What is the “World’s Best Cartridge”?

It seems my effort at being emollient backfired. I'll bow out.

Dear @dogberry  : Sorry that in some way or the other some of my posts " showed " that I want " lead " and that's not exactly my whole attitude but perhaps only the " way " I post but not my " meaning ".

Btw, the ones that know said these talking of Studer:

 

" 

Studer is a Swiss manufacturer of professional audio equipment, founded in Zurich in 1948 by Willi Studer. It is known primarily for the design and manufacture of analog tape recorders and mixing consoles. Studer also produce other technology solutions, such as telephony management systems and radio broadcast studio equipment. Studer originated the consumer brand Revox, but sold the group to private investors in 1990.

Studer's analog tape recorders are widely considered to be the best in world by Audio engineers due to their excellent reliability and sound quality. The company has built a variety of two-track recorder models throughout its history for stereo recording and mixing.  ""

 

R.

 

Exactly, @rauliruegas , we cannot impose our experience on others. Having read a lot of your input in other threads, I respect your experience, and I'm grateful to read about it. Even so, all of the wonderful things you and I have heard from cartridges of so many kinds might not work for others, We may offer a guiding light, but we cannot lead anyone else safely to harbour.

@mglik  : I suggested too that own other tonearm as an alternative. Maybe here too you could find out a nice and new experiences with.

R.

t9, nothing but more bs coming from your cs. Futile and useless. Pity.

Dear @dogberry  : " And really, can anyone say they know what is best in anyone else's world? "

 

No one can because is something personal/subjective. What we all can is to give opinions/advise on some diffderent audio items in other audiophile room/system as alternatives bt at the end the system owner has the privilege to goes with its own decision.

R.

@rauliruegas "that was a stupid " statement " just to hit some one"

Sorry, I forgot that you are the only one allowed to mention someone else’s error.

 

Dear @mglik  : " But the Lino seems like it may be something very special? "

That's for sure and especially because you already own that  Atlas SL but it will does a good job with your Grado too and at his asking price could be a " bargain " for its high quality level performance.

 

It could be a different experience for you due what you own today.

 

R.

 

Dear @terry9  : " into Raul’s error.."

 

that was a stupid " statement " just to hit some one. Bad for you.

 

Do you know which was/is the main difference between Newton and you? No, it's not that , it's only common sense.

 

Enjoy your self.

 

R.

Dear @atmasphere ​@mikelavigne : I think that you that are an experienced gentleman are losting the overall R2 subject and seen not the forest but only one tree.

 

Look, when I posted on the Studer behavior I started my post saying :

 

"" There are several problems with R2R units.....""

 

Specs are only a " tree ", print-out, speed stability, quality of the magnetic tape, magnetic lost its characteristics over time and tapes could develops ( even from new. ) " drops ", it needs eq., adds noise to the signal and more important what’s recorded on the tape are not zeros and ones that are totally immunes to all those R2R drawbacks for analog signal along that studio digital recorder has different design oriented for digital.

 

In the other side and talking of that specs " tree " in those old times the Studer R2R mike owns were not designed for home use by audiophiles but to be used by recording studios and Studer was not the only R2R with the quality levels for that kind of job because were deep quality competition with true challenges for every R2R manufacture. So the specs Studer gaves to the recording studios were the best they achieved on those times to competes against other manufacturer machines. That was the overall context on that Studer issue.

Ralph, I appreciated that this time you posted with a good attitude and not trying to hit me and that’s why I give my answer.

Probably those mike’s Studer performs a little better but even that is not a today reference and cant compete in any room/system with what I posted: reference is the digital medium other than live MUSIC.

 

I gave evidences about as the D2D LP recordings against the same LP recorded in the same session trhough R2R: nigth and day difference and we have to remember the " today " MoFi controversy in his one step recordings.

 

Not even you can be against those kind of evidences and I know you are not.

Obviously that stupid audiophiles are around all the audio world.

 

Btw, look the Nakamichi 1000 ZXL review and its measured specs ( I still own the 700 ZXL, way similar quality performance. ), really nice for a vintage cassette tape deck:

 

http://www.hifi-classic.net/review/nakamichi-1000zxl-321.html

I would like to read the Studer Mike’s measurements.

R.

Shure V15 - the best cartridges of all time?

"Moving coil fans must be gritting their teeth at the audacious title that suggests the V15 might be the best cartridge series of all time.

Sure, there are more expensive cartridges, and moving coil fans are often steadfast in their views that moving magnet just will not cut it.

