What did you think of the difference between the Wood and the Master?
@dwette The the extra mass (especially in platter) definitely makes a positive difference - in both sonics, and the fact that I’ve experienced (sometimes) woofer flapping with the Compact and Wood but NOT the Master, despite ALL kinds of thrashing with loud music :) The Innovations (Compact / Wood / Master) share very similar sound signature - super clean midband, superb detail, pristine & smooth treble, clean bass - while remaining quite musical. The bearings are all dead quiet and smooooth. The Master just seems extra dynamic and powerful.
I also have SOTAs I like quite a bit - Nova V, Cosmos IV - they’re a tad warmer and "fuzzier" sounding than Clearaudios (sometimes this warmth is nice), very musical, and have GREAT isolation built in (especially Cosmos). I like them a lot. But the best sounding source I’ve ever had is Master / FR64S / Koetsu Blue Lace Diamond - decisively so. The FR64S can’t fit on a SOTA, only the lighter FR64fx, and these things do make a difference.
At times I’ve thought about selling the Master, since the SOTAs seem to get quite close, but at the end of the day - no, I just can’t! I’m certain I would regret it too much. The build is exceptional and it’s a gorgeous statement table. You know what, I just amped myself up again on how much I love it lol.
mulveling, why did you choose Clearaudio turntable ? Did you compare with other brands ? There is quite a choice at this level.
@inna
12 years ago I was looking for something different / better than my old SOTA Star and decided to buy new through my local dealer. Limited to what they had, the Innovation Compact that really clicked with me. I liked its fast, detailed, lively sound. And I love the looks of this series. So I decided to go one up to the Wood. After I bought that, the dealer got a Master for the floor, and one for his home. Then 5 years later I moved up to the "floor" Master. My dealer also had Transrotors and Pro-Jects (absolutely NOT) and in the past had VPIs. I don’t know what came over me to try VPIs a couple years back, but I did and it was fun for a minute but that ended quickly - back to SOTAs and the Master Innovation.
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I always think Linn LP12 because that’s the one that I have been most familiar with. Maybe, it’s short sighted of me but I’ve never felt the need to look at anything more exotic than an LP12.
For a short while, my Klimax LP12 has been at the top of the tree, until Bedrok came along this year. I can’t see me ever buying the new plinth given the disappointingly high cost. Yet reports indicate it is a significant upgrade for the money, so never say never.
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Has anyone thought of the top McIntosh TT at 14k
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I forgot to mention how the VPIs sound versus Clearaudio and SOTA. Aries 3, Avenger Ref. They’re darker sounding. Especially with the 3D and Fatboy arms (I honestly liked the late make metal unipivots). There is a bass-reinforcement effect that can be fun, and some like. In my setup they were extremely reactive to feedback in audible bass frequencies, say 60 - 120 Hz. I think this is part of their sound. The CA Innovations can be reactive in the subsonic range (woofer flapping), due to the magnetic "float" bearing, but are SUPER clean and quiet through the audible specturm.
I think this is why VPIs pair well with Van den Huls, which have super clean bass, a lot of HF energy and firehose of details. With Colibris you can find yourself staving off sibilance, but Crimson & VPI was a really nice balance. I still ended up liking the metal uni better, but see why some like the Fatboys. The plain 3D arm, ugh I hated it.
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@mulveling Thanks for the detailed and very helpful response. I hope to do that upgrade later this year.
I really haven't had any issues with woofer flapping on my Innovation Wood with the Universal arms. I do have it sitting on a HRS R3X isolation platform, with the LF feet factory tuned specifically for the turntable. I have a pair of REL S/510 subs so I should notice if I had an issue. My Boulder phono-stage has a 10Hz low cut filter and I don't notice any difference with it engaged.
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I really haven’t had any issues with woofer flapping on my Innovation Wood with the Universal arms. I do have it sitting on a HRS R3X isolation platform, with the LF feet factory tuned specifically for the turntable. I have a pair of REL S/510 subs so I should notice if I had an issue. My Boulder phono-stage has a 10Hz low cut filter and I don’t notice any difference with it engaged.
