Well, in my room, I agree, the louder usually, means ‘more forward’ and I lose the soundstage. But again, my room. If it was larger, and I sat further away, I might be able to crank it to 90 more often, and still be ‘in scale’.
Turn down the Volume!
One topic that seems rarely discussed is volume. If you listen to mixing engineers, it’s their most feared aspect of how their work is measured, since it’s out of their control. This leads to things like loudness wars (assume the worst). As my system has improved, my main takeaway is I can be engaged with 60db peaks, where when I hear other systems you often have to turn it up to 90db peaks for it to sound decent. I’m pretty sure it all has to do with bass and room energy, but wonder if others have a similar experience. Side note that reviews or any subjective ‘better’ statements about gear rarely indicate how loud they are listening. since all we can perceive if volume it is puzzling. I will say if it sounds good with 110 db peaks then that is impressive.
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@bkeske I think that’s what I’m trying to address. When auditioning a new amp/ preamp, the music was lifeless and dull until it got to that 80 db area. But with my normal system it sounds great at 60. So it seems to impact the hobby and wondered why it isn’t mentioned more. Especially in reviews it never mentions listening levels. Also at 60 the music is just as lively, just perhaps ‘farther away’ in the soundstage. |
For me, it’s simple. I raise the volume to the point of the music, whatever it may be, sounds realistic and actually scales per the performance. If it is louder, it seems artificial and too large, too quiet, the opposite. I would say for most all, it is between 75-85 db. If louder, it typically means that it is still a realistic ‘size’ in my room. |
Thanks. Those are very interesting. I have a general understanding, but was interesting to see the details. I started plugging my ears at concerts 30 years ago as I started to realize I really did not want to damage my hearing and most electrified concerts are too loud. I just stopped attending electrified concerts about 15 years ago; they sound terrible and are usually too loud. |
i think people know this, but just in case... https://www.noisyplanet.nidcd.nih.gov/parents/too-loud-too-long https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/hearing_loss/what_noises_cause_hearing_loss.html https://leader.pubs.asha.org/do/10.1044/leader.FTR2.25052020.52 https://www.miracle-ear.com/blog-news/what-is-loud-decibel-chart |
It’s always something. Auto tune is the new compression! Which was EQuing the old Compression lol compression is a tool. Used well and judiciously, it shouldn’t be noticed by even good ears. There were loudness wars…mainly started by competing FM stations trying to pump up the volume which in turn led to artists wanting their songs to “stand out” vs the “competition.” Louder sounds “better” in comparison situations which is why AB testing requires volume matching A and B! The transition from CD’s to streaming should, and is resolving this. Also I believe the FCC stepped in with terrestrial broadcasting. Most if not all streaming services have volume moderation algorithms in place. Rick Beato has a good YT video on compression and Tim Pierce (maybe Rhett Schul) cover how compression on guitars is used in recording…all on their YT Channels. I was going to post on a related issue. But what the heck it involves loudness. Anyway, I happen to like the sound of tubes combined with good solid state. For years, I have had a CJ tube preamp into a Krell solid state set up. Recently I upgraded to a better CJ and discovered what I think is too often overlooked. I also feel kinda dummy like not knowing this fact of life but…the output impedance of a pre amp needs to be matched to the impedance of the amp. (A side issue is the current delivered to your speakers..not so much the rms stuff). I found I could not set the CJ volume control at any reasonable level without getting an unacceptable overall volume level from my speakers. I called CJ and they recommended attenuators. I now use them to lower the input into the Krell by 10db. I believe there is a volume sweet spot for most systems. My Swart guitar amp at 5w I think many of us need to consider where our systems sound best. It is important to consider the source material. So many CD’s (especially) are just poorly recorded. It’s not the playback. A badly compressed cd will sound bad regardless of what adjustments we make in our playback.
