You see those pointy things at the bottom of a speaker that are very very sharp. Arguably a weapon in the wrong hands. And then you see those same pointy things inserted into a disk.
So the pointy things, aka ‘spikes’ , can Channel vibration elsewhere and away from the components and speakers, or they can isolate it.
Seems channeling vibration away from a component/ speaker, which I guess is absorption, is preferable.
Is this true? And why do they keep saying isolation.
The EAR damping products mentioned by @atmasphere are available from Michael Percy Audio, a great hi-fi accessories mail order business. The sheets of EAR damping material (developed for industry) work great at absorbing the mechanical vibrations of the enclosures of electronic components.
For speaker enclosures, bracing is the first defense against cabinet resonances (look at the bracing inside Salk speakers and subs)---they raise the resonant frequency of the enclosure panels above that mostly excited by the drivers, with GR Research NoRez used to mop up what remains. Adding bracing to an already existing speaker is rarely possible (the bracing eats up air space volume inside the enclosure, changing the tuning of the design), but NoRez can be, as it is volume-neutral.
The ideal setup is for absolutely NO vibration on the turntable, especially turntable motor vibration / noise. Isolation and vibration reduction required on the mounting platform (air suspension and / or large mass platform to concrete slab). Most electronic components will probably have some vibration. Absorbing that vibration is good so that it doesn’t get into other components.
You are suggesting that springs, used in combination with dampers, are coupling devices?
Would you characterize shock absorbers, used on every car in the world, as coupling devices?
Hello, whipsaw,
Yes, the coupling is when any product comes in contact with the ground plane of the earth. This definition includes shock absorbers.
I would prefer the conversation to stay within musical boundaries. In audio, outside sciences and principles and analogies are difficult to describe what it means for sound quality.
Here is a link to a patent of a "Vibration decoupling connection device", in which the word "decoupling" is used multiple times:
Our Company Founding Fathers held multiple Patents. Our material science engineer holds a degree in Patent Law, so I am familiar with US and Global Patents. Patents, their writings, and the logic behind them are topics for a separate thread.
The device involving this Patent changes the frequency or converts energy into another form. Once the part adapts to a vehicle, the new mechanism is mechanically grounded or coupled to the Earth.
I have the impression that you are playing semantic games, based on the suggestion that even the best designed springs/dampers are unable to completely decouple components from floors/racks, etc.
I do not play games. Our company has designed equipment racks, studio environments, and other musical instrument parts.
Please NAME ONE PRODUCT that “completely decouples components from floors, racks, etc”.
But there is no doubt whatsoever that, at least in the case of speakers, they can come far closer to decoupling than coupling devices such as spikes.
It is time we stop comparing everything out there to the expensive one-dollar ($1.00) spike and realize there is much more we can learn from our peers. How does a low-end part command comparison and remain the primary topic driving conversations in High-End Audio?
You are indeed playing semantic games, and are clearly biased given that you have related products for sale. Also, please stop with the straw men.
Spikes couple components to whatever they sit on, while spring/damper devices can come very close to decoupling the same components. That difference that can be very important, and your attempts to conflate them, presumably for marketing purposes, are obvious.
The fact that there is not 100% decoupling is irrelevant, and for what should be obvious reasons.
Do you know the acoustical tiles people put in their ceilings, and on the wall. They’re about three or four dollars for one square foot piece.
These are excellent absorption panels and they fit real nicely underneath certain speakers and other components. And what’s really cool about them is that you can easily slide the component around, and the speakers can slide a around to if the footprint isn’t too large.
absolute mechanical isolation and decoupling cannot exist in the presence of gravity
You throw this out there to further your self-serving post, intimating that because absolute decoupling is impossible, your way is the only way.
Absolute decoupling is not achievable and not necessary! A resonant frequency of the decoupling device at about 3 to 5Hz will prevent transmission of any musical sound. The rumblings from a nearby volcano might get past the device but then I think you may have bigger problems 🙄
Spikes couple and couple well to a surface and will efficiently transmit vibration in both directions.
Can you provide examples of which firms do mechanical grounding Products?
Hello, jumia,
Not many of us have the patience and capability to apply the correct geometry and material science formulas for audio products. Unlike a spring, absorption puck, or damping wafer, these designs take a lot more research, development, and testing before becoming recognized by the public as a tell-all product.
Companies using mechanical grounding technologies are the minority compared to the isolation, decoupling, and energy absorption versions in today’s marketplace.
When AudioGon opened for business, we announced the first equipment rack designed to vibrate. It took five years for people, the naysayers, and the press to use and recognize the technology we innovated.
