Years ago I owned the original B&W Nautilus 800, the pre diamond tweeter version. Like them in the shop but could never get them to image well. May have been the 9x13x8 room or the c-j tube amps. Eventually replaced them with Wilson Watt-Puppy 7s. Marvelous.
The point of this is a couple of visits recently to my local top line dealer... a Magico shop, and all powerful high prices electronics. Nice speakers but for the $$$, not for me.
Admittedly I'm a Wilson guy, now with the terrific Yvette's. My local high end guy had just picked up the B&W line to fill in the lower price gap in the shop. He had set up the new 800 D3, so took a listen. No more kevlar mid range...good. But you could hear each driver on each side playing. Tweeter was tweeting, the woofer was woofing, and the mid range was screaming. Terrible.
A couple of weeks later I was back in and there they were again. He asked me to listen again. Just amazing. They needed a few hundred hours to break in and now sounded terrific. Really gave his $100K Magico's a run for the money. We both agreed the B&W's, well run in, were a terrific value. You just never know what your listening town making these comparisons...
Someone mentioned Totem. Yes! When I hear them and then see all the praise, "over-rated" certainly describes my mindset. (Again...pure subjectivity...0
My take away so far is: "I am happy i don't own B&W speakers." Early on when choosing a desktop system I did a comparison (A-B switch) between B&W & Martin Logan (15's) bookshelf speakers. The B&W sounded pretty damn good and I kept fighting with myself thinking, you can't chose the M-L over B&W. Eventually i just went with what sounded better to me, and in this case it was M-L. So, in the end it was just marketing that i was really fighting with. For the Record, i am currently using Thiel TM3's for desktop application driven my M700's. (no need for subwoofer). This is justified bc i only paid $700.00 for the Thiel's at auction, brand new in the box with stands. And to me, the TM's are pretty damn good sounding speakers although i would not have paid $3,000 for them. On the shelf taking a break waiting to be called in off the bench are my coveted & very close runner ups, Burchart S400's-(very fine speaker). In the big room, "Surround Sound System." Paradigm Prestige 95-F Towers/Center/Rear Surrounds & SVS subwoofer.
Klipsch Cornwalls are the best in the line for efficiency and accuracy in my opinion. I play almost only vinyl and have a very high end turntable and nice amp. I owned a pair of Klipschorns(top of the line) as well and as far as accuracy and depth of stage I believe the Cornwalls are superior. I don't know about the new ones but my pair are from the early '80s.
Goldenear Reference are so overrated. $8500 for speakers is still ton of money (to me at least) I absolutely loved their sound, BUT I think the Triton ones are amazing and sound close enough to the TRef for most people without paying a 60% premium. Law of diminishing returns kicking in big time.
I had them side by side for three months playing with Hegel H160 and Rogue Cronus Magnum II / Ayre Codex and did not see a huge difference that some reviewers did. But then again, I ain’t selling full page ads either !!!
Overrated: Dynaudio, Totem, Audio Note ( especially price for this kind of 2-way monitors in poor cabinet )
Underrated: many active speakers : Backes&Muller, Geithain they play so much better than passive in similar price , and You dont need any ( expensive ) amp
in re: millercarbon Most overrated? Easy. Vandersteen.
LOL. The Vandersteen 2CE in all its iterations is one of the best-selling speakers of all time, for a reason. Great value. I’ve owned a pair for 20 years and will be getting the latest version soon, only because I can’t afford the Treo CT or Quatro CT. The Quatro CT, in the >$15k price bracket, has some good competition, for sure. I recently auditioned them powered by a full AR stack ... stunning. Note: I’ve been to more than a few hi-fi shows and heard systems fetching >$100k or well beyond.
I’m a Vandy fan, but not a fanboi. I have been trying to find and consider other floor standing "full range" speakers that perform as well as the 2CEII and are as good a value, in their price range, and so far it’s slim pickings.
Still using the Dahlquist DQM-9s. To me the quality and sound for the money I have not found better. Sure overtime they need to be re-foamed and maybe new caps but after all these years, still happy. Also like the older Infinity.
For me the KEF-LS-50. I tried to like it but eventually ended up selling it. Way overrated in my opinion. I tried it with many different amps and configurations and in different rooms. Nothing seemed to work for me.
