Viva as a company has decided to abandon the audiophiles who engage in the used market. I heard that the had implemented new transformers in there amps. I emailed them directly 3 times over a 2 week period with no reply. Finally I called and the knew who I was by name, surprised I was then told that the US importer would be contacting me. Here is the mail exchange:
From: John Krupa Date: September 21, 2016 at 7:04:52 PM EDT To: support@vivaaudio Subject: Fwd: Viva Audio
Totally what I did not expect!!! I was primarily looking to upgrade them to the new Quattro status as I understand there was an big transformer upgrade that I was willing do in addition to the voltage change. After the Bob Clarke email I was taken back and responded how I felt. I really am no longer interested in Viva as a company to do business with if that is the case and will blog the copy of this email to the various sites.
From: John Krupa Date: September 21, 2016 at 2:08:37 AM EDT To: Bob Clarke Subject: Re: Viva Audio
The Verona's are at my Girlfriends house in Manchester. I heard there was a new Transformer upgrade in the Quattro series, hence my interest. I have over $300k invested in my system and I have Sola CVS transformers providing both voltages hence it was only for convenience sake. Upgrades are and have been part of this industry that I have been a part of for over 40 years since I started in this hobby. Name the manufacturer and it hasn't been a problem. Upgrading from. Mk1 to a Mk2 or an SE upgrade. Weather it be BAT, YG, Plinius, Ayre, the list goes on and on, It's a shame that a manufacturer acts in such a petty way. I will make sure that I share this email on all the sites that I am a part of! It's funny but this I believe reduces the brands appeal and will drive down its resale valve hence the initial desire to purchase in the first place. This is an email I would have expected from a "name deleted" type. Now I guess Viva! No longer a fan!
On Sep 20, 2016, at 12:02 PM, Bob Clarke wrote:
Dear Mr. Krupa,
Viva Audio has asked me to respond to your request regarding voltage changes and upgrades for Viva Verona amplifiers and Linea linestage. Viva no longer services equipment purchased on the used market from anyone that is not an authorized Viva dealer. They do not make voltage changes, in order to discourage grey-market international sales. I would recommend using a high-quality, high-current step-down transformer, which, besides allowing the use of a European voltage product, will also have the beneficial effects that isolation transformers provide.
Some manufactures seem to come up with the oddest excuses not to properly support their product long term.
Some Dealers just seem to wine, some manufactures look at way out to not properly take care of their product and customers whom own such.
All they need to do is offer a TRANSFERABLE ownership.
Warranty only being in effect from the original purchase date - after such any repairs or upgrades be charged for.
I did not read the OP asking for anything free. The lack of support clearly demonstrates the unprofessionalism of said company be it small or large.
Leaves me with this question in mind - do they not care about their business long term nor their product or want repeat business.
Without customers they have no business.
They aren't losing business on pces that have already been sold, that revenue has already been captured, they will earn more doing the repairs and upgrades.
I was seriously looking at some of their product but reading this would never purchase.
This is to be a nice and open discussion on Viva and their decision as quoted here: " Viva no longer services equipment purchased on the used market from anyone that is not an authorized Viva dealer."
These type of threads take a life of its own. I've already posted this is NOT true from my recent experience with Viva. Next is ISSI running Viva?
This is to be a nice and open discussion on Viva and their decision as quoted here: " Viva no longer services equipment purchased on the used market from anyone that is not an authorized Viva dealer."
Reasonable folks can say, as I have, that this decision is a best concerning. Yes, get it fixed and upgraded by any good tech or do it yourself. All true. However, the greater point is if you buy your wonderful sounding Viva amp used here on Audiogon and elsewhere, understand Viva won't help you ..... Ever. Too bad and bad business. Pretty simple point here guys. Certainly one that has merit.
Most manufacturers will not upgrade 10 year old amplifiers. Most people asking for such and getting a no answer dont slander the company online. Only thing VIVA did to this guy is say no to his upgrade. And he acts like the sky is falling.
Damb it go get it fixed by a local repair place. Many manufactures go out of business or die yet products are fixable. Anyone hear of marantz, fisher , Scott. Man if I were a moderator on this forum I would be warning you by now. If I had a viva product I would repair it and kiss it every day because that is how good it sounds.
Would some one please tell me what is wrong with finding a repair shop and just going there. I don't get it. Maybe they would rather spend their time helping their customers.
Curious what the expectations would be if you sent a used piece of gear to the manufacture and he told you it had been modified and he would have to restore it to original and then do the work.
