Harbeths are well-designed chinless dynamics that audiophile types crave for playback of the absolute sound. Unless your version of the absolute sound has gestalt and dynamics then you are out of luck.
What Is So Special About Harbeth?
SLike probably all of you, I just received notice from Audiogon of a 20% discount on Harbeth XD. I clicked on the tab and found that the sale price is about $2700. I have read so many glowing comments here about Harbeth — as if just saying the name is the password for entering aural nirvana. I admit, I haven’t listened to Harbeth speakers. But looking at these, they just look like smallish bookshelf speakers. I’m not questioning how good others say these speakers are, but HOW do they do it out of an ordinary-looking box?
Is it the wood? Is it the bracing? Is it the crossover components? Is it the cone material? What is the reason why these Harbeth’s are such gems compared to other bookshelf speakers? What is it about the construction or technology that makes these speakers a deal at $2700 on sale versus the $800, 900 or $1,000 that others normally cost? What is the secret that makes audiophiles thrill to get such a costly bargain?
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@bassdude - totally agree that Harbeths are superb for those genres you listed; that was my problem - I had Harbeths, but that ain't the kind of music I listen to! Dunno about that 'any old speaker' being fine for rock, hip-hop, etc, though.... |
I am a 30+ year working pro musician and my sound engineer (best in the nation in my opinion) has been saying for years that Harbeth is the best , most true speaker he’s ever heard. He was at "The Show" in Newport and said he heard a band playing , turned a corner and it was the Harbeth 30.1’s....no band. I have Tekton Encores because I’m a rock guy and want the PA experience like I’m at a live show with powerful bottom. I auditioned these Harbeth’s years back and found them to be a very "polite" speaker , seemingly more for classical /jazz listener...so I purchased the Tekton massive towers to the disdain of my sound engineer 😆 He calls them my "Star Trek speakers" Recently I found some 30.1’s at a reasonable price and took the plunge. My first feeling was they will never be able to compete with the bottom, but lets be reasonable and maybe find a different gear. After a couple of weeks I have found the Harbeth 30.1’s to be ultra clear and precise. Obviously they can’t keep up with the Tektons in the low end , but I have to say they are incredibly great in clarity and especially with audiophile tracks like Steely Dan.
HIGHLY recommend and I’m actually thinking about 40.1’s now (lord help me) and I do like the fact that they make their own speakers .. plus they are stunning cabs. |
@lalitk Thanks for the TAD CE1 recommendation. It's a little outside my budget but you never know if a used pair becomes available for sale. I need to figure out if there's a way to audition them first though. |
a word to the wise
@prof, who stated the above, has contributed perhaps the seminal thread here on his hearing and assessing a whole host of excellent, mid to upper tier loudspeakers - for all interested, especially relative newbies, i strongly suggest you use the search function, or click @prof to see his past posts, and find that lengthy, but exceptionally broad reaching, informative thread - the value of this forum is only in small part the live threads, it is what has been written, covered and discussed in the past... for others, who might feel a pair of used harbeths for under 2 grand is a poor value, well, neither @prof’s wonderful thread, nor i, can help you much... there is always youtube... |
Vandersteen 1Cis and Magnepan .7s are two speakers I would much rather own than the 3X costlier C7ES3s. The Vandys with the caveat of attenuating their treble by 1db (adjustable on the rear panel). The Vandys had as good a midrange with less cabinet coloration and deeper, tighter bass. The treble was smoother on the C7s but only by a smidge. The Magnepans are not as resolving in the highs as the C7s and other Harbeths but their midrange is a class above -- with a textural realism I haven’t heard matched by any of the BBC derivatives, and they can play louder. I have a pair of $3100 Revel Performas in a secondary system that have superior bass and treble to all the Harbs below the M40s, though admittedly, they do fall short in midrange presence and realism. Still, on balance, I feel they’re a superior speaker for a dual HT/Music setup.