For the money, a pair of 300 dollar Elac UB5 is hard to beat. Sure, it's not a high end speaker, but for 300 bucks it is a damn good speaker. The difference in sound between that and other more expensive speakers can be minimal.
I'm showing my age but those vintage JBL L100 speakers that so many people raved about in the 70's and 80's sounded just awful. A couple friends had them, one of them had a 4 channel quad system, and they were so proud. "Don't these sound great?!" "Uhhhh......"
On the modern end I have heard 4 different models of Wilsons at two audio shows. I just don't get it. They sound like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. The best sounding of the 4 were the smallest pair, Sashas I think. I can safely say that it wasn't the room because next door to the worst sounding demo (Alexandrias I believe) was an identical room with Sonus Faber Aidas that sounded gorgeous. Please note - I'm not saying that the speakers are bad (OK, maybe overrated) but Wilson must be targeting a particular kind of listener that craves microscopic detail over everything else. In one sense I have to give them credit for taking the characteristic of detail resolution to its logical extreme.
+1 for Sanders being underrated. My model 10e system with (2) Magtech stereo amps and LMS (loudspeaker management system) produces some of the most lifelike music I've heard and plays quite loud (unusual for 'stats).
Joseph Audio (expensive speaker with off the shelf drivers, no low diffraction cab or waveguide even, can easily be replicated for a cheaper price).
Ah, naive "argument-from-cost-of-materials." And "you can DIY this stuff."
Never gets old ;-)
The Joseph speakers have garnered rave reviews and have been consistently rated at or near "best of show" year after year at audio shows, by picky audiophiles and reviewers. You can’t just go on "materials used" but on the skill of the designer in achieving through much time and effort the balance between the drivers, crossovers, cabinet etc. And it’s one thing to achieve the sound, another to have a viable speaker-selling business.
The "I could build that in my basement for cheaper" crowd never seem to get out of their basement to show they can produce a speaker that can receive that much conformity in praise, while being a viable product.
Underrated: PSB- most all of them Totem Forest and others higher end Monitor Audio Spendor Wharfedale Klipsch Forte III and some of the Heritage line Epos Bryston van L speakerworks Many budget pieces from big names like JBL, Polk, Yamaha, SVS
Overrated: B&W (some) Devore (great but very pricey and performance can be inflated by reviewers)
This thread cannot signify something, beside a complete description of the room, tweaks, and audio gear associated with the speakers... Yesterday I had listen to Magnepan MMG a pair of speakers with a relatively fair price and on the top audiophile field...The sound was " bad", unbeknownst to the owner himself, because of the level of noise; the sound was less interesting than my own speakers that are however in a totally other sub level category than this big MMG...The reason is NO speakers sound at their potential level without cleaning of the electro-magnetic field of the house first, of the room after that, without serious controls of vibrations, without controls of the acoustic of the room, and without at last pairing with the right amplifier and dac ( I will not add here other essential tweaks that are very potent and necessary)…Except for the pairing, all other means were ignored by the owner of MMG...
My speakers are only good,(Mission Cyrus 781) not the best in a possible level of comparison with top level one, but yesterday these speakers of mid-level grade were more ,way more better than a pair of top level speakers (MMG)… The reason is simple: my room is under treatment, my vibrations control in efficiency, and the electrical line of not only the house but of my room is prepared for being the best embedding for the speakers... I had with that astounding tweaks that can elevate any speakers to his true potential... Anybody can say that Harbeth Tannoy, Focal, Splendor, Dynaudio or MMG are more than good...Money can talks also...
But the question, the true one to ask is : How can we put our ordinary speakers on their true top own accessible potential level, be it mid-fi speakers or top one ? If not for this question, the other question is what are the best speakers money can buy ? This second question is of little interest and is the only question asked everywhere... When you have no limit of money you dont even need to read article about that question, you go somewhere with top level speakers at high price, you listen to them , you smile, you buy....And you call them the best speakers big money can buy...And the word "tweaks" repulse you, or suggest at your revolting mind that perhaps your speakers are not at the peak of the world...And you dont give a back thought at all to this fuss about audiophile obsession with good sound...Your money had already talk loud after all...But I am poor and I must make the better with the lesser... It is possible trust me...