I have taken my car into another dealer in another state and he asked me if it had been modified. I say no and he is happy.
Stop whining and find a guy that works on tube amps. No more winning.
If you don't want to consider Viva High End that's your call. They are wonderful amplifiers with excellent built quality. One of the best sounding amplifiers I've heard. Charles,
Thanks for sharing this and calling Viva Audio out -- this hobby needs a LOT more call-outs like this.
There is a long list of companies that produce fine quality gear AND show their pride in workmanship by offering exemplary, reasonable cost service on 2nd hand gear.
Viva Audio clearly considers their own products as garbage carrying NO intrinsic value once they leave the ordained distribution chain. Therefore I see no reason to classify them high-end components.
I owned the Solista and it was a fabulous piece. Bob Clark (distro) was always helpful even though I bought it used. I also contacted Viva about an upgrade to the transformers and they were also cordial. I would talk to Bob for clarification.
Agree completely with Daveyf. Good business policy requires good long term vision based on good will. I'd bet between the 2 policy options of servicing their products no matter who owns them vs servicing products bought only from a dealer; the "service anybody" policy is the healthiest choice for customer relations and therefore long term business. I believe a company's prosperity is directly related to their customer relations policies and the friendlier the better!
A company is really shooting itself in the foot by not supporting it's used products. If someone can't sell his or her old model they will probably not upgrade to the new model.
charles1dad,
He already bought the amp, dac and speakers from Goodwin High End. He was interested in a VAC pre and just happens I have one and a Hegel H30. A local dealer introduced him to me and after a year+ demoing different pre, he finally bought a new VAC last month.
He rolled his 1st tube last week and enjoying himself. It's been fun helping him.
I have to disagree with the notion that manufacturers shouldn't service grey market goods. The manufacturers make the product and ship it to either one of their own distributors or dealers. If a distributor or dealer then turns around, and against their agreement with the manufacturer, sells it in a manner they were not supposed to, thus creating a grey market product, the manufacturer should take it up with that dealer or distributor. With serial number tracking, they should know exactly which distributor or dealer created the problem and if they have a beef, take it out on the distributor or dealer, not on an innocent purchaser down the line with no knowledge of the problem.
Hi Knghifi, Nice system! Since he is a non audiophile did you advise/guide him to these components? Just curious as to how he'd be aware of this market genre. Charles,
charles1dad, This guy has a very healthy budget building his 1 system. He ended up with Hegel H30, VAC SigMKIIa SE, Rockport Avior, Berkeley Reference DAC ... 😊.
Knghifi, Add Shindo to that list. I'm curious, how did a "non audiophile " end up with such a niche product as Viva? Your friend has very good taste 😊. Charles,
When I requested information in changing 300B to 2A3 tube, for anon-audiophile friend,
in an used Viva Linea XP preamp power supply, Bob Clarke at Profundo replied with cost and details. As far as I know, there's no problems getting
an used Viva
serviced in the US,
It's just not Viva, many manufacturers will not service grey market products. Vivid, Luxman ... and i don't blame them.
Realistically, how often do you see Viva products on the used market? Viva is a niche player that seems perfectly happy in that role. While I think not servicing any used products is wrongheaded and potentially hurts sales, I image Viva basically builds to order and is not lacking in customers. They build a small number of products that while expensive are not ridiculously so, for a few discerning customers. Could be they don't want to be Audio Research and get snapped up by some corporate conglomerate.
I agree completely with Viva, from a business perspective. The simpe fact is, with so many sales performed via the internet, companies are loosing the ability to have brick and mortar stores and it wont be long before companies will fold because of loss of sales in the grey market. If you want innovation and competition, you have to be willing to pay the price and buy new or used form a legit dealer. If you love the industry it may come down to this. I myself buy used when I can. I recently bought a pair of VOn Schweikert VR7's and had them upgraded to the top tier for a fair penny to the manufacturer but I understand VIVA is protecting their dealers. That is understandable, imho.
If fracescode’s statement of the manufacturer’s position is accurate, that not only hurts the used market for potential purchasers but limits the market for new product purchasers- the original buyer of the piece new is going to have a harder time getting rid of the piece to a used buyer who can’t get support. That is unfortunate for all concerned. I suppose the original owner could be forced to sell back to an authorized dealer if support is provided in that circumstance, but that’s unduly restrictive. As long as we aren’t complicating the question with grey market issues,* I’m in agreement with those of you who think this is not a good practice.
*Davey- the OP's situation did raise grey market issues as I read it, but the discussion has embraced grey and non-grey goods.
