What is the science behind audiophile fuses?

"Science can’t prove the earth is older than 6000 years. "

@tonywinga ,

I suggest a bit of in depth research on radiocarbon dating.

Extreme accuracy up to 12,000+ years. After that, less accurate to 50,000.

I researched it.  Perhaps you should research it a little more yourself.  It might open your eyes.  Radiocarbon dating is more art and guesswork than science.

We have the science/engineering that we rely on for our day to day technology- a pretty reliable working knowledge.   But the sciences that are more theoretical, astrophysics, anthropolgy, etc are built on a fragile system of suppositions and yet people build a belief system around these theories as a way to find comfort in their existence.

My eyes are open. If you had researched it, then you would know about dendrochronology and Bayesian Modeling and would know that it’s not art and guess work and wouldn’t have made that statement. It's come a long way since its inception.

Since radiocarbon dating is strictly for organic material, do you also discount methods to date the Earth itself, such as Rubidium-Strontium Dating, Potassium Argon Dating, and Uranium-Thorium-Lead Dating? If so, what is behind your belief?

" But the sciences that are more theoretical, astrophysics, anthropolgy, etc are built on a fragile system of suppositions and yet people build a belief system around these theories as a way to find comfort in their existence."

I also don’t understand this statement. I think the exact opposite to be true.

People find comfort in their existence by building a belief system around religion, not scientific theories.

The science is psychoacoustics.

Look up the video of TAS’s tour of Synergistic Research. Note at no point in the video do they even allude to SR having an R&D lab in the building. 

Exactly.  People turn scientific theories into a religion.  Everyone wants to believe in something.  Hey, if you can look me in the eye and tell me you believe in the guy with a machine that goes “ping” then good for you.  I not disputing your beliefs.  

I am not a scientist.  I have been in audio 50+ years and have  $100k+ system.  A couple of years ago I purchased an “audiophile” fuse for my VTL power amp.  Did not notice one bit of sound improvement

@lourdes 

Did not notice one bit of sound improvement

This has been my experience, however the swiss digital fuse box was a different story.

@tonywinga ,

Agreed. Our beliefs are our beliefs. Certainly no hard feelings and my apologies to all for side tracking the discussion. Because, you know, that rarely happens!🤓

I’m cool.

This discussion has peeked my interest.  I have purposefully avoided audiophile fuses- up to now.  Maybe it’s these hot summer days.  I ordered some HiFi Tuning fuses for my amps and DAC.  Not too expensive so I guess I’m dipping my toe into the audiophile fuse waters.  They should arrive on Monday.  One thing about this hobby is that it stays interesting as long as I have the money to spend…

One thing I will try is resistance measurements on the fuses cold, RT and hot just to see if they behave differently.  I have only a multimeter so unless the changes are significant the multimeter may not detect a difference.  I might go to just 200 F since who knows for sure what foo foo dust is inside.

Ask yourself: what if instead of having a fuse, using a large gauge piece of metal? There is some risk, so only for the brave of heart @carlsbad2 @carlsbad style.

If risk averse, then try this. You are welcome!

https://verafiaudiollc.com/products/best-audio-products/swiss-digital-fuse-box-52299809

Amazon has 99.99% pure copper rod 5mm in diameter for sale. 
Had already thought about it.  Not sure I want to try it. 

+1 on the SD fuse box, mine has been in for a week along with the Puron AC conditioner that VeraFi distributes...they work and trying them has zero risk other than shipping fees.

@tonywinga Picked up an Amazon 3/8” (5mm) x 12” 99.9 pure copper rod a few days ago. Cut to 20 mm lengths, cleaned them up and took the plunge. Wow is all I have say…every aspect of the music Is improved over my audio fuses. Risk yes but low in my mind.  I have never had a component fuse blow. All components plugged into protected power conditioners.  I Make sure they are only powered up when I am using and I unplug them during any rare power outages as a backup.  Waiting for a higher grade conductivity copper slug to compare with these once it arrives.  🤞🤞 SD fuse box does seem like a nice insurance for more expensive or rare components which doesn’t really apply to me. 🤔

@thyname thanks for the shout out as the original "we don't need no stinking fuses" guy.