AudioGon had no moderators during those times. I was ridiculed, called stupid names, and took everything the members dished out. In my opinion, the High-End Audio Industry is hesitant to accept change or new advancements in technical achievements until there is advertising money involved.
We knew it was only time until the products would speak for themselves and lead the Company. Now, we are the oldest surviving vibration management company involved in audio.
Our Cello and Acoustic Bass End Pins took twenty years to develop and market. The first racks, known as Sistrum Platforms, took ten years, and the Rhythm Platforms required fourteen years to advance performance. The Energy Room took twenty-five years to manufacture, and Live-Vibe’s first offering, the Audio Points™, took six years of testing, shaping, and beta listening.
Goldmund is a European counterpart that uses mechanical grounding in all their electronics and speaker designs. They spent the time required to develop a highly respected line of products and show how mechanical grounding provides a higher sonic outcome.
Shun Mook was another of the earliest companies in this country to understand and adapt mechanical grounding techniques to their equipment offerings.
These are a few of the companies that adopt and expand mechanical grounding technologies. We are outnumbered in the isolation-decoupling department as there are hundreds of these to choose from.
The term mechanical grounding, associated with parts and equipment chassis’ is another word for direct coupling.
You are indeed playing semantic games, and are clearly biased given that you have related products for sale. Also, please stop with the straw men.
That difference that can be very important, and your attempts to conflate them, presumably for marketing purposes, are obvious.
Whipsaw,
All I did was answer your questions. Sorry if I offended you.
I am here to show there is a superior methodology that exists in this industry and has for a very long time. We are capable of explaining more, having more experience, and seeing through the newfound world of decoupling products and their hundreds of manufacturers with their own stories.
Add to that, we are willing to put our products to any test in your own home with your own system. There are no straw men in that offer.
We also have a right to use AudioGon for advertising or promotional purposes as we pay a monthly fee to their advertising programs. There are a host of dealers, manufacturers, and reviewers doing this on all forum-based businesses. Some of them hide behind the smoke and others come forth and admit it. Either way, marketing is like vibration, it is everywhere.
Send me pics of your room and system. I will tell you what I think and recommend items, not necessarily ours, that will improve your system.
We also have a right to use AudioGon for advertising or promotional purposes as we pay a monthly fee to their advertising programs. There are a host of dealers, manufacturers, and reviewers doing this on all forum-based businesses. Some of them hide behind the smoke and others come forth and admit it. Either way, marketing is like vibration, it is everywhere.
Wow, I almost had to do a double take!
Such candidness is unlikely to make many friends but it is certainly refreshing to see such honesty in a public forum.
As for your statement :
I was ridiculed, called stupid names, and took everything the members dished out.
In my opinion, the High-End Audio Industry is hesitant to accept change or new advancements in technical achievements until there is advertising money involved.
That sounds about right too (just check out some of the recent ASR threads).
This open approach is no doubt the better way to do business. For that I wish you continued success. It's only fair and right that the customer deserves sympathetic respect and not routine deception.
It's quite amazing how the market for decoupling products has grown to such an extent in such a short time. We're now even seeing lossy decoupling being built in to products such as the Q Acoustics Concept range of loudspeakers.
All I did was answer your questions. Sorry if I offended you.
I am here to show there is a superior methodology that exists in this industry and has for a very long time. We are capable of explaining more, having more experience, and seeing through the newfound world of decoupling products and their hundreds of manufacturers with their own stories.
Robert, I find your continued dishonesty, coupled with arrogance, to be deeply off-putting.
Had you joined this thread and made it clear that you manufacture and sell coupling devices (e.g. spikes, etc.), then readers might have better understood your efforts to denigrate decoupling devices. Instead, you made no clear mention of your conflict of interest, and attempted, dishonestly, to argue that decoupling is somehow unscientific.
Now you claim to have a "superior methodology", and the ability to see "through the newfound world of decoupling products and their hundreds of manufacturers with their own stories."
Never mind that Isoacoustics and Townsend Audio, arguably the two leaders in decoupling technology for audiophiles, have been in business for over 10 and 20 years respectively. Never mind that some very high-class manufacturers (e.g. Marten, Wolf von Langa, Spatial, Dynaudio, etc.) are including such products with some of their models.
So no, it's not a "newfound world", but one with decades of R&D and sales to its credit. And any suggestion that those manufacturers are somehow missing the boat because they aren't using your products instead would be dubious, to put it very kindly.
Let me be clear about something: I have not heard your products, and make no judgement about them. Perhaps they are excellent in some applications, and represent very good value. But even if that were true it would be beside the point.