@whart - an advertisement in a print magazine - you are dating yourself there! But, I do remember those days very fondly :) - all good points, I just don’t understand their stance, just seems to me like Daveyf says, it’s just poor business practice to turn away a paying customer. I will not consider them for a purchase.
whart, I am actually talking about non grey market products. The typical vehicle that we see in the states is not a grey market vehicle. The Viva piece in question is, I am assuming, a non-grey market piece. Nonetheless, the definition of 'grey market' might well be different from manufacturer to manufacturer---i suppose. If, as francescode states above, that Viva will not support a Viva piece, simply because it is used and also not in the hands of the original purchaser, is in my mind just plain crazy and very poor business practice!
I have often talked to Amedeo Schembri Owner of Viva Audio. Viva Audio for corporate policy does not repair equipment purchased used. I asked him: In this time of recession many are oriented on the used market. You love someone purchases another brand, or he buys a used Viva? He did not answer me. I think he lost a lot of opportunities
I think there has to be some sort of misunderstanding. I can understand them refusing to do voltage change to slow the grey market. The grey market hurts dealers and distributors and without them the manufacturer will not exist. Now I could understand a warranty being only valid to the original owner when purchased from an authorized dealer. But as for servicing their products I find it hard to believe they would refuse it. Specially if warranty is void and it is at customers expense. It is a TUBE amp so if I needed service I'd have it done in the states.. There are plenty of techs than can repair them. The shipping cost alone to Italy would be crazy expensive and most likely more expensive then the repair itself. As for upgrading transformers to a newer one I suppose that would be there decision. It may require a lot of work and not be worth the expense to change other parts inside to work with a newer transformer. Just my thoughts on things!!! Viva amps do sound good. We did business with them years ago through Victor Goldstein. I've always liked the product
Aesthetix is another company that does this. They will not support their used equipment purchased overseas. Even if you are the original owner migrating to a country with a different voltage, they will refuse to change the transformers. They will not even supply schematics to the authorised tech of their distributer in another country. They expect the tech to tell them the issue and debug the issue over the phone with them remotely. Bloody ridiculous.
Davey- the car market may be a good example. At least it was, back when I was buying exotics. Cars sold in the States have to meet all kinds of regulatory standards-- from crash-worthiness to EPA standards. There were many instances where a very cool model was never brought into the States officially- it could be privately homologated by a certified shop, but I doubt any US dealer would get near it. (Some of these are now antiques, so can get in through other exemptions). I believe that a lot of major manufacturers of all types of products adhere to these kinds of policies for grey goods, because apart from protecting their territorial distributorships and dealers (which cost more than buying out of network), there are in some instances, material differences in the products themselves, which raise legal compliance/liability issues. The manufacturer will, for very good reasons, want to avoid condoning the sale of such products in a territory where they don’t comply with applicable safety, health or other laws or regulations. I think you have to consider the many sides to this- as well as the facts of the specific situation before you can reach a conclusion as to whether extending or denying service in a particular instance is fair or reasonable. If you aren't talking about grey goods, but products originally authorized for sale in the territory, I agree that support should be provided, see my previous postings.
@michaela : perhaps that is true. I don’t know enough of the facts here since the OP does have a piece of gear that is ex-US. I’ll give you one example. Years ago, I bought a piece of consumer electronics (video) from a dealer in the States and it had problems. The dealer was useless. I contacted the manufacturer- they said, "oh, he’s not an authorized dealer, so we have no obligation." I sent them a copy of a print advertisement from the dealer that appeared in a major electronics magazine (yeah, this was some time ago), claiming that the dealer was authorized to sell the brand. The ad even included the manufacturer’s logo and the words "authorized dealer." I suggested to the manufacturer that they ought do a better job policing this. They agreed, and sent some techs to my house, along with a new unit. But, this doesn’t sound like that situation. Sometimes, the issue of grey market isn’t always so murky and doesn’t involve any overt misrepresentations (although who knows- dealers can sometimes be a little too slick, right?). However, there are times when a consumer knows that they are purchasing something outside of the authorized system and in that case, I think the consumer bears the risk. For any high priced piece of gear, used, I would probably insist on the serial number and contact the manufacturer to verify its origin and service history before I bought. (I don’t know how much this happens in hi-fi, but I know in the case of other luxuries goods, some have turned out to be stolen!- Not suggesting that is the case here at all, just that you can never be too careful when laying out substantial funds). Having said all that, please note that the original statement from the US distributor (contained in the original post that started this thread) did strike me as overbroad-- in refusing service for any equipment not bought from an authorized dealer. This would exclude the used market, even if the gear was originally "authorized" to be sold within the territory, i.e, not grey market. See my post above at 09-25-2016 9:57am.