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There certainly are more fitting volume levels depending on the source material, as has been pointed to - for some musical content more rigidly than others. Watching movies the reference volume level is adjusted from the most natural dialogue reproduction SPL-wise around which the rest of the soundscape then "settles" itself, and this can lead to rather staggering macro-dynamic outburst while also accommodating proper intelligibility in quieter scenes. The sheer breadth in sound design and the variety presented with movies, both with regard to dynamic bandwidth as well as the specific sound design elements can be an impressive experience to witness when capably reproduced, while also being a tough test for one's speaker setup and its abilities into versatility; where for most audiophiles music may be the exclusive tool to evaluate system performance, I include movies (Blu-ray's/4K UHD's) as an additional testing means, finding this to reveal more effectively reveal the truer potential and possible limitations of one's speaker setup (+ remaining gear and acoustics), and the qualities I deem important here. Unless as a background experience I prefer movies and well-recorded classical music reproduced at their more or less rigid reference volume levels, whereas other musical genres would seem more accommodating for enjoyment at lower levels. I love listening to jazz piano (like Keith Jarrett) at lower levels in the late evenings, as well as jazz in general, and fortunately I have the setup to make it come alive at lower levels. While as a system ability sonic proficiency of lower levels is vital to me I wouldn't want to be without the effortless presentation at the other end of the SPL-spectrum either. To some loud playback may be regarded as the young individual's (fool's) game, but in measured doses and as mostly dynamic peaks emulating live events I find it to be indispensable reflecting musical (and movie) material. Indeed, since I started these audio endeavors my system has become better at playing at lower levels as well as loud beyond measure, which is what really matters in an effort to encompass most material. |
I learned a long time ago. It is not how loud your system can play, it is how soft your system can play and bring you all the detail and expressions you want. Good thing I practice that. In my present living conditions, it is essential. Or I'll get evicted. I chuckle to myself when I hear or someone tells me, "It sound better the louder I play it". Sure, it does sound great. Turn the level down, the bass disappears and image collapses. Okay.... not for me. |
Just wanted to note that this is one reason trying to compare speakers online on YouTube is at best a crapshoot. Is that honkiness you hear in the midrange or shrillness or grit in the tweeter always present in the speaker or are they overdriving the Hell out of it? How good of a mic are they using? What is its frequency range, distortion, how good was the mic preamp and did they know how to properly use it? Without knowing to what level at 1m the speakers are being driven to there’s no way to do any real comparisons. |
This is one of those topics that can get lost in being to general of an approach. Volume is going to sound different to each individual that is a given and I won’t say anymore on that. My comments are more aimed at the quality and what is behind the volume. To often listeners get hung up on watts per channel as the measurement of an amps power. They don’t look further and realize that that is a very small part of what is driving the speakers. There are 500 wpc amps that can’t drive speakers snd then there are 10 wpc amps that can make them sing. They did not name the company “First Watt” as a gimmick, they did because that first watt is the most important. All amps and speakers have their sweet spots where they will sound their best and the “volume” is only the end result and not the cause. Enjoy the music and journey it takes you on! |
Kind of amazed at this thread. I good system played low is nice but a bad system has to be played low. a bad system when it is turned off your ears feel like oh that's better one if the things I think does that is a bright system. S great system you can listen to for eight hours straight without getting tired of it with total engagement the whole time. With a great system you listen to a whole side of an lp or the while cd not just one song sne on to the next. Personally I don't think it is hi-fi without transparency. That is the first thing I listen for and if it is not at least least somewhat transparent I don't want to hear more than five seconds. Time to leave the room. When the tonal balance is right and when it is transparent you have the option of what volume you want to listen to. When those are not right you don't have an option on what level you want to listen at the only option is to go turn it off.