I have tested the Swiss Digital Fuse Box and recommend it over any fuse.

My impression was that it wasn't as good as the "large gauge piece of metal" (high conductivity copper) but not a lot of difference.  If you feel you need/want electrical protection, I recommend the SDFB.

I think some people are confused about the configuration of the SDFB.  It provides better protection than a fuse.  Generally a magnetic current monitoring circuit will trip much faster than a slow blo fuse.

Of course we've all had experience where a compoent failed and the fuse didn't protect it.  that's just the nature of electronics  the fuse protects against upstream disturbances more than downstream failures.

Jerry

No way!  I’m ordering the copper slug.  Wait.  What if the copper slug does more for the sound than upgraded fuses?  Then I’ll be torn between protecting my amps vs better sound.  Or worse, I have to spend more money and get the SDFB’s.  The saying is so true:  “Ignorance is bliss.”

A corollary to Murphy’s Law:  A $10 transistor will blow to protect a $0.10 fuse.

Is everyone familiar with Murphy’s Law? It states that if something can go wrong it will.
Corollary 1: When left to themselves, things go from bad to worse.

My favorite: in order for something to become clean, something else must become dirty, but everything can become dirty without anything becoming clean.

HI, I see the issue of fuses like so many other things in the world of audio and that revolves around why it is worth buying a power cable, or any audio component from certain famous and expensive brands. A class D power amp can be had for less than $1000 and can play music from 20hz to 20khz. However, there are people who buy $100,000 power amps that also play 20hz to 20khz music. Those who can afford it will say that this purchase is because subjectively the music sounds better with that amplifier than with another one at a much lower cost. Spending $600 on a penny-priced fuse is one of those situations. I am not satisfied with the statements that a HIFI fuse has no effect on the sound of a device, based on the fact that the manufacturer would put it as standard if that improvement in sound was true. If we apply that same rule, why do 90% of the owners of amplifiers such as Boulder, Pass, Soulution, etc. buy a power cable, when the device already comes with one as standard. I don't know many people who keep their black power cords in their high-end appliances.

A whole other thing is personal experimentation with what a fuse in your audio system can do and whether you can hear the difference in sound and whether that difference in sound justifies the purchase. Each and every one of these issues are subjective and personal. It is very hard and slow to change a fuse in a device, and that the auditory memory does not betray you in that interval. For this reason, very few of those who have bought a HIFI fuse are willing to do those A vs. B tests, and in general terms we just assume the purchase and forget about it. All this under the idea that this new fuse is not going to cause the equipment to sound worse.

The topic, “Do more expensive amps/gear sound better than cheaper gear?”  didn’t exist a few decades back because we had a proliferation of Brick and Mortar Audio Stores.  One could walk in and hear a dozen combinations of amps, preamps, speakers, turntables and CD players and then decide for themselves what sounded best to their ears.  And if the sales person sensed you were close to buying they might escort you into their high end hifi room hoping they were not tugging on the line too hard to rip the hook out of your mouth.

These days the brick and mortar stores are more difficult to find and people prefer to shop online.  My son, for example avoids shopping at the grocery store.  He orders nearly everything online.  So it is easier to believe that all electronics sound basically the same and with little to no listening experience of a good hifi rig, they just order that SMSL amp from Amazon.

I have a SMSL Bluetooth amp on my back porch that I use with in ceiling speakers.  When I sold my Thiel speakers last winter, I set them up in my shop with that SMSL amp.  Thiels have the reputation of being hard to drive so I was kinda wondering if that little amp might burst into flames when I turned it on.  It was fine although I started with the volume turned down really low.

So I’m playing songs through my iPhone with Bluetooth to my Thiel speakers and I was amazed at how good they sounded at first.  Really shocked.  I turned up the volume a little and then I could tell that the sound was lacking.  But without the experience of hearing a good hifi rig, I can see how someone would be satisfied with the sound of these amps and not feel the need to spend more money- at least until they bring home a $2000 amp to try.

