What exactly is PRaT???

This could be why Sonus Faber speakers have PRAT and others do not:

Sonus faber Lumina II Amator Bookshelf Speakers: Crossover: Optimized amplitude/phase response for optimal space/time performance.

Optimized amplitude/phase response for optimal space/time performance Hybrid IFF-Paracross solution.

The IFF circuitry and the phase coherent philosophy ensure perfect rendering of the virtual sound stage in three dimensions. The new filters also offer greater resolution and more rigorous and coherent reproduction.

@soix as a musician, do you feel comfortable with and understand “swing” as it it pertains to music?

Swing: ±music: to produce a bouncy, uneven rhythm - Wikionary

I intuit that PRaT and “swing” are related.  A hifi system that provides insight into music where swing is an essential element, like David Grisman’s bands of the late 70s and early 80s, or almost anything coming of New Orleans, would be considered to be good at reproducing PRaT.

kn

Typical loudspeaker step response:

TAD Micro Evolution One loudspeaker

The tweeter’s output leads that of the midrange, which in turn leads that of the woofer. How the heck do you think you will hear PRAT when all three driver’s are out of sync? And this speaker ain’t cheap . . . . .

@clustrocasual Yes, I apparently and admittedly don’t get it. I’ve played drums in bands for decades and wrote professional reviews of high-end audio equipment for 17 years for the Soundstage network. Do tell, what is your system and what’s your experience in high-end audio other than you just know it when you hear it? I can tell just by the words and phrases you use that you have no idea what you’re talking about and have little experience in playing music or high-end audio. Please regale us with your system and expertise.

@soix

Like you said in the original post, you don't get it. That's correct.

@clustrocasual  No offense, but none of this makes any sense to me whatsoever.  Define what the “natural energy” is in a recording to me because it means nothing and is completely nebulous.  Also, what are “fake dynamics” and who are you to determine what’s fake if you didn’t make the recording?  And how can PRaT change throughout a song???  Honestly this sounds like utter jibberish to me, but whatever floats your boat. 

Prat encompasses the full energy in the music or instrument to begin with. It’s the natural energy, like plucking a high end guitar versus a cheap one. The high end guitar will give off more prat, and allow more expression.

Getting prat in playback is aligning that energy of the recording and performance with the playback system.

The term dynamics is not clear enough - some hardware can make "fake" dynamics where everything sounds sharper or transients are more intense, but it may have nothing to do with what’s really in the recording. Power conditioners are a good example of this.

Prat can change throughout a song or within a mix.

Not all recordings have much prat to begin with.

Most people dont understand what Prat sounds like until you get into really high end, transparent systems. Even then, million dollar systems often don’t have it. They can be loud, shouty, "dynamic", but they aren't representing the energy of the music at each step of the song, as the performance evolves.

I think precision in defining the leading and trailing edge of notes (or when a sound starts and stops) makes a difference in improving the perception of rhythm and timing. What I hear as better "PRaT" is that interactions between different instruments and voices are easier to comprehend.

Well I’m no monk but I recently put together a Harbeth and Naim system. I can say this combination did something in the ’feel’ sense that I’ve always read about. There was a certain veil that was lifted without the system being aggressive in any way. Typically when I’d put together a "musical" system by the standard agreement of many audiophiles (or higher percentage) I’d miss some of that bite or grunge when the music called for it. Also when I would look for a larger presentation than a system could offer (with such a small speaker) I would miss that scale.

So for me I got the "sense’ or "feel" that everything was good even though all recordings became listenable. Even though the scale was a bit smaller. So it was less compromise and more like, Yes, this system can do it really well! As far as Pace, rhythm and timing, maybe it has to do with a smaller, tighter speaker that relies a bit more cabinet for the presentation? Anyway, it led to some louder listening and lots of enjoyment. I did use a sub at times because they don’t dig deep. Even that was okay most of the time (not really missed much). So to me the prat was to make the experience all around musical without lacking any of the things that a lesser experience can frustrate us with (and there are many).

Hopefully this helps, and yes the toe tap was there. I’ve since parted with this system because I didn’t like where the monitors were positioned relative to traffic pattern in the room. I don’t like risking damage of nice gear being knocked over. I also just like to try new gear if I have the opportunity to do so with minimal loss. Glad I tried this.

Sorry nothing we have said helps. But as I am sure I have mentioned, it is not easy to hear... took me a long long time. And it has nothing to do with drums or timing at a macro level. It is across the sound field. It is something that I read about and just plain did not perceive for several decades. Then one day I put together different experiences across time and I got it. After that, like some of the more nuanced variables... it is obvious and becomes un-hearable. You are curious... one day... it will probably hit you.., and you’ll go, "OH! that’s it!" Keep at it.