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@curtdr that was what I experienced. Very clean but still loud. For his speakers though, he was very focused on midrange, it felt like if there was more bass then you wouldn’t need that volume. Seems like your system and the heresy balances better. |
@dain. Well, I can’t speak for all horns, just the ones I own, the Heresy IV, but they play so cleanly that they can get actually very loud without seeming as loud as they are... I’m not sure what you mean by focus, but the Heresy have a large soundstage without losing imaging, to the extent that it’s almost bizarre, and I can sit off to the side and still experience the imaging effects. They are remarkable speakers in that I’ve never really experienced anything quite like them. Plus, to the topic, all those qualities hold even at low volumes, including a non-boomy bass that somehow still pushes against my chest and pulses my legs ... even at low volumes! However, I also get great dispersion and imaging and sound quality from my good old Epicures (updated w Human Speakers parts now, so they’re even better although the originals were already excellent), including engaging bass that tickles the eardrums even at low volumes, though it doesn’t have the chest push of the Heresy... The Heresy and the Epi 100 speakers are very different in their designs and approaches, but both are excellent at low volumes. So, I think it’s not the design itself that matters, but the execution and the quality of the drivers. And yes, a sub or two done right can certainly help maintain the foundational bass at low volumes. I just use one modest but high-quality sub set to unobtrusive levels with low (40hz) cutoff levels because I believe in running speakers the full range that they were designed for, if they are designed and excecuted well, but either set of my speakers would still be excellent without it and in fact I ran w my Epi 100 for many years w/o a sub and they were fine indeed still at low volumes (or high). |
@curtdr I have the opposite sort of speakers (Magnepan) but a friend has horns. Listening to his system once and while it didn’t ‘seem’ loud, I checked and it was actually over 100db in average. Now perhaps it’s a mistake but could the ‘focus’ of horns have this effect? Bass also plays a huge role, having twin subs seems to counterintuitivey let me turn things down. |
@patrickdowns that seems familiar. I haven’t experimented too much but recently tried several preamps. I’m still confused as to what a high quality preamp does, but in this instance the one I tried needed to be quite loud to have any impact compared to the great one I currently have. So that’s an area to explore. I figured it was more about amps, but perhaps it’s about the lowest current gains. I also have a fully balanced system so that seems to raise the average outputs, but as with all systems it seems to do with synergy. |
If your speakers are good enough, low volumes will still be engaging. Over the years I’ve had great success at highly enjoyable low-volume listening with the famed Epi 100 speakers (Epicure)... they sound excellent at any volume... and with almost any amp, for that matter. Now, I recently got Klipsch Heresy IV - yep, my first ever horn speakers, and the horn high-efficiency aspect has been discussed by other posters - and I am delighted to report that they do project magic into the room even at very low volumes and quiet night time listening. Of course, they sound super when cranked up too, but a real test of quality speakers is Do They Sound Good At Any Volume, Including Low Volume. |
a minority opinion here- what would benefit most systems in most listening environments the most, is a good compressor. the compressor would raise the bottom level of the music where it can more easily be heard above the environmental noise floor, so less overall volume is required to feel like one isn't missing the quiet bits. the record [LP and 78] engineers of old knew what they were doing when they had to restrict the dynamic range within about 40-50 db, as most people's total systems [including their listening environment and people within and around that environment] couldn't handle a greater dynamic range. |
Ah…. Would be so great to live in an area where the ambient db level is as low as the 20’s. Lowest we get in in the mid to low 40’s (would have to build a dedicated listening room to get that kind of ambient control where we live). As @sns points out, that can really make a difference in micro detail/dynamics. Had the pleaser of listening to a room systems with that benefit and it’s astonishing how little you need to drive the music. But ultimately depends on how the music is performed and recorded. |
Ambient noise levels have much impact on volume level needed for satisfying listening. Late night listening sessions, when external noise lower contributes nicely. Think about ambient noise levels at 50-60db in daytime vs. late night when I can reach down into 20's on good night, typically lower 30's, think how this 20-40db difference impacts dynamics, especially the micro! Micro dynamics give life to the performers, macro less important to this once a certain volume reached. |
I don’t know what decibel I listen but I know a lot of HiFi stores turned me off because they played the music too loud IMO. I guess they were trying to impress me. Yet I generally play it louder than the casual listener. Often I don’t really think my system is that loud til I go to speak to my wife and I have to raise my voice quite a bit. This was one of the surprises to me is that it doesn’t sound that loud til i go to talk and I have a loud voice. However I am of the opinion that every album has a sweet spot where the volume is optimal for that album. I usually try to find that. I guess I need a db meter. tried on on my phone but didn’t trust its accuracy |
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As @ghdprentice said, this can be really challenging with content with wide dynamic range - particularly classical. Fortunately, a good bit of my listening genres have pretty narrow dynamic ranges, so moderate volumes sound great. Occasionally on a great live album, I just have to be in attendance 😁 |
Protect your ears! Mine are 64 years old, and I am glad that I only have minor tinnitus and the typical high frequency loss above 12k. I’ve always avoided ear-damaging loud noise, including at concerts where I always wore ear plugs or improvised with kleenex. On the gun range, I’ve long used electronic muffs with foam plugs, double the protection. |
My previous system I called my “reference system “ as it was really good at reproducing the venue, scale, and volume of music. It was very detailed and dynamic… encouraging me to match the venue. I have season tickets to the symphony.