You get the 20-20k range with any amp but more money brings better bass, smoother highs, timber, 3d holographic sound, imaging, space, blacker background, etc.

The coolest experience with my rig these days is to play a Chorale piece.  The singers go wall to wall and up to the ceiling.  I can make out each individual voice in the choir vs. being just a cloud of sound.  It’s not for everyone but that gives me a thrill.  

tonywinga

I am looking forward in reading about your impressions /thoughts on the HiFi Tuning Fuse.  I have one (Silver) in my Marantz CD/SACD player that was switched out by the prior owner.

Happy Listening!

If we apply that same rule, why do 90% of the owners of amplifiers such as Boulder, Pass, Soulution, etc. buy a power cable, when the device already comes with one as standard.

Probably because they can.

Perhaps those that buy those amps are more susceptible to suggestions surrounding why they made that purchase in the first place?

Everyone jumping on the bandwagon is rarely a good argument.

Either way, does not answer the ops question. 

Just about 10 days have passed since this thread started.

Nothing has been established-just as expected.

Littlefuse=couple of bucks for a handful

Audiophool fuse= MANY dollars for 1

SQ end result-whatever your brain convinces the ears.

“Nothing has been established-just as expected.”

Sure, from your dogmatic, inexperienced in things hifi point of view nothing is established.  The prose, these words written here have given you no great revelation.  You came in with the “Audiophool” attitude so why would you expect anything different?

Just as I wrote earlier, these types of discussions were much less common when audio stores were more prevalent.  People could hear for themselves the sound of different brands and levels of components.  Now days, we have so many, “armchair audiophiles” with little to no experience in things hifi, who have not heard some great hifi systems in person and therefore believe or want to believe that anything more than they are willing to spend on Amazon for gear is a waste of money. 

Don’t even get me started on people who review systems they hear on YouTube.  Just like TV commercials in the 1970s showing us how their TV has a better picture than the TV we are watching the commercial on.

Whatever your brain convinces the ears ! ?

I've experienced listening to a fuse shootout on a guitar amp using a glass fuse , a Littlefuse ( or Bussmann ) , a cryro'd ceramic and a gold plated ceramic .  Yes I heard differences ( small but discernable ) the end result the My brain convinced My ears that  the Littlefuse sounded best , does that make the other fuses inferior ? No I liked the sound of the plain ceramic fuse .

Now  , my amp has 7 fuses 1 main and 6 on the board so I went to our local electronics supply and was able to purchase the 3 different values of  generic ceramic fuses replacing the glass ones .  A few months later no sound out of one channel so lifting the 56 lb. amp on to the bench and testing the fuses I found one of the four 6 am fuses blown . This pissed me off ( my own fault for using generic fuses , so I ordered Bussmann fuses and Wow just changing from the generic fuses made a sonic difference/ improvement .  $2.00 each verse 50 cents , OK so how o\would a HiFi Tuning , a Synergistic Research or some other Audiophile fuse sound ?  I considered the HiFi Tuning because they were the least expensive but   when a Furutech showed up at 1/2 price $35.00 I had to try it on the mains input only .  Does it sound better ?  Well My brain convinced my ears that is does  BUT when doing a back and forth with the Bussmann and the Furtech my wallet said yes the Furutech sounded a little bit better but not nearly enough to even consider replacing the other 6 fuses on the amp .  I have replaced all glass fuses in my system with Bussmann or Littlefuse ceramic ones . But if I win the Lottery then maybe ?

Certain things (at least at this point) cannot be measured in order to provide data that can be interpreted by independent observers demonstrating ironclad proof of an effect or lack thereof.  It doesn't mean there is no effect.  A foolproof test simply does not currently exist.  At this point, I think that is the state of fuses.  Having said that, there is no doubt in my mind that different fuses  have a palpable effect on my system.  Starting with Oregonpapa, my journey began.  It is super apparent with the swiss digital fuse box.  There are copper, brass, and gold infused sluggos, each with a distinct sonic footprint.  These are easily exchanged and the difference is very obvious.  