Wildfoxinn, sorry your perception of the B&W vs Paradigm Personas is wildly off base.
B&W Diamond tweeter with a Kevlar composite midrange driver
vs
Paradigm Persona, Pure Beryillium tweeter, with a pure Beryillium midrange.
B&W no wave guide
vs
Paradigm waveguide for both tweeter and midrange driver.
Persona composite pressure bent completely curved non parallel cabinet mdf fused glue layer cabinet
vs
B&W multi chamber plywood cabinet with matrix bracing and composite midrange pod with top mounted tweeter.
Paradigm Persona 9H four woofer design with active room correction and self amplified bass
vs
B&W 800 Passive louspeaker without room correction.
The only way these two designs are remotely similar is that they both fall into the uber resolution camp.
As per Joseph Audio being easily replicated Mr. Joseph’s crossover designs are patented and based on the JSE Infinite slope design, not to mention the years he spent voicing the loudspeakers, also his "off the shelf" parts may be custom made versions of the same drivers. Hey we are not going to disagree with you we think the speakers are a bit expensive for what you get however, many people love them.
Jtofish, RIGHT ON MAN! Speaker A can sound great or poor depending on the electronics, source components cabling and room. Speaker B with those same components may sound better because of a system synergy that works better either with the equipment, source components, cabling or room.
This is why we match brighter speakers like the Personas with warmer electronics, Coda, Electrcompaniet, Naim, Krell. Same thing with the Elac Adantes play them on Naim or Parasound you make one terrific value oriented system.
Paradigm Persona (expensive copycat of B&W) and Joseph Audio (expensive speaker with off the shelf drivers, no low diffraction cab or waveguide even, can easily be replicated for a cheaper price).
Many comments here are based on the faulty assumption that all speakers will sound good or bad regardless of what amplifier you are using .When in reality speaker/amplifier synergy is critical.What might sound poor on one amplifier could sound excellent on another to the point that they can sound like a completely different speaker.And then there is the other variable which is the room.
Overrated:ParadigmGoldenEar, every one of them GamuT Dynaudio Monitor Audio Revel Focal UnderratedKlipsch Heritage, grossly underrated Tekton DesignHarbeth
While I think while Harbeth makes a good speaker, I think they are way overpriced (I owned the SHL5s). I bought a pair of Joseph Audio Pulsars and was underwhelmed. Undervalued? Don’t know.
@geoffkait If thats aimed at me, my answer is no. I head some Linn (I think it was Linn) floor standers that sounded really nice. Not much to look at but sounded nice for $5k-ish. Outside of the Wilson's having more bass, I thought the Linn's were better.
Devore gibbon 8, heard a set side by side with a Dynaudio 3 way think the predecessor to the x38 (same price range as the devore) and the dyn was significantly better to the point that we just tuned off the Devore and focused on the dyn I was really interested in the Devore but the sound was disappointing at best, looks wonderful though lol.
Mac speakers...how many tweeters ?
Underrated;
Living Voice; not overly popular here in NA but great speaker. Good time to buy with the UK pound so low (thanks Brexit).
It’s an interesting question, if qualified. One example could be a minimum of 6 months of ownership and at least 5 owned speakers (6 months or more of ownership). There are others.
Otherwise, +1 to @prof ’s "This should go well...." post.
Overrated: BOSE. Mostly because people who have them are convinced by the marketing and have no idea how badly they overpaid and could have had much better.
Focus- heard them at a roadshow 20 years ago and thought they were garbage. Can’t say they are overrated, as that was one experience, in one room, years ago.
Hey I honestly believe OHM got home audio speaker design right with the Walsh design and its huge sweet spot (practically the whole room) and most of the rest are barking up the wrong tree, so there you go.
How many people really enjoy having to squeeze into a tiny sweet spot?
@aniwolfe, ain't it the truth! For some reason the 8b doesn't get nearly the attention as does the MG1.7i. ET's dealer network is rather small, no advertising, few reviews (the UK press loves 'em), etc. People don't know what they're missing, and don't seem to be inclined to endeavor to find out. Oh well, as the kids say.
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