So, I went through a period where I tried to find the “correct volume”. This is particularly important in classical since the entire dynamic is used… from the very quietest sound… a single flute played at low volume… slowly emerging from the dead silent background, to a crescendo over 100db with the whole 80 per orchestra playing at once. So, if the volume is too low… you miss the quiet passages… if too loud.. the crescendos are ear splitting.
Anyway, I spent a bought six months getting myself calibrated to adjust the volume correctly for that system.
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@larryi +1 As my system has gotten better, less and less volume is required. I am sure there is more than a couple reasons. But the first most obvious is the noise floor. Less expensive and old systems like in my youth had very high noise floors. Often it takes experience to “hear” this…. It is the jacked up quality to the sound and pressure on your ear drums. So, turning up the volume you are looking to increase the dynamics… the contrast. This also increases the noise floor. Good systems tend to have a place where they sound best, balancing noise and dynamics. Great systems sound great at all volumes. This I one of the marks of a great system. They are engaging at a whisper and 90db. I remember being impressed going to a high end audio store in 1980 and achieving 110 db. The salesmen and I were really psyched at what we had done… but my ears were practically ringing. It was the incredible volume of the stuff in between the notes.
There are other reasons, faster bass transients…. And greater articulation. Decade after decade as my systems improved the volume required the music sound great and dynamic has come down. While I used to play in the 90db range in the 1980s… now in the low 60’s to 70’s db. The music is completely satisfying.
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as with everything in hifi (and life in general), the key is finding the right balance, the correct degree of moderation, avoid excess for me, low level sound quality is important, but we of course understand how we hear, and the fletcher munson effect, so we need to realize low level listening has its own challenges - still we live in domestic environments, and so low level listening for many is a must, so their systems better to tuned to sound good at levels they listen at otoh, reproduced music can and should take on a scale and impact somewhat approximating a live performance... so to experience that, one needs to have the volume to a level where a piano sounds like a real piano, a real bass has the body and weight of a real bass, and so on... this requires a decent level of spl’s for me, i do try to listen in the range of 80-85 db peaks, and do alot to try to preserve, and protect my hearing, which is obviously essential to our continuing to enjoy the hobby |
To me, one of the most important subjective measure of a system is how it sounds at low volume. As a system improves, one can enjoy the sound at lower and lower volume levels--it still sounds vibrant and rich and seems to fill the entire listening room. High efficiency systems, particularly horn systems seem to do this better than other kinds of speakers. That might explain why Japanese audiophiles have huge horn systems in their tiny apartment rooms (being culturally polite, they would not play the system so loud as to disturb neighbors). It is, to me, wrong headed to seek a large horn system because that size suggests high volume capability--that may be the case, but, I still prefer horns that sing at quite low volume. I have recently heard multi-way systems built around a wide-range driver (e.g., Cube Audio Nenuphar Basis) and even some single-driver systems that pull this off successfully (e.g., Charney Audio Companion). |
I received some great audio advice early in my 20’s from a 75 year old, tone deaf, audio store owner who built his own speakers. In his store, he had an LED watt meter so when we cranked the music, we could see how many watts we were really listening to. We were amazed at how loud 1-2 watts could be! His advice was to turn the music lower and save our ears, they are the only ones we get. As a result, I’ve always had a preference for low wattage gear. |