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@bob540 , absolutely nothing. They are made better than most but in terms of sound quality there are many similar speakers that sound just as good and are much better values. |
few more points to add to the discussion, given recent comments 1. i don’t think there should be any exclusive emphasis on harbeths... it is just that it is the topic of this thread, where the op specifically asked what is so special about harbeths... indeed there are many brands of speakers, past and current who uphold the bbc heritage and design philosophy 2. spendor’s 7 and 9 series couldn’t sound more different than their brethren classic series of bbc lineage... the modern floorstanding spendors are designed and voiced to compete with focals, revels, magicos, that ilk... it is a purposeful bifurcated product strategy to cover both bases, sonically and aethestically, one is for a modern sound modern look (for better or worse), the other is, well, ’classic’... 3. vandy’s certainly belong in the same conversation with the fine bbc heritage speakers like harbeths in that they offer a non-hifi, easeful, non-hyper-detailed sound... and as you would expect, vandy’s also often engender the same criticisms (lack of ’super-clarity’, slam, sound ’dead’, blah blah) from those wanting a more overtly hifi presentation... but make no mistake -- to make vandy’s sound right, they need the right, hella strong and sweet amp, even moreso than harbeths... this to such a degree that upper end vandy’s build in the bass amp into the speakers to take a load off... 4. agree that new harbeths are now darned expensive, too expensive, and there are many alternatives out there, many of which are very fine indeed, if different in how they present music, especially vocals... but really good stuff is never cheap... and yet cost and value are in the eye of each beholder and wallet 5. finally, i am currently lucky to have both the spendor classic series sp100 r2 and the harbeth mon 40.3xd... each also presents music differently, in numerous subtle ways, subtle tonal differences, while maintaining many common, endearing attributes such as an utterly natural sound with excellent transparency, full bass, easeful, effortless presentation (and the ability play loudly without strain if so desired)...
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Since you own a pair of REL’s, consider auditioning the TAD CE1’s before settling with your next set of speakers. If I ever built a 2nd system, they will be my top choice. https://www.technicalaudiodevices.com/compact-evolution-one/ |
@ddafoe That’s an awesome list you got there. I am clearly a fan of the Harbeth sound, but I do believe that Harbeth is going to price themselves out of the market if they continue to raise their prices. I feel that SHL5+ and 30.2 (not 30.1 though) are very competitive with respect to their competition, but both P3ESR and 40.3 are in a segment where their competitors offer performance that is at least as good if if not better. I listened to Joseph Audio Perspectives last year, and I must say it really moved me like few other speakers have so far. If I ever decide t replace my SHL5+, the Perspectives are definitely at the top of my list. Also heard good things about Fleetwood Deville, but haven’t had a chance to listen to them in person yet. |
It goes without saying in this hobby that 'better ' is pretty arbitrary and about personal preference, especially for speakers. That being said, when explicitly looking at US MSRP, to me the outlier in the Harbeth line is the cost of the 40.3XD. e.g. https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/132377/Spendor-SPENDOR_CLASSIC_100-Speakers vs https://store.acousticsounds.com/d/154678/Harbeth_Speakers-Monitor_403_XD-Speakers I've seen some used 40.3s recently going for prices I would feel comfortable paying for them if I thought I could make them work in my smallish room. It is not like there are no other high quality speakers that MSRP around its used prices though. Here is my current upgrade list and I've been able to demo 3 of them so far with more to come shortly hopefully. I'm not going to argue any or all of these are 'better' than the $24.5K 40.3, but I think it is safe to say the 40.3 has some serious competition at its current price point in the US... Vandy Quatro Wood CT $18K Vivid Kaya 45 $18K Joseph Audio Perspective2 $15K Yamaha NS5000 $15K Spendor D9.2 $13K (currently own D9s when MSRP was $10K and 40.2 $15K). Fleetwood Deville $12.6K Fyne F1-8 and 7 series $10 to $14K |
[please excuse my poor English] Just a few thoughts: - buying a $2700 speaker blindly is like having your cat ordered on Amazon, and have it delivered by drone: completely, totally, dramatically nonsensical. But I am European (nobody’s perfect)... - Harbeth speakers sound better
In these conditions, they are terrific speakers if you favor timbres, emotion et delicacy (ex: unamplified acoustic music), at the expense of sheer energy and attack (ex: amplified rock concerts). I upgraded from M30.1 to M30.2 Anniversary. I compared them at home. The M30.2 Ann gives me more detail, is more transparent, lifelike. Its low-mid is less exaggerated. And the M30.2 Ann remains a highly musical monitor.
