What Matters and What is Nonsense

Those were the days, my friend, I thought they’d never end. Fortunately they did end. 😀

Engineering School. Mechanical Aero Dept. I was in the very first class of Aerospace Engineers following Kennedy’s speech about the brand new Space Program.

I went to elementary school, then high school, then prep school modeled after English boys schools with forms. Then off to the University, but not “college,” Tool school. College was for English majors and history majors. 

I heard you the first time. We’re stupid, not deaf. 

Try to keep politics out of the discussion. Why so angry? 😡 

Big cheapskate? A 50 grand system hardly qualifies you as a cheapskate. What it does qualify you as is penny wise and pound foolish. The first step is believe in power cords. The next step is believe in directionality of power cords. I know you can do it. Baby steps. 

Real audiophiles know Hospital grade is below Audiophile grade. 

Are you posting high again, jitter? Bad jitter! Bad!

Pop Quiz

How small can something be and still matter? 

I will say fuse and get that out of the way. 🙄 What else?

There has never been an audiophile tweak that was found to be a hoax or a fraud. Obviously there have been some preposterous ones, I won’t hot dog you about that. We already know blinding testing is not going to reveal the hoaxes. Nor is science or medicine or mathematics. Why? Because many audiophile tweaks are out of reach as it were of textbook explanations. Thus it’s becoming more and more difficult to figure out just what the heck laws of science have been broken here OR how to measure it. Here are some examples of what I’m talking about. Silver Rainbow Foil, the Tice Clock, Ultra Tweeters, fuse directionality, The Teleportation Tweak, Mpingo disc, Marigo Dots, demagetizing CDs, demagnetizing LPs, isolating solid state amps, the Red X Pen, Morphic Message Foils, the Original Intelligent Chip.

prof

geoff,

Simply repeating "yes you ARE being fallacious!"....is not an argument establishing that conclusion.

>>>>I know you are but what am I? If you can’t figure it out by now this conversation can serve no purpose any more, professor. This is a study in the lecturee - that would be you - believing or trying to pretend he’s the lecturer. 🤡 Wake up and smell the coffee! ☕️

I’m beginning to see why you took Michael Green’s post so personally. 😀

I don’t mind repeating myself, prof - everything in your post to rbtstehno was fallacious. You are, for whatever set of reasons, not exactly clued in to the whole illogical argument thing. You obviously think you are. But hey, it makes for interesting discussion. I dunno why you would attack me or my web site. For one thing that’s another fallacious argument, argumentum ad hominem. “God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason.” - Judge Judy

prof
Geoff. For someone who so often mentions fallacies, you’d at least have a running start at being coherent if you actually looked them up and understood them.

(There are valid appeals to authority, and fallacious appeals to authority - neither of which I indulged in).

Go ahead: look up the formal structure of the fallacious version of appeal to authority.

Now make yourself a nice bowl of popcorn, and entertain yourself for hours trying to find that form presented in what I wrote.

I’m rooting for ya!

>>>>How do I know when you’re using an illogical argument? Whenever your mouth moves. Your statements I quoted are ALL appeals to Authority. There’s no such thing as a valid appeal to authority, silly. That’s kind of the whole point. If there was a valid appeal to Authority any yahoo on the internet could claim he wins the debate by simply declaring he was a PhD in Theoretical Physics or he has the support of a PhD or whatever. But that’s not true. It’s not logical. He cannot automatically win the debate by submitting his credentials or those of someone else. That’s why it’s an Appeal to Authority. Capish? Or by declaring he has 40 years of experience in high end systems. It sounds good but it’s an appeal to Authority. Hel-loo! In order to join in the debate, any debate, you must actually construct a technical argument.

The appeal to authority relies on an argument of the form: A is an authority on a particular topic. An argument from authority, also called an appeal to authority, or argumentum ad verecundiam is a form of defeasible argument in which a claimed authority’s support is used as evidence for an argument’s conclusion.

I hate to judge before all the facts are in but you should probably march yourself right down to your local library and spend some time researching the subject. 😀 A good place to start is,

http://www.skepticalaboutskeptics.org/examining-skeptics/daniel-drasin-zen-and-the-art-of-debunkery/

By your own words you dabble in philosophy and debate. I do it professionally. 😬

Have a nice day!

Prof wrote,

being in to high end audio since my teens

having obsessively listened to high end systems of all price brackets for decades

having many friends in the reviewing side and thus constant acquaintance with extremely expensive well regarded gear

having reviewed speakers myself

having had many great speaker systems through my room (from MBL to flagship Thiels to Von Schweikert, Audio Physic and many others...)

having access to high end cables and tweaks,

attending all the audio shows many other audiophiles attend,

having a career in post production sound

almost daily hearing the difference between live vs recorded/reproduction of those sounds,

using my own recordings of my instruments and familiar voices to evaluate speakers and compare to their live sources...

having designed a major reno of my room for great sound in consultation with acousticians

and on and on...

>>>>>Right. And on and on with more Appeals to Authority. Hel-loo!