I have no problem with manufacturers or dealers marketing their products, but have no patience for those who choose to do so in other than a transparent, and straightforward manner. If you were willing to give some credit to other manufacturers, and recognize the value of decoupling devices in certain applications, I, and I expect other readers, would likely be more open to your efforts to differentiate your products.
As it stands, I see mostly hyperbole, dubious tactics, and arrogance.
Actually, Townshend Audio has been in business since 1975. Max started the company to manufacture and market a turntable design that was the end result of intense research into the playback of LP records led by Professor Jack Dinsdale at Cranfield University in England---the legendary Rock Turntable.
The original Townshend Audio isolation product was named The Seismic Sink (introduced in 1989), which was a top and bottom platform separated from one another by from one to three inflatable inner tubes, a very old idea dating back to the 1950’s (WWII-era audiophiles made their own, using bicycle inner tubes and paving stones). I placed my Rock Elite table on one for years---very effective. My Rock now sits on a platform supported by a set of four Seismic Pods, even more effective.
The current Seismic Pod, Bar, Platform, and Podium are state-of-the-art isolation products, the best on the market in the opinion of many. Not cheap, but priced lower than products by the likes of HRS.
Thank you for all your comments. It would be of interest to see your system and how it’s configured with all this vibration stuff but I don’t see anything there.
It would be nice to see something on your system thanks
You seem to be taking a negative view on isolation and absorption merchandise sold by audio enthusiasts. And then in your final section you say that vibration management tools makes sense as part of the sound reproduction process.
Hello, emergingsoul,
Sorry for taking so long to respond to your post.
I have witnessed many parts and products that change the sound of a system. Anyone working in this Industry since the 80s has gone through the get-rich-quick schemes using everything imaginable. I can change the sound of your system with a box of chicken bones. I can kill the live dynamics using too much material. It is easy to change the sound of any system.
The 90s exposed vibration control to a state of this product is better than that mentality. Snake oil was the most descriptive term in our sector of the marketplace.
Nowadays, everyone is a vibration expert. Even wire companies have so-called experts in the field. A few short years ago, there was only a handful of us, so I have a few personal issues with our industry. Marketing and storytelling are the primary ones.
We use vibration as a tool to increase dynamics and harmonic structures. The downside to vibration is many of them combine to form resonance. Resonance is like glue clogging, sticking to, and blocking signal strength. The reduction and evacuation of resonance as it develops, in real-time, allows for more signal increase and sound quality to emerge throughout the system.
Can you please clarify what you’re saying and provide examples of how someone would improvement to eliminate vibrations that are detrimental too good sound reproduction, which I’m sure exist somewhere.
Vibration is sound. The initial pulses contain all the harmonic structures and live dynamics we seek as listeners to obtain and maintain in our systems.
Vibrations that lack efficient mechanical grounding systems develop various amplitudes of resonance. Resonance builds layers and propagates on all smooth surfaces. It clogs all signal pathways from mechanical, electro-mechanical, and acoustic.
The focus is to transfer these resonance amplitudes at high speed to Earth’s grounding plane hence direct coupling. All energy seeks ground - physics class 101.
Resonance is the culprit in our understanding.
Vibration is the musical lifeblood.
Components, speakers, and listening environments vibrate and always will.
Electricity provides the energy that establishes vibration. There are vibrational properties in all power sources, electricity being the most used by audiophiles.
The room structure will continuously vibrate. Everything vibrates, so it does not matter where the vibrations come from. Every type of energy is in a constant state of vibration and motion.
Jumping up and down in a listening environment is physically induced, creating additional problems. These are not good for sound or audio analogies. If an audible deterrent does not exist, do not make one!
my subwoofer cabinet directly vibrates my floor which causes vibration noise from things on my shelf, an aluminum window frame, loose knickknacks, but if I put a squishy isolator disc thing between the feet of the subwoofer and the wooden floor it tends to absorb the sub cabinet vibrations and improve dispersion of pressure amplitudes more evenly throughout the room which is ideal for a sub.
Good Point:
I used foams, rubber, Sorbathanes, sands, and other primary absorbent materials when working in recording studios in the 70s. These materials will eat all energy and provide a deader lifeless sound quality. Establishing geometry and producing a formula for adaptations on musical instruments and other hi-fi products using these materials is impossible to implement. They eat harmonics, dynamics, and vibrations but end up sounding dead.
We can improve your listening situation. I financially guarantee our work and products.
I will work with you to teach, recommend products, and improve your system via personal contact.
We have worked with thousands of listeners and audiophiles studying vibration management, researching principles, and advancing product innovation. Before I become labeled a shill, call me and allow me the time to advance your knowledge and understanding of sound and musical quality.