But the Shure V15, in terms of its popularity, affordability, cult status and brilliant (affordable) sound is right up there.

A related example might be calling the Technics SL-1200 one of the best turntables of all time – not the highest end turntable, by any means, but a solid piece of machinery that combines excellent sound with affordability."

 

 

I wonder what serious broadcasters use these days now that Shure have stopped cartridge production?

http://best-turntables.com/shure-v15-series-explained/

A predictable outcome for a thread entitled as it is. Among the very few who can purchase the most expensive cartridges, there will still be the same phenomenon we see in lower end contests: people advocate for what they know about. I have eight cartridges in the 3-5k range. I'm happy to push them as being worthy of consideration, but to do so involves considerations of the system they get plugged into, and it all becomes rather meaningless.

If I could afford an SS strain gauge, a DS Audio optical, or an AT tip-sensing cartridge, I'm sure I would learn about the deficiencies of my other components! Since I cannot, I must make do with what I have, and honestly, I'm not disappointed in any way. I know now that my ears cannot hear the refinements that some claim. So I know what is the best cartridge in my world. And really, can anyone say they know what is best in anyone else's world?

The Hell it’s a silly question.

@mikelavigne Mike has told us about the DaVa and Etsuro Gold cartridges and why he values them above all others he has tried. If I value liveliness, I buy the DaVa. If I value refinement, I buy Etsuro.

@atmasphere Ralph has done the public service of giving us insight into Raul’s error, instead of taking the easy way out.

@lewm Lew has contributed staid common sense informed by expertise.

@mulveling, the noted Koetsu connoisseur, corrects misunderstandings about Koetsu.

@mglik tells us why he likes the Grado Epoch with Quads.

To name just five.

As long as we have real experts addressing real issues of interest to them, no thread is silly. We can just thank goodness that they (experts) bother.

 

The quantor ''all'' is not a name with reference, Its function is to express

generality. The question can only be answered with refrence to the number

of carts each person owns. Aka with ''numerical quantifier '' . ,So ''the best

of my 4 samples IS'...'. Or (Raul)  ''the best of my 100 samples Is''. But to know which of ''all 'ever produced'' which  ''all'' as universal quantifier mply is silly question. 

is 

The way this conversation has turned reminds me of a photography forum I used to frequent.  There were a number of really high-end commercial photographers that would participate in the forum and provide a ton of valuable information.  

Unfortunately, there were a few "know-it-alls" that would discount their experience and make baseless claims without having any actual experience that supported them. 

One by one the best contributors left, and once they did, many of the entry level pros and experienced hobbyists left as well.  The forum at one point would typically have about 50 active discussion threads.  I just looked this morning and there are 3.  The blind can't lead the blind.

@rauliruegas @mikelavigne 

-Look, these are some specs of the Studer A820 that confirms in some ways what you posted and I said here:

tape speed deviation: +,- 0.2% - tape slip: +,- 01% . Speed stability here is even more critical issue than in a TT because is the recorder and the information used to cut the LPs.

W&F is +,- 0.03 % at 30" and 0.04% at 15" speeds.

Frequency response +,- 2db ( that’s a swing of 4dbs ! ! ) at 30ips from 40hz to 22khz and at 15ips 30hz-20khz ( really limited frequency response. ) and obviously that at +,- 1db deviation FR is even worst.

FWIW Dept.:

You need to spend some time with these machines to really understand them, and having done that I can tell you that if you spend the time really setting them up correctly they easily surpass the published specs. Just for the record though you're never going to see a variation of 4dB in FR!! Heck, you're hard pressed to get anywhere near that even with a cassette deck. If you spend time with the record and playback calibration, they can easily be well within 0.5dB between record and playback.

So put another way the specs you see represent a nominal machine, not one that is properly calibrated, and certainly not one that has been tricked out by one of several gurus of tape machines (that anyone who really wants to know how good they can get) who are known to service them. Put another way, Raul, Mike's machines are tricked out, having lower noise, lower distortion wider bandwidth and certainly far greater speed stability than the original stock specs suggest.

So, Raul, what Mike is hearing and what you are suggesting he is hearing are two really different things. IMO you need to acknowledge that.

 

The Lino 3.3 was highly recommended as a phono stage that could stand up to any. I currently use a full function Atma-Sphere MP-1. This is a two box unit with a separate ps. I believe it was designed from its outset as a vinyl playback machine.