Unless we dissect then do a chemical analysis, we’ll never know the secret sauce to blow correctly AND sound better. I suspect a lot of trial with listening scrutiny before the fuses were brought to market. With SR fuses, and much steeper priced QSA fuses, I considering the Swiss Digital Fuse Box mentioned by a forum member

Certain things (at least at this point) cannot be measured in order to provide data that can be interpreted by independent observers demonstrating ironclad proof of an effect or lack thereof.  It doesn't mean there is no effect.  A foolproof test simply does not currently exist.

@orthomead , is this your learned opinion or are you spit-balling?  I think there are several ways to provide pretty ironclad proof. Not only several ways but they are not even very hard. One does wonder why they are not done.

Just as I wrote earlier, these types of discussions were much less common when audio stores were more prevalent.

When audio stores were prevalent I don't remember anyone even discussing fuses.

Don't be so pedantic.  Nearly every topic on these forums are assaulted by naysayers who refuse to believe any value is gained in higher end hifi let alone the clever and often times inexpensive tweaks and tricks of the trade- based on no experience.

What I am also saying is that people may sometimes be comparing two equivalent products thinking that one should be superior to the other because it cost 10% or 20% more.  For example, they might test drive a Ford and a Chevy and like one over the other.  But no one is going to compare a Ford to a Lamborghini, for example or claim that the Rabbit GTI is a giant killer.  The Rabbit GTI is a great car in its own right but not the same class as a Lambo.

I learned this years ago with phono cartridges.  I wore out a Koetsu Black phono cartridge.  I enjoyed it very much.  I bought a new "giant killer" cartridge for a few hundred dollars.  It sounded good but it was not in the same league at all as the Koetsu.  I quickly moved on to a much better phono cartridge.

Yes, high end hifi gets into the subtleties and nuances of music reproduction.  Most don't hear it and don't care.  Some people look at a painting and are moved in a profound way.  I spent about a minute gazing at the Mona Lisa and moved on.  (Hey, her eyes do follow me.  Cool.)

Your post needs some of this  

Am I a little dry?  Sorry.  I’m getting old and crotchety, I guess.

I'm no closer to understanding how audio grade fuses work but I got my new Hifi Tuning fuses earlier today for my amps and DAC.  I installed the fuse in my DAC.  The change in sound was immediate and apparent.  Deeper 3D imaging.  A little more clarity and crispness.  Images have an even more defined body to them.  And this is listening in the middle of the day, in the heat with the A/C running.  Can't wait until tonight to see how it sounds.  This audio hobby is just like a drug addiction- always looking for the next big fix.

Now the other part of this story is a sad and tragic tale.  A tale of woe.  A costly and tragic tale of woe.  I ordered two fast blo Hifi Tuning fuses for my mono bloc amps.  I originally intended to test the fuses in the amps first and then in a day or two try the other fuse in the DAC.  But alas, ignorance can be costly.  My amps require slo blo fuses.  When I pulled them out to check the ratings I saw a single filament in the fuse tube and assumed fast blo.  All I had to do was 1) Look on the back of the amp where it said slo blo or 2) Know and understand that the letter "T" on the end of the fuse stands for slo blo.  And so my amps powered up with the new fuses for just the briefest of moments and then poof.  The fuses are toast.  An expensive lesson but now I know; and a word of wisdom for others who read these woeful words.  (Good thing I didn't start out with those $400 brands).  These Hifi Tuning fuses are much less than $100 right now on sale.  It still hurts.

After hearing the change the new fuse made to the DAC, I mustered up some intestinal fortitude and reordered the proper fuses, this time for my Amps.

But now I have a couple of audio grade fuses to cut open and see what's inside for myself.  It's either that or try to sell them on eBay as used fuses.  Any takers?  :)

Reseating an existing fuse that is still in good condition alone can help the sound. Best to make sure what you have has no issues before throwing money at the problem and drawing conclusions.  

A corollary of that is that almost any replacement fuse when needed can make a difference.

I don’t disagree.  In this case however, I took the fuses out last week to verify the ratings and then reseated them.  I detected no change in the sound.