Resonance Energy Transfer is a highly reliable technology.
Robert, I find your continued dishonesty, coupled with arrogance, to be deeply off-putting.
OK Whipsaw,
If you have nothing for me on a technical or musical level, please write me off.
You have attacked my honesty. That aggravates me to no end, so before I return the favor, this is for you.
Permit me to defend myself.
Do not reply using the shill response tactic because that will not affect me in any way whatsoever.
I toured live sound as a FOH and Monitor engineer from 1973 through 1984 and worked with a lengthy list of the finest musicians and recording stars. Some have passed, and a few to date remain touring stadium venues. During that time, I also worked as a stage manager at the Roxy Theater and mixed music in a few of the finest recording studios in the USA.
Due to a back injury, my professional sound career was cut short, so I spent the next thirty-nine years in the High-End Audio business studying and working with vibration and resonance.
The first product, Audio Points was released for public consumption in 1988 and sold more than one million units two years ago. They are still selling, setting new sales records year in and year out. One would think hundreds of them would be for sale in the used market, so where are they?
Audio Points led us to manufacture variable-height wood shelving using threaded rods on equipment racking through the 90s. The next step was the Sistrum Platforms that sold from 2000 through 2014. As our technology advanced, the Sistrums were discontinued for the Rhythm Platforms that remain our current offerings.
We innovated the Brass End Pins for cello, bass clarinet, and acoustic bass are selling throughout the world.
The Energy Room. A first-of-its-kind product in the Audio Industry is posted on our website.
Now we are advancing the technology to new levels showing heat reduction and energy conservation. A single technology with many arms and all of them are proving positive.
You are listed as a member since 2004. My guess is you did not take part in any of the earlier threads on AudioGon where I was one of the first to note ownership in a vibration management business.
There are many threads in the past where I provided listeners with differences in how things work. Max jumped up and down on the floor displaying his top-of-the-line product and comparing it to a few dollars worth of cheap spikes. Then there was the acoustic engineer with the aluminum cone and a tiny handheld music box stating our technology cannot work. How about the other company you believe to be a leader again comparing their top-end products with the one-dollar nail head spike?
How far do you want me to go? There is more marketing versus science going on in the decoupling world. But you believe in their processes so continue with that knowledge, and I hope you reach your goals.
My offer of placing our products in your system still stands. Why not let your ears decide?
I tried to warn you guys, arguing is futile, so it is best to just...
Believe It or Not.
Robert, I have been here a long time (since 99) and I have watched you verbosely try and convince others that your science and products are the clear winner, on thread after thread, in a hobby where there will never be an accepted clear winner. Many here seem to like your products, so don't try so hard. You are wearing people out.
So, the TT/Plinth/Adjustable legs were essentially solid, thus Stylus/Arm solid for play.
Then, below that, some rubber/cork blocks allow/minimize the effects of the springy wood floor, to the point that vertical vibration is dealt with, to a degree that allows me to get a step or two away while the stylus drops.
Apply the sandwich to Speakers, rigid (speaker bottom or platform if enclosure not very solid, on flexible (just enough) to isolate down/up vibrations
You have attacked my honesty. That aggravates me to no end...
No, Robert, I haven’t "attacked" your honesty, I have exposed it. That you would again play semantic games in an effort to serve your thinly veiled marketing purposes confirms it as a running theme in your posts.
Regurgitating your resume, and various assertions relating to the success of your products, is not only a red herring, but also notable in that I have never said anything negative about them.
In stark contrast, you seem to feel the irrepressible urge to attempt to denigrate the products of at least some of your competitors. It wasn’t enough for you to suggest, ludicrously, that there is no meaningful distinction between coupling and decoupling devices, you had to go further and assert that only the former fall into the category of "accepted science"! And apparently even that was insufficient, as evidenced by this petty, and frankly pathetic display:
Max jumped up and down on the floor displaying his top-of-the-line product and comparing it to a few dollars worth of cheap spikes.
Never mind that Max isn’t around to defend himself, or that his isolation products are held in very high regard by many audiophiles and professionals in the industry, the overriding point is that those who have real confidence in the products that they sell, and themselves, almost never feel the need to stoop to such tawdry tactics.
Everyone who has been in the game for some time understands that there are snake oil salesmen, and that many products sold represent poor relative value. That’s not news. But when you say this:
There is more marketing versus science going on in the decoupling world.
it is yet another example of your attempts to sell your own devices by raising dubious questions about the validity of those employing different designs. And it bears repeating: Given that high-class manufacturers including Marten, Wolf von Langa, Spatial, and Dynaudio are including such products with some of their models, it simply isn’t credible to suggest that those products somehow lack real-world efficacy.