Half of its many tubes are the phono stage. I got lucky and scored 8 mil spec Mullard 12AT7s. Very rare and spectacular sounding.

I also save having to use another pricey IC and rack space for an outboard phono stage.

But the Lino seems like it may be something very special?

So if digital is now perfect and battery supplies are perfect, who needs the world’s best cartridge? (Sarcasm intended.)

@noromance , totally different ballgame. The pop removal is done before the RIAA filter is applied. The filter slurs the pop waveform making it twice as long in time. Taking it out after RIAA is applied leaves a bigger hole. The Channel D pop filter also fills in the gap with a duplicate of the preceding millisecond of waveform. All this is done in the digital world and is not noticeable. It also is removing just the big pops not the little stuff. It's sensitivity is adjustable. It can also be turned on and off on the fly. I seriously doubt any of us could reliably identify when the filter is on, I can't. Remember, this is not a stand alone piece of equipment. It is only a software program. It only requires a phono stage with a flat output. Granted, there are not many of them. I can not imagine a phono stage of higher quality than the Channel D Seta L Plus. I bought one for a reason and it was not cheap either, $10K. There are certainly more expensive units but excepting Channel D's Seta L20 at $60K there are no other more expensive units that interest me at all and this is after a decade of research. The CH Precision is a large overly complicated unit that requires an outboard power supply to function at at it's best. That is nuts to me. There is no better power supply than batteries. The unit disconnects itself from the wall in operation. Less is also more. When it comes to phono stages a lot more. 

@mijostyn I heard demos of the Sweetwater units with the designers and while they are excellent units, you could absolutely hear the cleaned version’s veil over the original.

A computer can entirely remove the "pop" from a scratch and fill it in with a small section of the previous several milliseconds and you can not hear where the defect was.

Does anyone here remember analog cell phones? Terrible is an understatement.

There are things you can do in the digital world that are impossible to do in the analog world. Incomplete? Are you kidding me? Human brains are not near that fast. A computer can entirely remove the "pop" from a scratch and fill it in with a small section of the previous several milliseconds and you can not hear where the defect was. If I record a record digitally, scratches and all and synchronized the two, the copy and the real thing. Nobody will be able to reliably identify which version they are listening too. Nobody. 

@rsf507  , Darn, forgot to mention this one. The Seta L20 is a very rare bird. It costs $60,000. It certainly is by a long distance the quietest phono stage in existence. Otherwise, it is the very same circuit used in the Seta L Plus and should sound very much the same. It is also a very large heavy unit. I would love to hear one. But, it is probably safer that I don't:-) I would have a hard time explaining that one to the wife. A $10,000 cartridge was hard enough. I was lucky to get the motorcycle buy her.  

Dear @mikelavigne : " why do i even come to Audiogon? sillyness. "

 

Even that maybe the issue is that Agon forums are a little different specially vs the other where you are happy with and that issue is that here not all is about " applauses and praises " as there, even that in this thread twice I applause the DaVa new item because any new product ( no matters what. ) always is welcomed in the audio community.

 

What you posted tell me that is way dissapointed for you posting in Agon but in reality there is the other side of that bad experiences in this thread. Which could be that good side? that some of us like to go a little deeper not only in subjective terms but with objectivity too.

Everything in the life has that side or exist its duality: woman-men, good-bad, nigth-day, fast-lower, up-down and so on and on.

 

Here some us showed you and other gentlemans the other side the side that no audio item owner likes to " hear " but that’s part of that audio item always.

 

So you don’t have to to have that kind of feelings and ask Darius for the cartridge specs. All in these forum and in all internet forums want to know about. So and as always your help and advise is welcomed for the audio community every where.

Btw, Through the good recorded D2D LPs any one ( including you. ) can listen all the damage any R2R recorder makes with its quality sound degradation.

""" i am talking about 30 years of analog based Lps and what is the reference for those? they were all tape sourced. """

That statement says what all we experienced and through those years experienced that analog alternative almost all of we are havy biased 100% in favor of it .

You said, digital is " incomplete " but with no objective/facts that could confirm it and I know you can’t do it but not only you but no one can do it and if there is a gentleman that thinks it can do it then is Welcomed because each single day is a learning day.

In the other side you neither say the facts that makes analog complete but I invite you to think in two proccess from where all LPs came: Recording and Playback.

In both proccess the MUSIC signal that microphones pick-up pass through " thousands " of degradations steps till we can listen the sound through our speakers and what in reality are we all listening? a Complete experience as you said? certainly NOT but a huge degradaded signal. Where Digital is almost a direct signal sound due that both proccess are almost with out degradations, it’s a Complete experience at least against analog LPs that are " incomplete ". Don't you think?