@dwette It’s really dependent on your floor, rack, positioning relative to speakers, and how loud you play. I’ve pushed it on all accounts, except for the fact I don’t run subs, at least.
The rumble filters built into phono stages are generally pretty mild - they can help, but not enough in some cases. The KAB filter is much steeper and works well, though perhaps not 100% sonically transparent as advertised. Isolation platforms like from HRS and CMS seem most effective in midrange - my CMS ones didn’t help solve LF issues. LF energy issues can be quite hard to deal with.
Anyways, sounds like you’ve got it all squared away for your setup, and you should benefit from and enjoy your Master upgrade all the same! Great table. I’m happy you’ll get the latest version. I’d really like that for mine, but it would probably be hard to pull off without a lot of additional funds. Clearaudio has worked in improvements over the years, which I like better than the whole Mk 1, 2, 3 [SE] type schemes.
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@newton_john I agree with you, the Bedrok does seem to be priced at a point that is not that attractive. However, like most things in this hobby, I suspect one will come along on the used market, priced at a fraction of new. That would be the time to jump. Patience is the key here.
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mulvelimg,
I see. Are you also familiar with SME turntables ?
Anyone has Walker ?
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Wow it looks like you can buy most of those tables on Amazon. How can you go wrong!
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Well, they can have them all.
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Wow it looks like you can buy most of those tables on Amazon. How can you go wrong!
I clicked through for the Clearaudio Ovation. The link is for the belt. 
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@jwei VPI absolutely belongs on this list. But made in Brooklyn somehow lacks the cachet of more exotic manufacturing locales like Scottish Highlands, the Black Forest or some medieval city in Eastern Europe.
VPI also doesn’t adopt contrarian logic like arguing with the basic laws of Newtonian physics like F=ma, and unlike certain British turntable makers and their penchant for using tiny torque-free clock motors.
However VPIs do routinely run at the correct speed. Quietly, and pretty much forever.
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@panzrwagn
“Scottish Highlands” Do you mean Linn? They are in Glasgow for goodness sake. Hardly an exotic locale.
I don’t doubt the VPI is a superb turntable, but warning bells always ring for me whenever anyone mentions the laws of physics.
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panzrwagn
VPI absolutely belongs on this list. But made in Brooklyn somehow lacks the cachet of more exotic manufacturing locales ...
Yes, I absolutely agree VPI belongs on the list. But they're made in NJ, not Brooklyn. Before that they were headquartered in Queens, iirc.
You might be thinking of Grado, perhaps?
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@inna SME tables don't get much love here. However, I am completely satisfied with my pair of SMEs, even though they are lowly Model 10s. But I stack components, so I'm not a real audiophile....
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I see. Are you also familiar with SME turntables ?
@inna Nope. Their table are less common here in USA I guess, though the arms still get love.
Think you'll be hard pressed to find 'philes who've had more than a few top tables, who are not also involved / staked in the industry in some fashion.
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All the Brands mentioned here are good quality turntables.....I wanted a "musical ...engaging ...natural sound with a 4 K budget......I love my Rega 8 with Aphetta 3 cart. Thanks Rich from Signature Sound.
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dogberry, yes, I don’t hear much about SME turntables. About Nottingham turntables as well, as different as they are.
mulveling, you are right. It’s difficult to even audition them all.
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Do you really hear much of a sound difference between a $2000 turntable and a $50,000 turntable.
I really don't understand turntables.
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"Do you really hear much of a sound difference between a $2000 turntable and a $50,000 turntable."
Yes, “WOW” is much louder when folks see 50k spinner! LOL
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@emergingsoul
Yes. like most audio equipment the difference generally is a significant jump in sound quality (that an non-audiophile could hear) for each doubling of the investment. My analog leg is worth about $50K (including the phonostage) and I got there from a $150 analog end many decades ago. Each step was a significant improvement in sound quality.