@soix +1

After four pages of discussion, I am pretty sure Agoners can’t help you with this, unless they are a Buddhist monk or a licensed psychologist.

@knownothing I agree. Nothing anyone has said here has helped or made any sense to me whatsoever — I just don’t get it, but that’s ok. At this point I’m thinking it’d take a direct A/B comparison between good and bad PRaT systems to get it through my head cause words ain’t cutting it and this seems more like a “feel” thing that needs to be heard to be understood. Anyway, in the meantime I guess I’ll just be like those who say they can’t hear a difference between streamers and go forward in happy ignorance. 😜

@soix After four pages of discussion, I am pretty sure Agoners can’t help you with this, unless they are a Buddhist monk or a licensed psychologist.  Hopefully you will continue keeping the beat as you play and listen to music - Happy New Year.

kn

https://youtu.be/AnCVy1joH3g?si=2s1uy1P1mLqqeCaP

@gbmcleod  As I mentioned, I’m a drummer so I not only know the beat, I’m the one who keeps it so the dancers know where it is and I still don’t get how PRaT translates (or doesn’t) to an audio system.  Sorry but your analogy doesn’t translate to me at all, but neither has anyone else’s for that matter so it remains a mystery to me. 

If one knows how to dance, one knows pace, rhythm and timing. In dance, it’s where you put your foot down on the beat. Not so much in ballet but very much present in African-Jazz or pure jazz dance. It’s not a complex concept. Been around for ages. The Brits just express it that way. Look at any Bob Fosse number and that will display for you the sense of prat. Or better yet, go play a dance song, and then DANCE! Congratulations! If you put your foot down on the beat, you're DOING prat. 

Baroque music (some of it) depends on prat to keep the rhythms crisp, and, in some cases, turn on a dime, because the composition of some Baroque music depends on exact timing.

@bolong that is an excellent descriptor for what audio systems that lack PRAT do when played.

kn

@jwei

I haven’t been into audio long enough to associate this term with any brand. When I researched my Hegel H390, I encountered mentions of its tendency to "move the music along" and once in my system, this was indeed apparent. It was not only noticeably different from other integrateds I’d owned but also from the much-more-costly systems owned by two friends -- both long-time audiophiles. Perhaps PRaT is just a marketing term but so far I haven’t encountered another that appears to be a more appropriate description of this particular phenomenon. OK -- "Boogie Factor" -- maybe. But that’s not very specific, 

Because I’ve discovered rhythmic engagement is crucial to my listening enjoyment, the fact that this "propulsive" capacity was repeatedly mentioned in connection with the Hegel definitely piqued my curiosity. However, I recognize that each of us has different priorities when it comes to sonic attributes so it's understandable that this capacity might not matter so much to you or others, here.  

@stuartk 

Actually no.  I did not try to listen to equipment touted specifically for good PRaT. I had little real curiosity for what I felt was just another marketing term.

@jwei 

When I first read about music reproduced with good pace, rhythm, and timing, I assumed the system had elevated midbass and treble to emphasize drums, cymbals, etc. and an uncompressed dynamic range.

 

You say when you "first heard... [you] assumed..." 

Does this mean you have subsequently clarified it for yourself through direct experience or. . . ? 

Still prattling on about PRaT??!

When I first read about music reproduced with good pace, rhythm, and timing, I assumed the system had elevated midbass and treble to emphasize drums, cymbals, etc. and an uncompressed dynamic range.

OP

Perhaps it comes down to the ability of the amplifier to respond rapidly and fully to the current demands of the signal. This is most prominent when dealing with transients.

Transient as we know are sounds that very rapidly rise and fall, such as a kick or snare drum. When replaying such a recorded sound, the amplifier needs to almost instantaneously supply a peak of current to drive the loudspeaker to deliver the sound.  If the power supply is inadequate, then the current supply will be limited, and the dynamics of the sound are reduced, losing the sense of impact from the recording (PRaT) etc. 

Indeed, for so called PRaT speakers must be essential to bring out the pace rhythm and timing… the electronics certainly can’t do it on its own… there needs to be a synergy. 

N

OP, interesting question and one I have often wondered about myself.  

How do we know that what one person means by PRaT is the same as another, especially when communicating on an internet forum rather than sitting in a room together listening to music.

N

PRAT was what happened when the Grateful Dead were "on." They sure as heck were not "on" all the time, but when they were the joint was hoppin'.

Hmm, it is indeed a very simple track. But, the PR&Tty kid is able to cry his way into the souls of analytical old men.

Mk.Gee - Are you looking up

https://youtu.be/DxdKr5PmlPw?si=SRj4flzUpOR4WXPZ

PR&T ...whatever....