 

R.

@mikelavigne I appreciate all your responses think they are spot on. Your integrity is above reproach. Please keep us informed of your listening regarding your cartridges.

Thanks @mijostyn for the list of current mode phono stages. A quick search showed the Seta L20 mk2. Anyone hear this unit?

why do i even come to Audiogon? sillyness. i am talking about 30 years of analog based Lps and what is the reference for those? they were all tape sourced.

and any digital transfer involved, started with tape. i have no interest in this discussion.

i’m a big believer in digital and have a huge commitment to it. love it. i’m sure i’m more invested than anyone on this forum in digital, by far. but.....my Studers kill it if we are talking making music. digital is accurate at particular points, analog is complete. complete wins hands down. every time.

i listen to digital for access to new music and for ease of use. listen to digital 60-70% of the time. but ultimate performance does not involve digital.....in any step.

@rsf507 , Sure. You have the BMC MCCI which @lewm owns, the Sutherland Loco and Little Loco, The CH Precision that Michael Fremer uses and the Channel D Seta L Plus and Lino C 3.0. I have the Seta L Plus. I chose it because it can operate in either current or voltage mode, it has a battery power supply and it has both flat and RIAA corrected outputs. It's design aesthetic is also pleasing to me. It is a very simple, straight forward unit without a lot of unnecessary options and switches. Less is More!  It is also beautifully made. The electronics are all first class and it uses surface mount technology. All the script and logos are laser engraved into the metal. Digital RIAA correction has theoretical benefits aside from the utmost accuracy. It can also correct any curve you can think of. There must be 20 or more options.

@mijostyn can you list some current mode phono stages?

@rauliruegas , thank you for saying that first. If I have to use a standard to AB against it will be a 24/192 digital file. Nothing at this date is more accurate than a 24/192 file in a home system. Why not DSD? None of the modern four channel digital processors I know of operate in DSD, always PCM. The digital program I use to play files converts DSD to PCM for playback and storage.

No analog tape machine can compete for accuracy with a 24/192 file. This says nothing about perceived sound quality. I intentionally juggle the frequency response curve to suit my own taste, intentionally inaccurate. 

What Mike's Studers are, are very cool machines, mechanical artwork. They are antiques and have no place in a modern system. They are now much more cost effective better performing ways to have the highest quality sources.  

Today I had the experience of using the Platinum Signature played through a current mode phono stage without RIAA correction, digitized, pops removed and RIAA correction applied digitally. I would call the results majestic.  With this cartridge the current mode is noticeably better than the voltage mode. I can switch back and forth. The current mode is slightly cleaner with sharper transients which increase detail. Higher volumes are even more comfortable. The two places the improvement is most noticeable is with pianos and bass definition. Very happy with the results. Now I have to learn how to "render" files. The system records them flat like raw photography files. If you want to play the files from and store them in a normal library they have to be "rendered" by adding RIAA correction, adjusting gain and using other added features like pop and tic removal. 

@bpoletti  : Sorry.

 

R.

Dear @mijostyn : " I’m sorry Mike but your Studers are a poor reference. "

Well, it’s a reference till some levels depending what you want to test/compare and with what purpose.

There are several problems with R2R units , one of the more significative is that in the past all audiophiles took as an audio reference the R2R to compare its quality level performance against other sources mainly analog but even digital too

Yes, live MUSIC is the main reference and nothing can changes about but I can tell you that through my audio life other than live MUSIC I changed my comparison home system reference that I take as part of tests proccess.

I followed @mikelavigne system and opinion for many years and he are really in focus because he almost always posted that the Studer A820.........exactly as in this thread he posted that twice. So he is sticking with that reference. Mike the following information is with all my respect to you as always and in NO single way I’m trying to dimish you or those beautiful Studer 820 but facts are just that facts.

 

For me and from some years now other than live MUSIC digital alternative is untouchable by any R2R tape or other analog source no matter what. I posted about at least time times in the last 10 years and the latest MoFi controversy only confirms it.

That gentlemans as Mike still does not accepted that ( even that are extremely happy with the one step MoFi digital Lps and they know came from DSD master. ) is a " problem " for all them: we can’t live in the past. Everything is in movement and changing and I think we have at least try to learn about.