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I used to work for Audio Alternative in Lilburn GA and got to play with the Brinkmann 'tables extensively. The Bardo with 10" arm ($14k-17k) and Balance ($40,000) are both wonderful devices, I hope to buy a Bardo myself before I shuffle off this Earth.
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Anyone see let alone hear the American Sound AS 2000? (If you are looking for a price you better be sitting down! 
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@thom_oz Don't go 2 soon. I have a Bardo w Triplaner - quite lovely. Good fortune to you on your quest !
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You certainly do, coltrane1.
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@inna no, its just a troll. Don't feed it.
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I love my vinyl collection and love my Technics SL-QD33. The turntable had been with me for over 30 years and been most reliable. It works well with my setup and sounds incredible, so sorry to say about those $90K turntables. They're utmost beautiful I'm sure...but....
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Well, perhaps the man wants to participate but is not sure exactly how.
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Impossible to unhear the positive impact the RonT tube brinkmann PSU has.. and i have the larger more advanced SS supply…
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I guess most of you have not heard Doehmann. These are by far the best I have heard, regardless of cost.
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Actually yes with built in minus K a Safir arm and a Verismo into exact same downstream CH > Big Magico in a superb room.. The competing setup a Kuza Ref, 4 Point, Kuzma CAR-50 and sitting on another Minus K….
knifefight with no clear winner…. except visual aesthetics and a sizable pile of $$$$$
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laoman, what was especially impressive about Doehmann ?
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Keeps vibrations to an absolute minimum. It runs almost totally silent.
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A discussion around isolation solutions is also interesting for high end turntables. They are a must, IMO.
Right now I have a HRS R3X isolation base for my Clearaudio Innovation. If I upgrade my Innovation to the Master Innovation I will need new feet at a minimum, but have considered other options. One is to move up the line to the HRS S3 or even a M3X2. Another possibility is to get a HRS EXR 3-shelf rack, and put isolation bases on two of the shelves for my turntable and phono-stage. At that point I'd have room for a larger isolation base, so a Minus-K for the turntable is an option.
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Yeah, you upgrade the turntable and upgrade isolation base for it.
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@dwette Agree, right now both of my TT live on HRS bases. The Denon uses Vortex footers.. All my components live on HRS Nimbus couplers, many w HRS damping blocks and i also use custom Core Audio Design shelves - they are a very unique massive constrained layer design…. Fun…
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Yeah, anyone getting spendy on turntables and ignoring isolation is more likely than not throwing good money after bad. Adding a first class isolation base to a turntable is like getting an upgraded turntable. It's more often than not a real game changer when approached adequately.
I really want to try a Minus-K.
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whart has it for his Kuzma Reference table, you could talk to him.
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Whart is on speed dial…
As @dogberry mentioned and i agree.. SME should get more TT love here ( my edit along with Basis ) A very good friend has a 20 SME w Reed arm and lovely Core Audio isolation…. fantastic organic musical…
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I’m a little surprised that Acoustic Signature did not make it onto the conversation. Many good options if tables and arms from this company. I have there Hurricane with two arms. The TA5000 9 inch and TA2000 12 inch. Running Hana Red and Dynavector TKR. Good value in my opinion.
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The Minus-K is extremely impressive because it has such a ridiculously low resonant frequency - like 0.5 Hz or less in one of the directions. So it's truly effective at full-range isolation. Watch some videos of it in action; it's like magic. A really good, well-tuned spring suspension is a little higher in resonant frequency, but still very effective. Squishy feet / layers are much less effective at isolating lower bass frequencies, but still have some positive effect here. I think harder layers and platforms are really only effective at the midrange and up - no doubt, there is much good to be done here, but it's limited in range. Adding mass can help but it needs to be added in the right place in the right way, and with enough rigidity to suport it - yada yada. You could actually make things worse in some cases by carelessly adding mass (e.g. heavy turntable atop a cheap tower rack).