My introduction to the term came in the 1980’s, from members of the Linn "cult". Linn dealers would put on an LP, and act as if they couldn’t keep their feet from a tappin'. What a simple-minded concept, one entirely too subjective to try and debate.

@audiom3 Understand the term 'sarcasm' much?

Yes, there is no such thing as PRaT in a live concert because you are listening to live instruments. PRaT refers only to the reproduction of music with a focus on how accurately the leading and trailing edges of notes or sound waves are reproduced, which may not match the original live performance.

@ghdprentice You're welcome! Yes, 40 years of being a drummer certainly doesnt hurt.  Knowledge of 'good' sound quality?  The only parameter with good SQ, is realistic or accurate. A cymbal (keeping it simple) that sounds compressed (ie squished dynamics), is not natural or accurate. No such thing as PRaT in a live concert. The band either has it, or they dont. If they do, people get into it. If they dont, they get booed off the stage in extreme situations.

@audiom3 

Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comment. I am sure it comes from deep knowledge and long study of the nuances of high end sound qualities.

PRaT, the most asinine term ever invented in audio.  Talk about doing audiophiles a disservice....  My version of 'PRaT'? The volume knob. If I want to bang my head, I crank that S up! 

Martin Colloms(Author)

High Performance Loudspeakers(Book)

Chapter Five (Specifically 5.4.5)

https://www.stereophile.com/content/pace-rhythm-dynamics

@richardbrand 

LOL!  I never thought it could be hazardous... ;-)

@dogeardaudio

As a teenager I was air-conducting (might even have been to Pierre Monteux’s Elgar) when I accidentally hooked a vase on the mantlepiece and hurled it across the room. Mind you, Georg Solti (the Screaming Skull) got so carried away, he stabbed himself with his own baton ...

@richardbrand 

Classical music most certainly benefits from a system with PRaT.  In that case, I call it the "air-conducting factor." ;-)  Just the other day I listened to a marvelous stereo broadcast of Pierre Monteux and the Boston Symphony performing Strauss's "Don Juan" at Tanglewood.  If that performance doesn't get you out of your chair and waving your arms, nothing will.;-) So much joyful swing in the rhythms and phrasing!  I want to hear Furtwangler pounce on Brahms, or Rosenthal turn Debussy into a dance date, or Klemperer hammer away at Beethoven, just as much as I want to hear Basie bounce or Goodman swing. ;-)

Herb’s latest and recent reporting on an actively configured vintage horn/tube setup, a rarity (i.e.: active) with this kind of setup, where he goes:

A couple of minutes into the first demo disc, I started bouncing on the couch raving about the boogie-PRaT factor. [...]

Notice the inclusion of the more layman’s term "boogie-factor" as a variation of PRaT, the latter of which seems to have been described around here as a somewhat over-complicated and esoteric attainment to come by through years of audiophile cultivation and final revelation(?). I can only assume that for those it’s a rare (and late) trait to have experienced, not because it’s the Sasquatch of audio qualities but simply due to setup choices that didn’t bring out the boogie-factor (sorry, PRaT) in a prevalent fashion. Oh, I can imagine seeing PRaT entering what has otherwise been a stale audio serving through years being something of revelation when it adds up to the other qualities that has been meticulously harnessed over time, but making it a matter of an "enlightened progression" over decades is just going off the rails in my book.

Maybe to some it’s the other way ’round; they attained PRaT long ago and earlier in their audiophile journey, and only later added the perhaps more conventional audiophile traits of imaging, resolution, airiness, balance of presentation, etc. As is I can definitely attest to the importance of boogie-factor/PRaT as a vital sonic ingredient, on top of many other things.

Ah, Chris Rea.  First heard "The Road to Hell" in a clapped-out army truck descending into the Great Rift Valley in Kenya, with truck wrecks littering the landscape.

Later I was MC for a conference and had a copy with me.  Played it as attendees drifted in, the morning after the big dinner.  A colleague rushed up: "the sound system is broken".  All he could hear was raindrops and windscreen wipers.  Then the first crescendo hit.

Chris really cares about the quality of sound, and all his recordings are studio-made.  I heard him live in Melbourne and he was absolutely mortified that he could not get the exact sound he wanted.  He never toured the USA

@steakster

You’re welcome. Glad someone found it worthwhile. Those guys are two of the best player-teachers online.  

@calvinandhobbes 

I think you’re right on the mark based on my listening experiences. Two categories of components that seem to inhibit PRaT from my perspective are:

1. High mass turntables
2. High powered Class AB amplifiers

I never experienced PRaT until I acquired my Hegel H390 (Class A/B rated at 250 watts @8 ohms). 

@panzrwagn "Overall, I believe PRaT is fundamentally about controlling and minimizing stored energy within a system. It is the release of that stored energy that smears the sound, robbing the music of PRaT."