Look, these are some specs of the Studer A820 that confirms in some ways what you posted and I said here:

 

- tape speed deviation: +,- 0.2% - tape slip: +,- 01% . Speed stability here is even more critical issue than in a TT because is the recorder and the information used to cut the LPs.

W&F is +,- 0.03 % at 30" and 0.04% at 15" speeds.

Frequency response +,- 2db ( that’s a swing of 4dbs ! ! ) at 30ips from 40hz to 22khz and at 15ips 30hz-20khz ( really limited frequency response. ) and obviously that at +,- 1db deviation FR is even worst.

 

All those are facts and those facts tell me that can’t be my reference against my today digital reference and I have to say that I’m an analog audiophile but mainly a MUSIC lover and I like to have almost always my foots in the ground. Audio " dreams " are not any more for me.

No, I’m not against Mike ( or any one else. ) and he knows it. I appreciated him.

 

R.

Dear @mikelavigne  : I respect your opinion but disagree with.

Look, as you I have long analog experiences and specially regarding cartridges as a whole.  All what surrounds the DaVa including your personal experienced opinion makes me to think for sure ( even that I did not listen to it. ) that that cartridge has to many " errors " around to take it really seriously and buy it.

 

Come on Mike, I can't find out any where the basic cartridge specs. Have you? could you share with all of us?

In the other side and in your main forum where you normall post every one is " happy " as you are and from where is the foundation of that happiness with all those explained facts around that design and please don't tell us: " it's what we like it ". Nothing wrong with that but explain nothing serious about.

You posted with some kind of irony there:  "" if the tubed power supply is distorted, i love distortion like that..  ""

Ironic or not it's very clear that you like that kind of distortions developed by the DaVa sample you own. My " shots " as you named are not diminish neither the designer or the cartridge, only trying to explain some facts that it stayss been facts till the manufacturer somewhere over the net gives his takes about.

 

I know @mijostyn  and if he knew that the DaVa is something to own you can really be sure that him or even me already pull thr tiger to own it.

 

I already read what other owners posted in that other forum but down that forum are a lot of gentlemans that die for the 3012 tonearm no matters what and die for other audio products with no sense. Yes, several of them are really whealty but seems to me ( not you. ) that many of them only have $$$ and are followers of the in home sellers .

I don't trust on the word of those gentlemans and you know that normally I trust in you and not because your $$$$ but your experience.

R.

DS Audio are keen to see new designs for their Generators being produced.

There is schematic information available through DS Audio to encourage third party Generators to be produced.

I recently introduced a friend, who is a long time advocate of DS Audio Cart's to a Third Party Generator, and they jumped at the opportunity.

The New Design Generator has made a very good impression and has superseded the OEM Model in use with a Grandmaster and DS003. 

@rauliruegas 

Brevity is a blessing.  The lack of brevity if a curse.  Verbosity ensures ignoring the substance.  

 

ScanTech seems to make the best carts I’ve heard, Lyra at the top of my list. I’m currently using a Lyra Skala and have nothing I want. It is not the weak point of my system.  That's what I've heard and not to discount what others have observed in their systems.  

The weak point in my system, like for EVERY system, it the room.

Live music played in an acoustically lousy concert hall is a poor reference.

Studer can be a much better one for our purposes. Digital is not a reference at all.

This is a good thread to call others names and start a class war in the process.

Anyone here works for the living or just buys/sells worthless pieces of paper that only increases the costs to everyone? 

What a cute bunch we are.

 

 

 

 

@mijostyn 

live music is a data point. maybe lots of data points. part of our viewpoints and knowledge base. but our vinyl reproduction reference is the source master tape.

it's not that hard to get that. but you have a right to your opinion.

@mikelavigne , I'm sorry Mike but your Studers are a poor reference. The right reference is live music. Granted, it is hard to AB with live music but, live music where you are listening to the actual instruments and not a PA system is the reference. I have noted that you like the DaVa cartridge. Based on what I can determine it is not a cartridge I would care to even listen too. Maybe it is my loss. So be it. Frankly I doubt it. Not knowing you personally, I have no reason to trust your ears. I have noted your opinion and will combine that with the opinion of others. 

@rauliruegas , We shall see how the DS holds up in the long run. It is a large investment and not one I am ready to make...yet. 

@rauliruegas

i am disappointed to read about these attempts to discredit the DaVa without even hearing it. we all have a right to our opinions. i appreciate that. but please respectfully qualify your remarks that you have not heard it, so you really don’t know how good it is.

then take your shots if you must. guessing about products is part of what we do here.

then if you DO ever hear it, tell us how that goes. thank you.

