting no results with the audiophile tweaks and devices under discussion, whether it’s vibration isolation, fuses, cables, what have you. Problem solved!
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Nice post but I don't believe a bit of it. If you liked the way your setup sounded why would you change it, given your last comment: "Do enjoy you system however you want, but don’t tell me what I do and do not get results from.
Because you don’t have any way of knowing." Your post read like a clear window - you could see right through it. |
Not sure what happened there...iPad freaked
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Inspirational!
i was so moved by the anti tweak commentary, I spent three hours taking my system back to factory default (as much as I could, wasn’t going to pull the mods out of the phono pre). RadioShack ic’s and zipcord went in though. .rega back to all factory set up etc.
results: cheap ic’s Suck. Zip cord even worse. TT mods make a world of difference. Isolation and anti vibration measures are essential. Soundstage had collapsed, timbre went out the window.
Vocal Presence...fuggeddaboudit
so it begs the question what is a tweak? What is a upgrade?
and why do we doubt our ears? Psycho-acoustics is the measure. Hearing is unavoidably subjective. So what you think you hear...you hear. Do enjoy you system however you want, but don’t tell me what I do and do not get results from.
Because you don’t have any way of knowing.
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Inspirational!
i was so moved by the anti tweak commentary, I spent three hours taking my system back to factory default (as much as I could, wasn’t going to pull the mods out of the phono pre). RadioShack ic’s and zipcord went in though. .rega back to all factory set up etc.
results: cheap ic’s Suck. Zip cord even worse. TT mods make a world of difference. Isolation and anti vibration measures are essential. Soundstage had collapsed, timbre went out the window.
Vocal Presence...fuggeddaboudit
so it begs the question what is a tweak? What is a upgrade?
and why do we doubt our ears? Psycho-acoustics is the measure. Hearing is unavoidably subjective. So what you think you hear...you hear. Do enjoy you system however you want, but don’t tell me what I do and do not get results from.
Because you don’t have any way of knowing.
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Great topic.
44.1 is enough, I use it daily. The AD converter matters far more, as does the engineering. It's not about sample rate.
What matters to us reflects where we are on the hearing scale vs. where we are in the room. Our listening evolves, and our needs change. We only need what we need when we hear that we need it. Mental lists are not the way forward. Just live with your room and let it talk to you.
Playback acoustics are undervalued most IMO.
Interesting side note on pre amp expenses: I just tried the BAT vk-43se (good) and the Boulder 1010 (not good), and yet neither was as good as the Crane Song Avocet, that was $1900 15 years ago.
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@ronres
+1
The OP has certainly some very strong opinions...and those he is entitled to. OTOH, Ron is 100% correct IMHO ( notice how I use the IMHO --in my humble opinion, something that the OP would do well to sprinkle around in his post....again IMHO, LOL)
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I think the attitude exhibited by the author of the opening post is arrogant and condescending and close-minded. But he is very well aware of that.
I would have expected that 50 years of time in this hobby would have produced more questions and circumspection, and less dogma and certainty. But this opening post proves once again that age is not highly correlated with wisdom.
He certainly is entitled to his subjective, personal opinion, as are we all. I respect his personal opinion. At the highest level of audio reproduction he likely has experienced I might also have arrived at those incorrect conclusions. (Though I certainly would not proffer them as immutable facts.)
His utter dismissal of analog recording and reproduction, and his “assumption” of digital recording and reproduction, informs me that whatever audio hobby he thinks he is engaged in, he in not engaged in the hobby of high-end audio. His opinions evidence a lack of experience with the best the hobby of high-end audio can produce.
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