The system we use as a testing facility and musical reference system are located in Wisconsin. The Energy Room is open to anyone for an audition by appointment only.
Our second system is located in Delaware. We are setting it up in an average environment for referencing a new product called Mechanical Panels™. These environmental sound devices were reverse-engineered from the Energy Room design to fit into any environment. They are much smaller in size versus acoustic panels and diffraction devices and command a larger surface area. Very wife friendly.
The electronics will be a modified Ayon Pre-Dac, Metronome Technologie, Star Sound amplification, various Sonoran and High Fidelity cables, Accentus Grand MK II speakers, and Rhythm Platforms.
We will also use a Bose Wave CD player atop a Rhythm Platform as an accompaniment for cost analysis and a secondary vintage system using an Onkyo Integra integrated amplifier and a Yamaha CD player with an Onkyo FM copper chassis tuner.
I looked at all the photos and I'm disappointed. So many members have done such a great job photographing and detailing out their systems and when I look at your pictures and info it's a huge letdown.
It looks to be a very impressive system but definitely warrants a more comfortable and informative overview
It works with some speakers, does not with the other. Same as what your speakers are connected to. So as it was already pointed out, tuning is the key.
In my case a pair Focal 948 on spikes (spikes are built into the base) do sound different, and I would argue cleaner, then without spikes. Same goes for Paradigm Esprit-BP (from the 90's); especially the lower tones, became more articulate and better pronounced. Same goes for Visaton La Belle that I built last year. Perhaps the change has to do with the height of the speaker (on the spikes is higher), but I kind of doubt it. With studio monitors JBL L90, adding spikes to the stands makes no difference whatsoever. So as I said, the key is in tuning. Goes without saying, your system has to be fine enough to make the difference obvious.
There has already been a fererence to laws that govern ancillaries, that are adopted for use to manage a produced energy.
The effectiveness of managing produced energy and the perceived effects of it, by use of an ancillary is open to question, as most adopt a item, and it might at the best, in many cases being subjectively evaluated. This type of evaluation is the one all methods I have adopted over the years have been exposed to, for assessing their value as a addition.
The Law of the Universe is that energy can not be destroyed, Energy is constant and will always be passed on to form other forms of Transferal/Dissipation.
A Wave Gently rolling to the Shoreline, runs out of its typical 1000+ mile Journey, the energy contained now becomes a Breaker Wave, A Foam (sound) and moves Tons of Sand Particulate. These three immediate changes are how the Wave Transfers it contained energy.
In the use of HiFi equipment there are energies present, and typically the methods used to learn of the presence, is usually to attempt to detect how the sound being produced in a particular environment is being impacted on. This can be done by the ear only or by using Science and Tools to discover the presence of energy and produce a method to manage it.
There are numerous methods available to Transfer/Dissipate energies believed to being created. There are not many who have extensively tried the bulk of methods that can be adopted. It is possible that if a change is discovered as a result of adopting a ancillary, this will be maintained and investigation ceases.
From my experiences and having tried a selection of different structures and materials to produce the structures, a HiFi System and Speakers can show there are significant benefits to be had, when mounted on a Structure that is able to create the perception that certain frequencies are with a improved attraction, along with the
Details, Micro Details and Envelope having a increased presence during a replay.
Owned equipment can take on this improvement in presentation, if there is a discovery made of a method to support equipment in a particular environment. This might prove beneficial, as the idea of considering a costly upgrade for HiFi Devices, may be no longer required.
Experiences encountered have shown there is not a ubiquitous support structure to fix all systems/environments. There is a need to experiment, which will bring the rewards.
The statement is not a question, it is a prompt to encourage further investigation into how a variant of a in use support structure can produce an improved impact on the Sound being produced.
I have a substantial collection of Footers from Spikes, Pads and Suspension, with Solid Tech Feet of Silence being the most expensive.
I have used numerous Sub Plinth Material from Natural through to Manmade, with a Panzerholz Sub Plinth being the most impressive used to date.
All that I own has been loaned into other systems, and to date if there is a assembly without a weight constraint for Devices that can be claimed to have been very well received, it is a Two Teir Assembly of Panzerholz Boards with 9 x Audio Technica 616 Footers in use as separators.
In my own system, the above assembly gets better, with Feet of Silence, separating the Top Teir and HiFi Device, but as stated, this has a constraint on weight that can be supported.
The feet suggested by Elliot are owned by myself in both Cork and a Blue Sylomer Foam. These are used in industry as well, that are designed to absorb energy and reduce noise from machinery. I have used them under Speakers mainly and they do assist with tightening a Bass Note. The AT 616, are able to improve on these, but at a considerable cost.