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On the "what is special about Harbeth?" question, here's part of my answer. Having auditioned an insane amount of speakers - the Harbeth have just stuck out in terms of being able to produce the "gestalt" of the human voice, as well as acoustic instruments. But human voice in particular. I've long been obsessed with live vs reproduced. Not that I expect a sound system to be able to reproduce sound truly indistinguishable from the real thing. Just the opposite! In paying attention to live vs reproduced it's only highlighted the differences between live vs reproduced. I've done recordings of my family's voices (as well as instruments we own being played) and done direct live vs reproduced comparisons with various speakers I've had (and also used those tracks sometimes when auditioning speakers). The ways some speakers do better in these comparisons than others was always fascinating to me. Just as when I audition speakers, when I go to audio shows I'm constantly comparing live vs reproduced. How? By comparing the sound of the live human voices talking all around, vs the sound of voices being played through the various sound systems. Inevitably many systems are playing a well recorded vocal that is supposed to impress us as sounding "realistic." Very often these are certainly producing a VERY vivid and clear "something" in between those speakers. But it's not really a human voice. It's usually still electronic sounding, like a voice "reconstructed through hard materials" and often insubstantial, like you can wave your hand through it. Human voices sound "organic," made of "damped flesh" and they have an acoustic density, where eyes closed you sense it has density, it's occupying space in the room. It's this amazing combination of clarity and the organic warmth and density that to me distinguishes the real thing. So at shows if they are playing a vocal I will close my eyes and listen to the (invetable) sound of someone talking in the room and compare it to the reproduced vocal. "What is it that the sound system isn't getting about the real thing?" It always shows up the artificiality of reproduced voices.
EXCEPT....to some degree...the Harbeth speakers for which I've done this "test." I remember a full day at the last show doing this eyes-closed "live vs reproduced voice" comparison and in a Harbeth room I was simply astonished to finally hear a speaker that came that close to the real thing. I'd listen to the real voices in the room, the voice coming through the Harbeth, and the "gestalt" in how it was reproducing the human voice was amazingly close. No other system had quite done that, to my ears. I owned some Harbeth speakers for a while and to this day the thing they did better than any other speaker I've owned, was to find the "human quality" in voices. Which is a pretty damned impressive thing, and something the designer should rightly be proud of. I certainly get why the brand is coveted by many. |
The question is what percentage of Harbeth speakers are reported to have such problems. We should be careful in drawing conclusions based on anecdotal evidence coming from a 'few' reports. Are we talking 2% or 40%? I have no affiliation with Harbeth in any shape or form, but when someone makes such sweeping generalizations, it makes sense to ask for more supporting evidence. |
to the OP, Finding the right speaker that does your music best will save money. Buy used until you find the sound you want. you can take all the time you need and resell at little to no loss. I own a pair of speakers that can't play metallica aat ear ringing levels, buty what they do with Annie Lennox, Patricia Barber,Beck, etc make up for it. If you like the Harbeth for most of your listening get 'em and buy a used pair of Legacy's for friday night. |
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I have to disagree on the urban legend notion, unless Harbeth has made a relatively recent unpublished revision to their woofers. The C7s really struggled to keep the music together at anything higher than moderate levels in my large room. Sounded almost like a voice coil bottoming, like one hears from an underdamped driver with a low x-max. Contrast that to my Stirling SB-88s which had zero issue playing to uncomfortable SPLs in the same room. The latter have a significantly larger woofer diameter but smaller cabinet. The P3ESR SEs I demoed also sounded compressed above moderate levels (~ 85db). That was in a smaller room. A quick search around the web reveals a few reports of busted Radial drivers. Of course, it could be that those owners were simply careless, but I'm not surprised by the pics of cracked cones and disbonded suspensions based on my auditions. All I know for certain is that I would be very cautious of the SPLs if I owned a pair.