I’m reluctant to paint this with a broad brush-- it really depends on the facts. I don’t believe a consumer who knowingly buys out of market goods can expect or should the support, for the several reasons mentioned in another post of mine above. But, I’m not the arbiter of this, and your view is certainly as valid as mine. To the extent that there is a cost to be borne, it is usually the consumer that pays it, one way or the other.
I don’t get the philosophy, or the business model, that supports the idea that a ’professional’ manufacturing company can refuse to support any of its previous year ( or for that matter current year) gear....simply because it was bought from a non-representative! If this faulty business tactic was applied to car manufacturer’s, can one imagine the issues that would crop up if one bought a used car from a non-dealer! Never mind the legal issues??? There is plenty of money to be made by the manufacturer in supporting their old product. On top of that, the ’good will’ that the customer will experience will most likely lead to some loyalty to the brand. Sure, the local dealer wants to control the sale, but in this day and age of worldwide markets....that’s truly expecting a lot, IMHO.
@Whart - then the manufacturer needs better control of its distributors
and dealers to avoid the products becoming grey market. Their issue is
with their people, it shouldn't be with the people who use the products.
Having exactly same problem with Stax headphones. Bought an used pair that was original purchase from Japan. It turns out Stax US will not repair items that are bought else where. I was not aware of the policy and original seller didn’t bother to disclose that.
Frankly, the business might think this will discourage people from buying grey market item. What’s actually going to happen is simple, people will stop buying the brand all together. Who wants to own a piece of expensive equipment that you can’t even pay to get it serviced.
Guys: My main point in the earlier posts here was to distinguish between grey market and 'authorized' for the market goods, not whether it was covered by warranty or whether it was repair or upgrade. I think the question raised--and reiterated by BRF a few posts above--remains.
I have no experience with Viva at all. So, not necessarily a comment on them specifically. I have however sold and serviced audio gear for nearly 40 years, and see this as a big warning sign.
I personally would not support a product from a company that would refuse upgrades or service to second hand owners. I have seen this many times from some very big names. A company that will not support its products is a problem. This should be a factor in your buying decision.
The OP wasn't asking for free service, he was willing to pay for the upgrade. Whart is correct if you are asking for warranty service. In the this case, however, the OP wasn't asking for that, he was willing to pay for the upgrade. There's a big difference.
and we do not support equipment coming from used market, transferred from overseas.
I am confused. Is this email coming from the US importer? If so, it sounds like he is saying we will not support Viva products not sold through a US retailer. To the US importer, this is a grey market amp. I would like to see an email from the US importer saying that they will not support used products that were initially sold through their US distribution. Two very different scenarios.
Wow!! I appreciate everyone's reply. To be clear, yes if you purchase a used piece of Viva gear from a private seller who paid full retail from a US dealer, Viva will not provide support no matter what you pay. So here they are punishing the original buyer!!! It renders VIva u sellable and actually reduces their brands. worth. SAD! For the record these were bought from a private seller, who was the original owner. The voltage change is not a big deal. I was looking to upgrade them to "Quattro" status. If I knew all the changes that went into the Quattro I would get it done here. I have bought watches when I have traveled, Rolex and jaeger Le C. To name 2 and even though bought overseas there has been no problem servicing them here in the US for they were purchased from reputable dealers. I have since received another email. Again the specifically say the won't support the used market. I understand the grey market problem but this is not the case here. And what is worse is that I owned a pair of Verona's that were purchased from a US dealer that I sold 3 years ago. I missed them and wanted them back I found these. Viva knew this for it was in my first email to their support. See the email below, come to your own conclusions.
Dear Mr. Krupa,
We really do not understand this animosity. Verona is a discontinued product from years and any upgrade would be expensive. The only thing we said is that we do not support equipment directly, only through dealers/distributors, and we do not support equipment coming from used market, transferred from overseas.
Since you are doing this, I think that our decision is right.
Companies which do not service used products devalue their product and their brand; their products, sold used, have a lower value due to the lack of support. Denying support to owners of a used product, in order to "protect" a dealer network, places the interests of dealers ahead of the interests of owners of those products, and devalues the product itself.
I try my best to avoid such companies, and will certainly avoid Viva. Their products do not appear to represent good value, anyway.