Dear @mijostyn  : "" be very suspicious of any component that stands out sonically in dramatic fashion. It is likely to be very colored, not realistic but surrealistic. I have gone down that road in the past and in every case tired of the sound with more experience.  ""

The time almost always tell us that your statement is true.

 

The DaVa designer is a very enthusiastic gentleman with more enthusiasm than really deep knowledge levels in de overall cartridge operation subjects. 

For years he builded several cartridge prototypes of the Neumann cartridge, so the wrong path of the cantilever-less characteristic came from there when not only Neumann or Ikeda really were nota a wallop true success. That is a fact and Ikeda confirmed when just forgeret on the cantilever-less and started again with cantilever cartridge designs. Now, no one knows about till it try it or some one design it and listen to it, so the Ikeda " adventure " with was and is welcomed always as the Neumann one.

I have to say that with my first hand experience with the Ikeda cantilever-less in my system I experienced that " wallop ", surprise and high enthusiam that I even said that design was " prodigious " at least. I owned 3 different Ikeda and the best experiences were through the REX9 paired with the Mission The Mechanic tonearm ( in those times I owned over 20 different tonearms, good top tonearms. Well, not all.) and after some time all the Ikeda samples just gone when I learned that that was a wrong path and now I don't think I'm ready to try it again. As you, ""   I find it's design clashes with my own perception of physics.  "" and common sense.

Other that the manufacturer low knowledge level of low tracking abilities of his cartridge design that's a " heavy " penalty that no field coil principle can fix it there are other " mistakes " ( for me ) or more than mistakes questions: why 4 different power suplies? why an after market additional cartridge filter? why cactus?

Always a " new kid in the...." is welcomed, especially the field coil principle that's what really moves my curiosity to listen the Audio Note due that I listened the normal I/O and still remember its very good quality level along the @larryi  positive post with his experiences with this new field coil design that other than that is exactly the I/O cartridge. I don't know yet its price.

 

About your DS experiences good to know what you posted:

"" However this was not in my own system but in systems that were significantly inferior. "

As you now the strain gauge design is just like the DS an amplitude sense instead velocity but here is a big BUT: DS plays inside the rules in specific the RIAA inverse eq..and that's why we need a phono stage with RIAA to runs the DS. In the other side PL choosed to plays with his own " business man " rules and the cartridge design does not conforms with the RIAA and from there comes that " terrible " brigthness you experienced but several audiophiles love it.

 

R.

 

Didn’t realize Koetsu’s went up to 20k. A quick Google search found this.  

@rsf507  That's with the diamond cantilever +$5K add-on option. That pink Rhodenite stone is also now discontinued, along with Coralstone (ran out of material). The standard boron models still top out at 15K or 16K (for Blue Lace), which they have been at for many years now.

Anyways, the large premium on certain stones seems to be thanks to the regional distributors more than  Koetsu Japan. And a more "pedestrian" RSP or Onyx with boron cantilever still sounds exceptionally good and embodies the full Koetsu sound (for that matter the Urushis probably do too - I want to try one). They all have the same motors inside.

Dear @lancelock and friends: I forgot to post a critical and important issue on those cartridge designs.

 

The optical DS design has a huge advantage over any other cartridge designs including the field coil and that advantage is that is and sense amplitude and not velocity as the other cartridges.

Senses amplitude means lower distortions against any velocity normal cartridges as the ones we all know.

@lancelock you was the only owner of DS cartridge that posted here and you own the top model that comes with diamond cantilever ( not that " scientific " cactus material in the DaVa. I would like to ask the designer if he knows which the " young Modulus " for that cactus choice material. I said this with " irony " because DaVa manufacturer speaks of science. ) and micro ridge stylus shape an even that I never had the opportunity to listen DS cartridges I’m with you with what you posted:

 

""" I just can’t believe it gets any better than this. Absolute joy to listen to. """

Congratulations to be an owner of it.

 

R.

From Mono and Stereo 2022 talking about the DaVa, "a unique sound with startling realism."

There is only one realistic sound. Everything else including "unique" is not. I have not listened to the DaVa Reference and probably never will. I find it’s design clashes with my own perception of physics. I have listened to DS cartridges and did not find them exceptional, exceptional enough to get invested in the electronics. However this was not in my own system but in systems that were significantly inferior. I have listened to the Soundsmith Strain Gauge and it was very enticing, a little too enticing which I think was due to it’s inherent brightness. In the end I decided not to buy one. It also has trouble contending with higher groove. velocities.