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Harbeth woofers struggling to keep up and becoming compressed seems to be online urban legend rather than how they truly sound in practice- at least the latest versions. I heard the recent P3ESR being driven by 200 WPC MOSFET monoblocks and could not believe how impactful, loud and impressive they sounded. With my SHL5+ at home I have never experienced any issues with respect to compression, dynamics or sheer SPLs. Distortion from cabinets resonating is a controlled way is relatively benign to the ears as opposed to higher frequency driver distortion which is acutely audible and irritating. Harbeth crossovers manage their drivers extremely well and the ear test proves it. |
Thanks again for the responses. Obviously, there are differing opinions on the Harbeth “sound”. I see repeated comments that the pairing of Harbeth’s with the right electronics is key. Hegel in particular was recommended. I wonder how Harbeth’s would sound when paired with my Parasound A21 amp and Schiit Freya+ preamp? Would the purchase of Harbeth necessitate replacing my amp and pre to gain the full benefit? . . . can get expensive. I received an e-mail from The Music Room offering a 60 day trial period with the model of my choice. I am tempted to give it a try, though not sure I even want to spend that kind of money just now. |
@extravaganza, you make a very good point 👍 |
Will I buy harbeth speakers again?-No .I found them limited Why I bought them?because I got interested in them reading various positive posts abaut them here on audiogon and elsewhere 11years ago.Creating such posts might be one of the ways of hidden agenda-secret marketing tool.It cost nothing- just time:) Is there better speakers with midrange bloom,better dynamics,same price?yes it is:) |
@jjss49 , I lost somehow a long reply to you so I'll try again a shorter version. I have no 'stake' in this! I have an opinion, just like anyone else and just like you. Do I think Harbeth are overpriced? ...Yes Do I like their overly complex crossovers and the explanation for such? ... NO This is my opinion. I am not competing with anybody and have absolutely no agenda. You have been around this forum for a long time and will not be able to point to any of my posts where I have tried to sell anything. Most of my posts are about acoustics, speaking of which, looking at your room perhaps you could consider adding a few more treatments 😉 I have been asked to custom design and have. Mostly for bands, gigs and clubs. Also for an audio outlet. I do the prototyping and if approved sell them the design which includes dimensions of the cabinet and XO details. Am I in competition with Harbeth? LOL I called out tomic601 for posting stuff on XOs that just makes no sense and is misleading. It was not my intention to piss anybody's battery wet, but every single product on the market has those who think it's great and those who disagree. Just the way it is, is it not? To me I find Vandersteen's speakers to be better value. He does not indulge in aggressive marketing, they are sensibly priced, sound great and perform well with any genre. Again this is my opinion. and opinions are the reason and backbone of a forum. Lastly, you are welcome to pop over for a visit to hear first hand my designs. I mean that sincerely. I live in Ireland. |
I hardly see any commercial marketing of Harbeth. I think it is the influence of the fanbase more than anything else (e.g. look at discussions here on Audiogon). For myself, Harbeth is excellent for my listening (mostly classical music), and I do consider myself a fan. However I can see that Harbeth isn't ideal for all types of music. |
Lol! Harbeth has been around for 40 years and has a sizable customer base. I really don't think it needs to be 'helped'. I'm running the SHL5+ with a 50 watt class A tube amp, never heard better sound in my listening room. Obviously, it's not for everyone and is not perfect. Which speaker is? |
with the exception of ‘incredibly’ preceding inefficient, a pretty damn good exposition.. I have a pair of SCM11’s in my bedroom driven by Exposure Xxiii / 3010S2 monos and am not bothered at all by an overly analytical/clinical sound.. The Exposures make a wonderful pairing. |
I think it's the marketing prowess of the distributors more than Harbeth as a company, but effective marketing doesn't require an army of marketing majors. It really only takes one person who understands the market and what drives sales.
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@jjss49 +1. Bear in mind too that Harbeth are far from the only company constructing cabinets this way, in the classic BBC tradition. If this isn't your cup of tea, move on. |
curious -- what is your stake in this? there are people who like harbeths, others that don’t -- clearly you don’t, we get it sizeable portions of the hi-fi industry wouldn’t exist without the notion of sympathetic distortion that makes listeners feel the music sounds nicer, so what? ... there’d be no market for vacuum tube gear for instance harbeth is a small company, but been at it for many years, has a loyal following worldwide enjoying their product, refining speaker designs and concepts that arose out of bbc research into acoustics and monitor speaker design in the 1960’s -- they have stayed small, stuck to their knitting, know what their customers want and what their brand means... it’s a tough time for all businesses, i am sure they aren’t immune, given covid, brexit and so on... but what’s it to you? and what’s your product (as a proudly self claimed speaker designer)? do you have a commercially available product? how is it doing? put cards on table please... i am sure your speakers are absolutely and precisely accurate to the source, free of any distortion, use only the best parts extant, perhaps i can purchase a pair? there is a long thread on this forum currently about users here with hidden agendas ... or is it that you simply enjoy pissing on others’ happiness? |
@avanti,
This is distortion by definition. The resonating cabinets are producing their own sound like a musical instrument and this is superimposed on the signal. Hmmmm!