Friends who were impressed with their loan of AT 616, and were put of by the difficulty in acquiring them, have proven to themselves, though comparisons, that the Iso Acoustics Gaia Footers are as close to parity to the 616 as can be wanted. ,
Thanks for the advice. We will make an effort to do so. The equipment changes often. People who work here spend more time listening versus equipment setup, imaging, and marketing.
The Energy Room is open for auditions. Hearing the sound generated by the room is a rush. Since Covid, the traveling reviewer is not readily available. Reviewers want to take on new audio innovations, but a cloned acoustic environment has nothing to compare within the Industry.
Anyone interested in reviewing their experience in an Energy Room, regardless of Industry affiliations, publications, or amateur-professional status, please telephone me. We will work on arranging your visit.
@ mitch2
Ha-ha. One listening session and all your quotes, jokes, and puns would cease. Believe it or not!
@whipsaw I know that Isoacoustics announced a partnership with Wolf Von Langa, although I don’t know if the SON comes with the Gaia. Mine didn’t.
I have used Starsound/LiveVibe products for the past ten years and have had all my equipment on Sistrum stands with good effect. THey were recommended by an Audiogon member who sold me his TRL Dude preamp in 2012. He was so impressed with their stands that he had them build his listening room using their technology. At the time I had a pair of Audiokinesis Jazz Modules in a room that was giving me a lot of problems, with bass in particular. I bought a used pair of Sistrum stands from Starsound and they had a profound effect on SQ when I placed the Jazz modules on them. Bass was solid and sound overall was cleaner and more articulate. Fast forward 10 years and I moved to a different house with a friendlier listening room.
I received my Wolf Von Langa SONs in early January and Colin King of Gestalt came to set them up. Once we settled on a position we put the SONs on the Sistrum stands and immediately there was a substantial improvement in the sound quality versus on the floor. I actually purchased a pair of the Gaias to try during set up, but after hearing the SONs on the Sistrum stands, we didn’t bother trying them out.
Because the Sistrums are kind of sprawling and we needed to be able to walk around the speakers to get to a bathroom behind the speakers, I talked to Robert about the current LiveVibe Rhythm Jr stands, which fit nicely under the speakers and are more substantial including larger Audiopoint and coupling discs. I also traded in the Sistrum stand under my Circle Labs M200 amp for the Rhythm stand. I recently received them and set them up and noticed another step up in sound. The soundstage is remarkably 3-dimensional and extends well behind my walls on many recordings. Bass is clean and musical. Highs such as cymbals are crystal clear and really shimmer. It should be noted that that I have no acoustic treatment in my 11x17 room so I can imagine that tweaking that would result in further improvements
A side note is that Robert offered me about 85% of original purchase price for the products I traded in, which is not bad after 10 years of ownership.
So the benefit of the LiveVibe coupling technology is clear to me. I can’t say whether decoupling would be better but I find that this technology works for me. It would be interesting to do a direct comparison to decoupling devices like the Gaia or Townshend products so maybe I’ll try that when I have some spare time..Of course OCD Mikey, who is a big LiveVibe fan, has done that already as shown in these videos (and a few more. He believes that LiveVibe stands are an improvement over the Townshends. Take YouTube SQ for what it is worth in terms of your own ability to tell a difference..
Thank you for sharing your anecdotal experiences so eloquently. As should be clear from my posts, I was never arguing that the products of Isoacoustic or Townshend are necessarily better than those produced by Robert's company. But they have clearly been well-received by a meaningful number of audiophiles, as well as some high-class component manufacturers, and I see no reasonable basis on which anyone should attempt to ridicule them.
You have a terrific system, and are probably aware that I use a Circle Labs A200. I had a similar experience to yours when placing a set of Stillpoints Ultra SS V2 under that amp. A big improvement. Could I squeeze further improvement out by utilizing a different vibration control product? Possibly, but I do have a difficult imagining that it would be significant.
I have also placed Isoacoustic Gaias under my FinkTeam KIM speakers, and am quite happy withy the result. I could imagine that Townsend Podiums, or perhaps the ones that you are using, might produce further improvements. But again, I would expect diminishing returns at best.
I would be very interested to hear your impressions if you are able to compare a Townshend Podium under your WvL SON to the LiveVibe, but I expect that you would agree that it would be nearly impossible to do so "blind".
Finally, I'm also glad to hear that your personal experiences with Robert have been positive. I have no axe to grind with him beyond what I have articulated in previous posts on this thread.