Anyways - yeah, the Minus-K "negative stiffness" tech looks super impressive and is on my bucket list to try some day :)
I suppose you could say guys like me with an expensive deck (Master Innovation) and no Minus-K have the audiophile equivalent of a "kick me" sign on our backs lol. I have my Master on a CMS Maxxum rack which is no joke - but still, I think a Minus-K would be best. The SOTAs are simply life on "easy mode" by comparison. Especially the Csomos, which has extra mass in its subchassis. Just really super chill and immune to all the nonsense happening around it (caused by me!).
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@mulveling yeah, I've been thinking that if I go through with that Master Innovation upgrade I should really include the Minus-K in my budget. If the windfall I expect affords me the Master it will afford the Minus-K as well. :)
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Minus K requires a few specs to get started… center of mass, total mass and envelope dimensions..mostly the feet touch points… about $5 K for the Kuzma i spoke about… would be similar for my Bardo. Think aerospace lab optical / laser bench vibration isolation = minus K
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@dwette Wow… they have come a long way… my initial inquiry about the Brinkmann went off to Engineering and at that time… about 4 years ago..a quick quote of $5 K..
i should revisit… now… where did i put that 3rd TT ? Actually it’s over Italian Mag lev feet…
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@dwette
Wow, that's an awesome find. Seems like a ridiculous bargain in this context. I've spent this kind of money on just a couple of CMS platforms, and they surely don't help solve problems in bass frequencies - which (I imagine) the Minus-K should soak up like nothing, based on the physics. Like @tomic601 , I should've revisited more recently.
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@mulveling My current thought – if I upgrade to Master Innovation – is to get a three-shelf HRS EXR rack for the phono-stage and TT, with a Minus-K under the TT. I'll repurpose the HRS R3x isolation base I have (with the right feet) for the phono-stage.
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If you guys want to see something wild - check out these 2 video clips I made a couple years ago, with a VPI Aries 3, stylus in groove (at rest), and system on with volume set to "loud" listening level. This was my "energetic" problem room (small office).
https://imgur.com/a/HMASPUi
The 1st video shows extreme excitation at ~ 100-ish Hz from lightly tapping the shelf surface the TT sits on. It’s literally like a drum. Laptop speakers won’t reproduce this frequency; you need headphones or desktop speakers. And turn the video volume up. I could absolutely hear this frequency creep during playback, from feedback. It sounds remarkably like a ground hum, except that it rises as you increase volume. At a certain point, it can runaway (very bad, had to keep a finger on mute).
2nd video shows a greatly reduced effect, even as I slap the platform much harder! And it’s at the same system volume level. This is thanks to the metal 10.5i arm and HW-40 feet (squishy foam - with hockey pucks for spacers), versus the 3D arm and Classic Signature feet (hard - with Herbie’s giant fat dots for spacers). I should have made a video with the same feet, to show that much of the blame actually goes to the 3D arm. Fatboy arms were a similar story.
That’s a not-cheap CMS Sotto Voce rack and $2K Platinum shelf. Completely useless at this frequency! In the end, I think the rack’s architecture, table plinth design, and 3D tonearm are all to blame. And the Avenger Reference did nothing to help here. I thought its tripod plinth design might help, but it didn’t. Might have a video of that floating around somewhere.
Anyways, the Clearaudio Innovation compact had NO problems at 100Hz, but you had to watch subsonic feedback for woofer flapping (dangerous) - that’s from the float bearing IMO (again, the Master adds enough mass it’s less problematic). You can put this on a Townshend spring platform and it helps a lot! The problem with the VPIs, is their size makes it hard to fit onto a Townshend if you’re space constrained. I guess I should’ve tried the pods.
And the SOTA Cosmos, of course that does fine no problems :)
If I could re-do the rack choice I’d get an Adona with the cross-bracing. I think rigidity - in all directions - is a rack’s #1 job.
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