So on the one hand we have intentional distortion built into the cabinet and on the other hand we have a brilliant crossover design to elliminate distortion. This thread is really not helping the brand. It seems that if you want to experience distortion, er um sorry, no distortion, whatever, that the only way to really hear this schitzophrenic speaker is with a Hegel amp 🙄
Could you please elaborate on this. I design speakers and can assure you that everything in a crossover is in the signal path. Everything. |
I run a pair of 40.2's and the the key difference compared to my other speakers (Dynaudio C2 Plats and various hybrid electrostatic speakers inc Apogee 6 and 8's) for my setup up is the full range and dynamics I get operating them at low volume. They are my number 1 speaker set. I use an Accuphase A70 and McIntosh C22/MC75's to drive them. |
Putting it in perspective, Harbeth is a tiny company with 15 employees. Here is their UK business filing (link). Their budget is shockingly small to me (but I work in the tech industry). Hardly what I would call a "powerhouse in marketing". |
Just call ahead and explain that you want to experience what all the fuss is about. They've almost certainly had similar inquiries.
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All but the largest Harbeths struggle when pushed. Seems their mid-woofers simply aren’t designed for high power handling. Their similar competitors often sound better and can play louder before compression sets in. Similar to Focals, their midrange tone sounds unnatural and slightly smeared to my ears (another listener called it "glassy"), the main reason for which I don’t understand the hype surrounding the brand and its Radial material. They do manage to have excellent driver integration, and as such, decent imaging. If coherency is top priority, they may still warrant an audition. I honestly feel Harbeth is one of the most over-hyped brands on the market concerning overall performance, especially at current retail prices. But Harbeth is becoming the Bose of British speakers -- they’re such a powerhouse in marketing that you can tell folks that there are better alternatives until you’re blue in the face -- doesn’t matter, they’re going to sell droves of them regardless.
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I drive my M30.1’s with a Pass INT-25 integrated and supplement the 30.1’s with an SVS Micro 3000 sub. Having heard dozens, more probably hundreds of different systems over the past 30 years or so I’d be hard pressed to think of a combo I like more, for MY musical tastes and space. I lean hard to acoustic music and vocals. I like to hear individual instruments with their timbre and color intact. I like to hear space. I want to remove myself from the "real" world and imagine the performers in my apartment; on many recordings I can do that with these speakers; they’re a great match with the Pass INT-25. there’s a sense of intimacy and delicacy that I just don’t hear with most other speakers. I’m thinking about upgrading to 30.2 XD’s but outside of a pair of those for about $5 or $5.5k I wouldn’t even know what to consider near that price.