Vibration isolation in audio is a subject surrounded in mystery half truths and any number of wild theories. As an engineering exercise, the explanation is quite straight foreword and may be explained by the“Theoryof more stuff”.
Take a surface, be it the floor or a table, on which your hi fi component is placed and it is desired to reduce the vibration from thesupport to the equipment. The way this is done is to put “some stuff” between theequipment and the supporting surface. There are three possible outcomes.
1 The vibration in the equipment is more than the vibration in the support.
This is not possible as if it were; the energy crisis would be solved! More
out than what is put in. Free power forever! Unfortunately, this scenario
contradicts the first and second laws ofthermodynamics, so is not
possible.
2 The vibration in the supported equipment will be the same as in the case of no stuff. Thechances of this are one in a million because something has been changed… it may be thesame, but that is extremely unlikely, therefore, the only possibility is,
3 The vibration will be attenuated, to a greater or lesser degree, and this is the case.
There are many products out there that do in fact attenuate vibration. Be it spikes on glass, wood and slate, aluminium spikes in cups, ball bearings in cups, solid plates separated by compliant sheets, lead, Bluetack, sand, marble, concrete, the list is endless. It is also known that multiple combinations of theabove produce better results because there is morestuff. E.g. multiple platforms stacked really high.
The engineering approach is to get the best result in the simplest manner by optimizing the “stuff” and way back about two centuries ago the Victorian engineers came up with thesolution…. the spring! The spring may be anything “springy”, from elastic, rubber, coiled steel, straight steel, air-bladders to flexible wooden strips. As long as it has sufficient spring or compliance, when optimised with an appropriate mass, a mechanical low pass filter is realised.
The ideal is to have the resonant frequency as low as is possible, ideally around 2Hz in both the horizontal and vertical planes and with a damping ratio of about 0.16. This will give an attenuation of about 25dB at 10 Hz increasing at 20dB per decade above. This will ensure excellent isolation for the deleterious audio system vibrations which are from 5Hz to 500Hz.
In all of audio, nothing, and I mean nothing, is easier to test than the effect of vibration on a piece of solid state gear, and yet ... we have zero in terms of verified results.
It’s not hard, vendors. Put a subwoofer next to your preamp and see if it makes a difference.
Of course, tubes are another thing but even those could be measured.
I’m not saying microphonics don’t exist, I’ve definitely heard it. I had a Radio Shack phono preamp that would ring like a bell when struck, probably due to the ceramic caps in the signal path, but today? Meh.
Wake me up when there’s an iota of measured relationship between vibration and output on any piece of modern solid state gear. Then when you've actually measured that then you can tell me what sound isolation works best.
As others have pointed out, whether to absorb or transmit vibration depends on the floor, the equipment and personal preferences. After thirty years of experiments these are my findings:
On speakers. I have gone from spikes to Symposium Svelteshelves first flat on the floor, then on Final Daruma cups and balls to today end up with a cheap set of Chinese springs in cups
On electronic equipment I can’t even remember all the permutations: Sorbothane, then again Darumas, Symposium Svelteshelves, Black Diamond Rcing Cones and today Black Ravioli Big Pads on Gingko Audio platforms
On phono I have used a Townsend Seismic Sink for many years but now prefer spike mounting on a thick, wall mounted acrylic shelf (bearing the scratch marks with philosophic indifference).
In all this journey, two solution stand out: the springs under the speakers resulted in razor sharp soundstaging and lightning fast leading and trailing edges on individual instruments compared to all other solutions.
The Black Ravioli Big Foots are nothing short of sensational: the elimination of power supply as well as air borne vibrations resulted in significant ‘de-sludging’, i.e. an amazing increase of transparency on large orchestral works. It felt that the sound was much less ‘compact’ and closed in.
I'll second the Nobsound springs. I bought after-market springs for their bases. They take less than half the load of the supplied ones (same size). With those, I can fine-tune any component on three pods, using any number of lighter springs required. Now, everything literally gently floats, but no more than 1/8" travel.
With a combination of original and lighter springs all my subs float as well.
My speakers are a pain at 100 lbs (but a joy to my ears). Still, I'm designing a faux-Townshend platform that should utilize much larger 2-7/8" rate-specified springs. Anybody's guess but as prev mentioned, it probably can't hurt (unless the speaker falls over...ouch).
I used 2 set of Springs with damping load for each speakers ( rectangular wood box type 2-way) ... The damping load must be fine tuned exactly by ears in few listening experiments arount + or - 100 grams or less than 1/4 of lbs over the speakers top with around 80 pounds in my case and the load is weighting on 4 springs which are located on top of the speakers on a granite plate (on sorbothane plate) for better stabilty and i also use 4 springs under the speakers too .... The differential compression between the two set of springs, one set is compressed only by the load, the other is compressed by the speakers weight +the load, this differential help resonance control of the speakers a lot by decreasing it ...