Appeal to Authority alert! 

amg56
However I absolutely agree that an unpredictable change may produce a large influence in the way we appreciate the sound (in this forum’s case) of audio/music. That in essence is what tweaks in this forum are about. And it is my hope that readers and writers in this forum will share them with explanation.

>>>That’s not what I’m saying really. Look, tweaks, tweaks of all kinds, by and large are a known quantity, maybe not to you specifically, but to most audiophiles who, if they have not actually bought them have at least read about them. A tweak is something that improves the sound. It is or should be predictable. It should also be verifiable. It should be repeatable. They should be reproducible. In this regard tweaks should be treated scienfically just like components or cables. I.e., a Black Box. Since we’re interested in the effect on sound quality of the Black Box, we shouldn’t prejudge the thing before all the test results are in.

Having said all that, obviously you don’t have to look around too hard to find some poor guy somewhere who complains he can’t hear it, whatever the device in question is. We already know that.

As far as explanation of tweaks go, as I’ve said on previous occasions, ‘tis probably best in certain cases for manufactures not (rpt not) to provide explanations, or hazard an explanation, for their tweaks as it can oft come to no good, leading to lots of accusations uncontrolled tongue wagging. Besides, contrary to popular opinion, Audiogon is not intended to be a forum for peer review. Sorry to shatter any of your illusions or hopes for the future. 

I don’t want to start a fight or anything but I think I have just solved a big mystery. I don’t wish to jump to conclusions too hastily but it appears the most vociferous, outspoken and persistent skeptics and anti tweakers are the very same ones who frequently report getting no results with the audiophile tweaks and devices under discussion, whether it’s vibration isolation, fuses, cables, what have you. Problem solved!

amg56
I actually disagree that the introduction of a component that "structurally" changed the system you have is a "tweak". The Urban Dictionary defines tweaks "Tweak- to touch something up, fiddle with the finishing touches or make tiny little changes".

Additions of cables or regenerators or major room adjustments are not tweaks. These are major changes to the essence of the "HiFi" setup you have.

Moving a speaker a degree toe in, or a small adjustment to the stylus etc are to me tweaks. To me, major physical changes aren’t tweaks.

>>>>Not sure I go along with your detective work. Since when is The Urban Dictionary a reliable reference source for technical or audiophile jargon? The boundary line line between “major changes” and “tweaks” in this hobby has become rather blurred, you know, what with tiny little bowls, artificial atoms, fancy fuses, power cords that are controlled for directionality, vibration isolation, cryogenics, Graphene infused contact enhancers, and so on. When it comes to INFLUENCING THE SOUND it’s often unpredictable what sort of change to the system will produce the largest degree of change. A major component or physical change or some innocuous looking tweak. One should probably strive to keep an open mind these days.

glupson
geoffkait,

Do not worry yourself. The title of this thread was What matters and what is nonsense. It is good to remind ourselves from time to time of real perspective. Thank you for providing us with an opportunity.

>>>>No, thank you, gloopson. Thank you for being my link to reality.

So, I guess I’m the bad guy here, huh? 

Half of a wit’s end, anyway. 

You welcome for answer, gloopson.

Who is your Daddy and what does he do?

I only snort oregano. I was actually unaware you could put it on food. 

Ouch! Gloopson strikes again!

phomchick OP
As a principle applied to our weird audiophile hobby this can’t do much harm, other than part people from their money. But in the real world, some things are true and some things are false, and it makes a difference.

exacto mundo! Only quote facts. 😀

tattooedtrackman
Bottom line. If it is not nonsense to you and you believe in it that is what counts. No matter what anyone says or thinks it is still your opinion and your ears and money. There will be thousands of opinions but the only one that really matters is yours. Case closed.

Well, not sure I go along with your detective work there. Just because someone believes something doesn’t mean it’s not nonsense. That’s why we have debates. To convince the other guy what he believes is nonsense. That’s what makes audio forums go around and around. 🎠

prof
On tweaking, I had a lot of fun constructing an isolation base for my new turntable. It was valuable learning from others, and from my own efforts along the way. So I certainly don’t consider my turntable base nonsense or a waste of time. Though, if asked what it has actually achieved in terms of it’s effects, I can say it has measurably isolated the turntable from external vibration like footsteps very well. But I couldn’t lay claim to it’s sonic effects beyond that, if there have been any at all. But, hey, that’s ok, I’m not making any claims, and I had a good time!

How totally bizarre! Why would anyone go through all that trouble and not hear the results? I’m afraid something’s terribly wrong somewhere. Could be what, operator error? 🙄

Well spoken, gloopson. Although in truth your snarkiness quotient has been slowly creeping up.

“If it doesn’t squeak it’s not music.”

No preamp here, either. No power cords, no interconnects, no speaker cables, no fuses, no big honking transformers. They all degrade the sound. Hel-loo!

Phomchick,

RE DSD recordings and dynamic range:

You are correct, sir! Check out the dynamic range in the vinyl. Whoa!

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Michael+tilson+Thomas&album=

Who cares? They overly compress everything anyway. First it was only CDs, now it’s CDs, LPs, SACDs, Hi Res Downloads, even those Japanese SHM CDs and SACDs are way over-compressed. Give me a break!