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i too owned early mon 40’s -- in the 2003/4 time frame iirc (these were the original monitors, grey britex cabinets with side handles)... had them for about a year, sold my spendor sp100’s to get them -- a big mistake which i continually regretted till last year, when i finally managed to get another set of 100’s back i had roger modjeski’s wonderful rm9-2 tube amp and an aragon 8008 ss amp back then... neither did well with the 40’s, the tube amp left the bass overblown and uncontrolled... the aragon took care of that but flattened the imaging and made the treble way too ’hifi’ so i too sold the 40’s after a year or so, went to big proac’s, which i just loved... the mon 40’s certainly need a lot of amplifier bass damping factor, and also, placement is quite critical for finding the right bass balance in room (well well away from boundaries, tough for such a humongous box)... but then the mids and treble are quite revealing, the solid stateness of the powerhouse aragon called too much attention to itself, and not in a good way all this was a real lesson in getting the room/speaker placement/amp combo implemented just right... learned the hard way... |
There are some that love the sound of these speakers and truly enjoy them and that's what the hobby is all about. If you enjoy the music that comes out of them and it makes you happy......then money well spent. I owned the Harbeth 40.1's and sold them in 5 months. Please see my thread if you want from years ago on why I didn't like these speakers. The responses I got from my post ranged from ; the cables you used ere wrong, you had the wrong electronics, the room wasn't right for the Harbeth's......etc, etc. My thinking and it is of my opinion and school of thought that if it is a truly good speaker , it will sound good no matter what cables, what electronics or room that they are in, they could and should sound even better if the upstream variables that I have were well thought out and addressed. Mr. Shaw knows what he is doing ; they were just not a speaker for me. |
alan shaw often doesn’t do himself (nor his speaker owners) favors in how he issues goofy (usually self serving) blanket statements about amps, cables, stands and how they add/detract from the speakers’ performance... he thinks he is being ’strategic’ in wanting the focus and consumer spending power focused on the buying the best harbeth speaker, focus less on ancillaries... experienced users see through this... i do agree that prat and speed are not harbeth’s shining strengths, though the upper models do that pretty darn well, if properly driven atc’s are another matter, while also being an excellent british make, they present a totally different set of attributes, i still have two pair, they are leaner cleaner, utterly unforgiving and demanding of pristine source material and upstream gear... incredibly inefficient and revealing as in for true in-studio monitoring use level of clarity... they play what you feed them with all blemishes warts wrinkles right up front... some may want that type of presentation in their homes, many don’t |
Guess I did not directly answer the question- really it is how they sound that makes them special but how they get there is the answer. They use a lossy tuned cabinet resonance design that gives them a controlled richness. The proprietary midrange driver material is important to the tonal accuracy. The overall voicing is extremely important. Harbeth "voices" their speakers via the crossover components to give them a sound they want- through lots of iterative testing. What you hear is not the result of designing crossovers with simulation software and calling it a day. The crossovers are designed to make the speaker sound accurate and pleasing to the ear, not a computer program. The crossover design also incorporates circuits to assist the drivers in sounding as good as they can by eliminating distortion, frequency peaks and making them easier to drive. Lots of art expertise and back and forth testing goes into Harbeth speakers. They walk that fine line between detail and forgiveness like no other speaker on the market. |
Quite simply if you care about the sound of music and can hear the differences between speakers at their best you will pick the ones that sound best to you. In my case after listening to hundreds of speakers at home, friend's places, dealers and audio shows my Harbeth model sounds the best to my ears regardless of price. I would love to spend less but unfortunately the sound I like comes at a price and below that price the results diminish greatly to my ears.
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and it shows. While I can admire many things about Harbeth speakers I could never own a pair. I prefer ATC’s blend of compromises at the relevant price points and feel they cover more bases in terms of musical genre. In particular, I believe Harbeth trail ATC in PRAT, which Alan Shaw openly declines to recognise as a valid musical/design concept. |
May I ask when did this happen? I noticed few complaints on the cabinet of the Harbeth on another forum. Fade marks and uneven blotches on the cherry wood veneer of the SHL5+ and 40.1 or 40.2. |
On the Harbeth forum, Alan Shaw said they were careful about negotiating Brexit and the pandemic, and he says the company remained financially solid. Actually one of their biggest problems is meeting demand (already presold for half of this year). Like other businesses they are having problems in the supply chain. They lost one of their local cabinet makers and had trouble finding a replacement that meets their standards. |
Alan Shaw is obsessed about accurately reproducing the human voice, and he brings up the topic regularly on Harbeth's forum. Shaw's reasoning is that our hearing developed from millions of years of evolution to be hyper sensitive at picking up subtle nuances in the human voice. Therefore speaker performance is especially critical in the human vocal range where our hearing is most discerning. He has talked about using recordings of spoken speech during their engineering development and how it highlights qualities that may not be apparent from music. This focus explains the strengths and weaknesses of Harbeth speakers. If you can get the human voice right, a lot of things come along with it. It is the reason for the famed Harbeth midrange and why it is particularly good at reproducing unamplified acoustic instruments. However, they haven't given the same attention to reproducing electronic sounds and dynamics such as in rock music. |
I find that so amusing, as only a few years ago Alan Shaw was quoted as saying that his well fettled 1970’s transistor amplifiers were good enough for product development and that he didn’t think any worthwhile improvements would be made by upgrading. Something must have happened to clear away the fog. Next thing he’ll be buying decent speaker cable.. |