@mapman  you don't think many audiophiles don't take out the fuses and reseat  them on occasion?  I'm sure some have even put their old fuses back in to compare. 

Something to do with electron flow around (not through) affected by different types of conductors and materials, yada, etc. I tried them, did notice quite a difference. Wish I hadn’t, because I did not believe they would until I swapped even just one.

Too clear and palpable to be my brain lying to me simply for having purchased something more expensive than one dollar. Sorry, just another opinion! I didn’t follow the rules here 😣 
 

Not to be intimidated by costly errors, I pressed on with my inquiry into fuses. I made two copper (99.9% pure) slugs, 5x20mm for my mono bloc amps. The engineer in me, being all too well acquainted with Murphy’s Law, was a bit reticent but I pushed on. With the two copper slugs installed in place of the slow blo fuses I listened to several songs. I detected no difference in sound. I put the fuses back and listened again and everything still sounds the same to me. I have two new slo blow HiFi tuning fuses arriving tomorrow but now I’m not sure it will be worth the trouble to swap out the factory fuses.

Now the fuse swap in my DAC made a noticeable difference in the sound- for the better. But in the case with my amps, I’m not expecting to hear a difference since the copper slugs had no impact on the sound. We will see.

So I ground the cap off of one end of my blown hifi fuse and peaked inside. I see a ceramic tube with the two metal end caps. Inside the ceramic tube is a piece of white shrink tubing that fits snugly within the ceramic tube. Inside that shrink tubing are the remains of a filament. It looks like silver wire and has a small shiny ball on the end. I’m sure that’s due to the current draw melting the wire when I powered up my amp. I don’t see any foo foo dust- unless it vanished when I ground the end off.

Anyone willing to sacrifice one of their $400 fuses to peak inside?

So, anti-vibration damping? 2c for $49? 

Inside the ceramic tube is a piece of white shrink tubing that fits snugly within the ceramic tube

I'm guessing the shrink tubing is it.  And even that is necked down just at one end.

"And even that is necked down just at one end."

Maybe from the heat of the solder used to connect that end of the wire to the end cap?  The other end was probably connected prior to installing the heat shrink tubing.

I’m starting to think that the function of these fuses isn’t about conductance. It’s about mechanical dampening. I know someone else brought that up before. It has a silver filament and that’s it for electrical properties apparently. The ceramic tube and then the rubber tube inside that isolate and dampen the filament.

From that standpoint you are getting what you pay for. These are likely hand made and painstakingly assembled. Now, the real question is do they work? In the end you are paying for a product to provide a function. In the case of my DAC the hifi fuse helps. In the case of my amps, that is still to be determined. What I do know now is that the current factory fuse in my amp is not an electrical bottleneck or a restriction for power or sound. The copper slugs proved that- from a hearing standpoint. So will a damped and isolated fuse sound different in my amps? To be determined...

Thanks @tonywinga for your report. Really interesting.

We just had a strong thunderstorm and heavy rain blow through here.  Boy was I glad I put the fuses back in my amps.  I still unplugged everything.  We had a couple of close strikes.  

Btw- my mono bloc amps are on a dedicated circuit.  The front end is on its own dedicated circuit.  So when I put those copper slugs in, all I could think about was which will melt first, the copper slugs or the 10ga electrical line.  But everything was fine.

ceramic fuse 

Heat resistant, strong outer fuse body, usually constructed from ceramic or fibreglass. The cavity inside the fuse body is commonly filled with fine silica sand or quartz to absorb the heat and energy of an over-current.

Shrink tubing around ? the sand ? 

maybe around the body and ends if it's the pig tail type but otherwise nah .

@tonywinga 

Yes, copper slugs and thunderstorms seem like a very dangerous combination. 

@tonywinga  why would it matter if you had a copper slug or a fuse if everything was unplugged anyway.

Remember kids electricity kills.

Has anyone tried using a 22 long as a fuse?  How did it sound? Did you get a bang out of the improvement?

@tonywinga 

Maybe you didn’t leave the slugs in long enough to break in properly.😁