Another point that I would like to make is that you have to be very suspicious of any component that stands out sonically in dramatic fashion. It is likely to be very colored, not realistic but surrealistic. I have gone down that road in the past and in every case tired of the sound with more experience.

@mijostyn

i have a long held process to judge my sources, including my turntables and cartridges, and that is RTR tape with my Studer A-820’s and King Cello tape repro. as those have stayed constant for now.......15 years, it’s a reference hard to surpass. my vinyl has certainly gained on the field of my master dub collection over the years.

the DaVa Reference is not some alien sound from outer space. it’s ’like’ my Etsuro Gold cartridges, and my tape. it’s music, and is able to attain ’suspension of disbelief’ frequently. very immersive and engaging. it has it’s own outstanding "musical" qualities for sure. i hope you do get to hear one.

i fully respect that we all view methods of technology for ourselves and have a right to our opinions about it.

Oh, and don't let anyone tell you that digital is the standard. If digital were perfect, then all digital products would produce that same perfect sound. They don't. QED.

@arro222

Well, the distributor wants his cut. So does the dealer. When they say 40% markup, they mean 40% of the selling price, so it’s actually a 66% markup. To be fair, each has his own costs and it’s not all gravy, especially the retailer.

Then there is marketing. Only a few can get by with no marketing at all. But they have proprietary designs and proprietary skills and proprietary parts. For example, there was only one source of small exotic platinum magnets with a highly uniform magnetic field. They were made in quantity for MRI machines. When the factory closed, one alert client scooped up the world supply. That was Koetsu, so they alone have platinum magnets.

Speaking of Koetsu, their top cartridges also feature aged rosewood bodies, or stone bodies (which are prone to shatter during manufacturing), and diamond cantilevers. Then it is fair to say that the highly skilled labour isn’t cheap, and that many examples, from parts supplied to them to finished product, are substandard and need to be discarded.

We all asked the same question about HP tubes, back in the day. Thing was, we could buy a 6922 (tube) for $3, but a 6922 from HP was $30. Little did we know that the HP tube was a bargain: it was later said that HP bought the tubes by the pallet and discarded 98% straight into the dumpster. The same MAY be true of the best cartridges, not that we’ll ever know.

So you pays your money and takes your choice.

 

 

From Mono and Stereo 2022 talking about the DaVa, "a unique sound with startling realism." 

There is only one realistic sound. Everything else including "unique" is not. I have not listened to the DaVa Reference and probably never will. I find it's design clashes with my own perception of physics. I have listened to DS cartridges and did not find them exceptional, exceptional enough to get invested in the electronics.   However this was not in my own system but in systems that were significantly inferior. I have listened to the Soundsmith Strain Gauge and it was very enticing, a little too enticing which I think was due to it's inherent brightness. In the end I decided not to buy one. It also has trouble contending with higher groove.  velocities. 

Another point that I would like to make is that you have to be very suspicious of any component that stands out sonically in dramatic fashion. It is likely to be very colored, not realistic but surrealistic. I have gone down that road in the past and in every case tired of the sound with more experience. 

There is a huge amount of science behind the very best cartridges, materials science in particular. It takes a lot of horsepower in a company to develop these tiny parts and put them together with perfect precision. It should be no surprise that companies like Ortofon, Lyra and MSL (and all it's offshoots) make wonderful cartridges in a very reliable fashion. IMHE exotic designs wind up disappointing in the end. High resolution digital files of modern digitally recorded music do not lie. The very best cartridges should sound just like them. Any variation signifies coloration be it euphonic or not. The MSL Platinum Signature is certainly very close. 

@rauliruegas , trust me on this one my friend.  If you think the FM Acoustics equalizers are something else wait till you get a load of the new DEQX digital preamps. Their capability far exceeds the FM acoustics even if the build quality is not quite up there with FM. It is still very impressive and being able to adjust the frequency response and time align individual channels on Hz at a time is powerful in a way that in a way that defies description. 

I am working on setting up the system for digital RIAA EQ. All the parts are in place I just have to learn how to program the Lynx Hilo to send everything where it supposed to go and there is so much in that little box that my old brain is having difficulty avoiding confusion.

I need some enlightenment

What is in a tt cart that would warrant a 12K-25K price tag?

I have heard the reasoning of r&d but wondering how much of that a cartridge that is about an inch long and half inch wide can substantiate.

Thank you!