Does this mean that Viva will not service anything purchased on the used market, period? Or does it just mean that it will not service something that was not initially purchased from a Viva dealer? Sumiko has always had a policy of not providing parts or service on any item not initially purchased from an authorized dealer. Just trying to make sure I understand exactly what is going on here, because, IMO, they are two very different things.
@unsound - I respectfully disagree- the issue is a consumer issue as well. We seem to want it all- low prices, ready availability and support. What’s that saying? You can only have two out of three: good, cheap and fast? I don’t begrudge a consumer, looking for a bargain, buying out of the distribution chain, but that should be an informed decision, knowing the trade-off is potentially a lack of support. I may not be the typical consumer of hi-fi gear because I want the comfort of knowing that whatever I buy will be supported, and am willing to pay the premium to get it. Support costs money--for the manufacturer and distributor; of course this is passed on to the customer in the form of higher prices. But with that also come certain intangibles, apart from peace of mind--I’ve had unbelievable support from manufacturers and distributors--in many instances way beyond the call of duty-- supplying loaners, direct replacements, and quick turnaround on repairs ,extra spares, discounts and the like. Yes, I "paid" for that upfront rather than bargain hunting, though in some cases, the equipment came into my hands used, through an authorized dealer. Perhaps I’ve just been lucky and I’ll hit a snag at some point--buying gear through authorized channels and getting zero support. But, how can loaners, replacement products and other courtesies (I do regard them as courtesies to the extent that the manufacturer/distributor makes such accommodations beyond a literal reading of the warranty)--be extended without paying for it in some way? As I said, I don’t begrudge the bargain shopper- but as long as it is an informed choice, you take whatever risk you (and your pocketbook) are comfortable with.
I would never knowingly buy a product from a company with such a policy. Grey market concerns are the companies issue, not the consumers. It hurts the resale value for those who might want to move up those very companies lines, and thus compromises the value to the original purchaser. There are still many top quality products that are more consumer friendly; I'll spend my money accordingly.
The type of protection of the US distributor and the local dealerships that Viva appears to be employing will, unfortunately, hurt some used buyers that unknowingly purchased a unit that has ended up in another country/sales region. But, absent some protection, it is almost impossible for brick and mortar dealerships to make a go of it with people shopping all over the world via the internet after using their local dealership as a show/demonstration room (or even making a purchase without auditioning based on the "wisdom" of the internet or reviewers). Distributor/dealer network for demonstrating gear vs. losing dealers and relying on shows or internet hype to promote the products/brand? This mini war between bargain shoppers and protected local distribution unfortunately appears to have created some collateral damage in the used equipment market. There is a tradeoff involved no matter what the policy employed.
As for repairs of Viva gear, their stuff should be quite easy for any competent repair shop to do the repairs. Most tube gear can be repaired easily without having to go back to the manufacturer.
@roxy54 Well, if you are thinking of companies owned by the Swatch Company, I hope they have improved. Their service was so bad I promised I'd never own another watch in their brand umbrella. I hope that got better.
Whart, Excellent comments and perspective in making the distinction. To not offer service to all used Viva product ownersowners is wrong in my opinion. I'm specifically addressing the true grey market dilemma. Viva shouldn't discard the baby with the bathwater. Charles,
I think you have to distinguish between grey goods and equipment on the resale market that was originally authorized to be sold in a particular territory or region. Grey goods, as I understand it, are legitimate goods, but only within the territory or region for which they are authorized to be sold. In many cases, rather than using the authorized dealer or distribution network within your country, you can buy from the country of origin or neighboring country at a cheaper price, but that bypasses the distribution and support system the manufacturer has put into place. (Some of the mark up or difference in price is a reflection of the additional cost of that local distribution and service network). In the case of electronics, power supplies may be modified or other changes made to adapt the product for the remote market. The manufacturer typically does not want to have to support that -even if being paid to do so by the end user--since it not only undercuts its distribution system, but puts its brand in jeopardy if unauthorized modifications have been made to the equipment. I don’t think these are shabby excuses, but reflect legitimate concerns. (PS: I’m not addressing ViVa alone here, but the issue more generally and have no view on ViVa’s service or support, in the U.S. or elsewhere).
In my earlier post upthread (I thought these posts were numbered, but it appears at 09-25-2016 9:57am), I pointed out that the U.S. distributor’s stated position went beyond that, and denies support to "equipment purchased on the used market from anyone that is not an authorized Viva dealer." Read literally, this would exclude support for goods that were authorized for sale in the territory in question, but purchased used from a private seller.
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