I also used a mix of granite plates between cork plate and sorbothane plate and Bamboo plate, quartz feet, under the set of springs/ speakers/second set of spring/85 lbs of dense cement block as damping load on top...
Then it is not only about isolating the speakers from the room and other components and external vibrations isolation but also about damping and decreasing internal resonance effect ...three tasks instead of one...
The end result is stunning... It makes everybody understand that the mechanical control part of audio system matter at least as the electrical and acoustical embeddings control parts...
But it is impractical to do it for most people with children in a living room the way i did it... I describe it for those without children in a dedicated audio room with box speakers because the cost is very low....
Anyway NO ONE know the huge negative effect of vibrations without and BEFORE any experience with the rightful way to limit it... Even after experiencing it it is difficult to believe so much powerful vibrations affect S.Q. Spikes alone are no comparison at all....
i loose my health for few months , my spirit too because i loose my dedicated acoustic room and my house of 40 years ... I was in the complicated process of selling my big house not by choice...And it isnot possible to go on with speakers in a dedicated room in a smaller house, and speakers in an uncontrolled living room are not for me ...I decided then to try a last time a specfic headphone i owned without having used it really because my speakers/room was better than this headphone and better than all my headphones , this K340 was in his untouched non modified and non dedicated state.. i decided to think and experiment with it... I succeeded in improving all my headphones but never enough to satisfy me especially after my room control long experiment...
I loose my password here also 10 months ago and i was not without any acoustic pleasure nor any audio system able to compete with my room/ Speakers , then i did not see the point to come back here only to be sad in the stressing long process of house closure ...
I am coming back after 10 months because now my completely new audio system after 6 months of experiments around the K340 is able to compete if not surpass on many acoustical factors my lost speakers/room which was very good... I went back to a peculiar miraculous headphone AKG K340 hybrid i bought 100 bucks 5 years ago without ever use it really, it takes me 6 months to figure out how it work, because no other headphone is like it acoustically packed with two new technologies, and optimize it ( vibration control and cutting off of some part etc) ... I succeeded, then i am back, and more than happy ...
By the way if i am so happy by the turn of events, it is because even if i could create an acoustic room as i created one, i will never do it again... I will never take the time ( almost 2 years or one year non stop) for the long process of listening experiments to just put in the right place the various passive treatment material and the long process of fine tuning hundred Helmholtz resonators/diffusers all along the speakers and the listening location and some other devices... Too long to do it again... I did not have this kind of patience for a second try.... My headphone are so good now it is impossible to go back to even a dedicated room...i did not believe that headphone can be immersive and speaker like but it is possible with this headphone...The others are trash compared to them for me... Then i am in ectasy... I am here for discussion with friends but i dont need to experiment no more...
For sure it is always possible to improve and upgrade but the only possibility to do it for me in a non marginal useless way will cost me 15,000 bucks... But no new headphone to replace the K340.. My actual system cost 600 bucks... :) But for sure i already know how much and with what...
But i dont feel the need because when i listen music any music the sound aspect limitation are not bothering me at all... A first in my life...
But my password problem is not solved , i am here for the last two days but if i close the computer i will be in the obligation to ask a new confirmation of my password each time ... I dont know why nor how to cure this connection problem...
Thanks for your kindness and i wish you the very best...I missed everyone even those who were a bit hard on me... :)
Welcome back Mahgister! It‘s a great pleasure to have your comments again. I trust you are well.
unfortunately you're wrong concrete vibrates just as bad as a suspended wooden floor except at a different frequency Max Townshend proved that, The best speaker vibration isolation are the Townshend podiums, The isolate all the way down to three hertz, I haven't found any product on the market but can isolate that far down and stop the Earth vibration which is constantly vibrating your speakers they're not cheap but best upgrade I've ever done.
I went from using spikes to damped springs to elastomers to support my heavy (170 lb) speakers/stands.
I liked the sonic changes I heard after going from spikes to springs. The platinum silicone elastomers I am using now behave and sound similar to the springs that I used previously. Based on their oscillation behavior, the elastomers appear to be isolating my speakers down to a very low frequency. The other things I like about the elastomers is how easy they were to set up and how they are ridiculously inexpensive compared to other "audiophile" footer options.
those are less the mirrors will not isolate down to three Hertz like that Townsend podiums do I'm sure if you compare the two you would see how much better the podiums are compared to those things but they're not cheap. but I have no don't that the podiums are on a whole different level better than the elastomers
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