I think you’re right on the mark based on my listening experiences. Two categories of components that seem to inhibit PRaT from my perspective are:

1. High mass turntables
2. High powered Class AB amplifiers

Both store a good amount of energy from what I know: high mass turntables are slow to release vibration and higher power amplifiers need larger power supplies to handle the bigger current demands.

@bolong Agreed with your statement that "It requires a clean start and stop of a transient". I agree that I don't think it has anything to do with timing per se, but rather having sharp leading and trailing edges for when a sound wave starts and stops.

PRAT is Brat.

@soix have you ever listened to a Naim system from source to speakers?  Or Naim electronics with ATC speakers?

I got back into the hifi hobby about 20 years ago.  I was traveling for work at the time and would visit brick and mortar stores all across the US, and I listened to all kinds of systems from budget to quite exotic.  There were surprisingly few setups that actually moved me.  One that did was a Naim CD player and Nait XS integrated amplifier with Naim floor standing speakers.  Not the last word in detail or power, but it just sounded so incredibly “right”.  The music had momentum and flow, and yes it made me want to tap my toe.  I later decided that is what people are talking about when they say “PRAT”, and wondered what engineering trick or emphasis was employed to achieve it.  I could have listened to that system all day.  I had an opportunity to hear some very high end Naim gear at the time, and while the detail, lack of distortion, spatial representation and power of the music were clearly better, the music seemed a bit more sterile compared to their more entry level gear.  (Naim’s newest higher end gear has it all however.)

I have thought about what I consider to be “PRAT” a lot since then, and have been chasing it in my systems, while also trying to achieve what I consider convincing imaging, dynamics and tone.  If you don’t “hear” PRAT in yours or others systems, but you are enjoying what you’re hearing, I wouldn’t worry about it.  I enjoyed listening to recorded music immensely for years before becoming aware of PRAT, but now I can’t un-hear it.

Someone mentioned Tony Rice previously.  I find his work with David Grisman’s Quintet and Grisman’s dawg music in general from the late 70s and early 80s to really swing and be loaded with PRAT.  The recording by MOKAVE called Afrique is another great recording to test your system’s PRAT capabilities.

YMMV

kn

@bolong ...Re Cha-cha cha...."Fascinating, but you can't dance to it..."

Dense....dwarf star alloy level, if speed read you will bruise one's brain...

MHO, and I'm stuck with it. ;)

@immatthewj ... It's been and will continue for quite awhile, an Experience.
Can't say recommended....but the Pause to look about you and consider....😔

Yes, back to PRaT falls... ;)

Hey, if what you listen to doesn't make you 'move' in some fashion, physically and/or emotionally, in yet another mho, you're listening to the wrong stuff.

Ultimately, the means that you apply to create that grand illusion for as long as you love or tolerate it despite the bugs ignored to do so....

...IS the Point.

*blink*

PRaTically guaranteed .... ;)

'ciao, J

I've posted that in my opinion PRaT relates to the time domain, not the frequency domain that we usually talk about.  To the person that never listens to symphonic music, I would ask if that extends to films which use such music to underscore the drama?

Classical music almost always does have a beat, it is just not as in-your-face as some other genres and can be very complex and rewarding if you get it.  A big orchestra faces a big timing problem though - the visual clues from the conductor travel at the speed of light (near instantaneous) but sound is much slower.  It takes almost 1/10th of a second to travel 30-meters.  The Sydney Opera House Concert Hall stage is about 19-meters wide and is small for a major concert venue, because of the concrete shell surrounding it, although it is comparable with the Berliner Phiharmoniker  I pity the organist sitting high towards the roof looking in his rear-vision mirror down at the conductor in the distance!

Nevertheless conductors like John Wilson can make a good orchestra rock ...

Tony Rice, one of the legendary flatpickers, explains how his bands let the music breathe by mixing beats or a he rightfully calls it "pulse.

"Tony Rice On Time In Music

Just got the Prat reference 

Lerxst, Dirk and Pratt will not soon be forgotten as the best rock band of all time.

Let loose the the dogs of war

....20' above it, 50 yards from the mudfield....slept through the night mostly, waking to heavy rain and the winds.  Nil damage.

@asvjerry  , straying from OP's topic, I am happy to read that you were spared from the major devastation.  It was horrific to see on television, and I cannot imagine what it would be like to actually experience losing everything.  PRaT takes a back door to that.

Back on topic, after following this thread for a bit now, as nearly as I can ascertain, PRaT seems to be in the ear of the beholder.  If it gets your toe tapping it has PRaT?  In that case, although my system is hardly 'end game',  I've been listening to and experiencing PRaT for quite some time without realizing it.  ​​​​​​