@terry9

the DaVa is electric! alive! nothing lean, or or clinical. projects lots of energy. harmonically rich timbre and textures. robust bass. very fast and agile. but a touch raw and immediate, as opposed to overly liquid and slow. the very best MC’s (my special [and ultra costly] Etsuro Gold’s) might be more refined.

will make many cartridges seem tame and languid in direct comparison.....but the DaVa has zero edge or glare.

you are connected to the music, and not thinking about the sound. maybe the very best and most real reproduced vocals i’ve yet heard.

if someone claimed it’s the very best cartridge i could not argue. but i’m not going there.

@mikelavigne Glad the DaVa is working out so well for you. I was wondering about one for myself - how would you characterize the sound? Lean? Analytical? Lush?

Thanks!

Dear @mijostyn and friends: " The first and most important is tracking ability..."

 

I could say that cartridge tracking ability is the first main " desired " operation characteristic.but for the cartridge can shows 90um its overall set up and tonearm makes a critical role down there.

 

Anyway with or with out what I said on cartridge tracking the cantilever-less designs are the worst ones in that regards.

Not many audiophiles really take care the cartridge ability before pull the triger for.

Better cartridge tracking abilities means not only lower tracking distortions but that we can get more MUSIC information from those " auwful " LP groove modulations.

The different cartridge motor principle kind of designs are all good with its own trade-offs along the added manufacturer trade-offs and the DaVa is a good example when the designer choosed cantilever-less characteristic and not only that but over 3 different power supplies for the owner can tame the sound to his own targets, even in those power suplies with different choice of voltage and this makes a difference and the owner can choose in between. So an equalizer, then where the manufacturer left the field coil advantages?. eVEN SOME OWNERS ADDED AN EXTERNAL ADDITIONAL FILTER ( made by they self. ) APPROVED BY THE DESIGNER.

In my case I don’t like other eq. that the necessary inverse RIAA eq.. Of course that the overall design always is a privilege of the designer/manufacturer and if we take a look for the DS optical design the principle looks really good with clear advantages over other principles but here too the owner needs a manufacturer equalizer that " mainly " works with the cartridge bass range response but the manufacturer in reality is not precise on what at the end makes that equalizer that comes with a price tag of 45K added to the cartridge 15K.

Yes, 45K for two boxes, 3 transformers, millions of uf filtration and owner choice of bass range eq. selection to mate the customer targets.

 

What’s all about? because " professional " reviewers and audiophiles touted as in this thread both cartridges. Yes the decision is up to each one of us, things can’t be in other way but if I wanted an additional equalizer in my room/system certainly I will not do it through a cartridge but I will go for the best out there that can gives me many other good " things " and that unit comes from FM Acoustics. I remember that the first time that I posted of this audio product all analog lovers were " against " me but.........

It’s a learning lecture the FM whole information and each one of us can imagine what can do for any room/system and obviously any top cartridge:

 

https://www.fmacoustics.com/products/harmonic-linearizers/fm-133-fm-233/

 

In the other side you are rigth too on the stylus quality that yes in the top designs are hand selected but the cantilever material is little more important because its direct tendency to develops additional resonances/vibrations in the cartridges .

@jcarr once posted that and even said that he bougth boron for cantilevers because its high demand a low offer suppliers. It’s so important that he puts in its top cartridge models diamond dust all over the boron cantilevers to improve its stiffness. Diamond is the material with the higher Young Modulus value followed by boron.

 

Btw, is something " weird " that that OP expensive Grado top model came with an almost " ridiculous " stylus shape for that kind of $$$$ level cartridge.

 

@larryi , you are rigth too and that FET cartridge design you mentioned came from way many years I never listened but looks in paper as very good principle too.

No, almost no one take care about the ART 1000 just for what @syntax posted: inexpensive cartridge for some one takes seriously even that’s a seriously and very good design but unfortunatelly this is the analog world where we aLL LIVE.

Other good point is the one @tmasphere posted on those additional 2 wires for the field coil designs that yes stiff the tonearm and this is not a good " notice " for the owners even that all of them are truly satisfied and that the cartridge has a 6 months wait listing owners but the Formula One has one full year.

 

R.

Hmm. Just like that my 24p died. Well, not dead, but the left channel is making clicking noises in the Quad 2905 speaker. It's not another panel gone in the speaker as there is no clicking with any other input. Fortunately, I have a line on a barely used Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista Vinyl. So there will be no end of loading options, after I save up again the cost of the phono stage.