I’m intrigued by the balanced inputs of the BAT. Does anyone know if that adds anything to the sound quality from a turntable input?
@stewartgr I do! We've been making balanced tube preamps (with balanced tube phono sections) longer than anyone else worldwide.
The thing that balanced line is supposed to bring to the table is immunity to cable artifacts (and also immunity to ground loops). If you've ever auditioned cables and heard a difference you know what I'm talking about. To do this you have to support the balanced line standard also known as AES48. Its handy also if the source is also very low impedance.
In the case of a LOMC cartridge, both aspects are there. So the real issue is the tonearm cable if your phono section has a balanced input. I think we can all agree that if there is any place in the system where the cable has to get it right, its the tonearm cable since it will not matter how good your preamp, amps and speakers are, nothing downstream can fix a problem introduced upstream.
In a nutshell you get a signal from the phono that is more accurate and natural.
That weird ground wire that no other single-ended source seems to need goes away; that is used when you are connecting a balanced source to a single-ended input. Instead the ground connection is the shield of the cable and is tied to pin 1 of the XLRs of each channel. This works very well with arms that use a 5 pin DIN connector and its also possible if the tonearm has RCA outputs with a ground post (we make a special cable for that but any competent technician can too).
The tonearm cable does not have to be expensive! All it needs to be is low capacitance and built correctly.
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Not sure you can generalize - I use two solid state phono stages and one tube based one and all sound quite good. The best is a solid state classic - the John Curl Vendetta which is the best I have heard although we ran it against a last model Herron VTPH - 2A with which it was neck and neck.
My tube stage is a CJ Premier 15 and although an older model it also is a good sounding phono stage.
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Zesto is great gear. If I went to a tube phono stage it would be a Zesto. George and Carolyn Counnas are some of the nicest people you will ever deal with in this hobby. Excellent customer service and equipment
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As you narrow your selection down look for one with multiple loading selections , on the fly is also a nice feature . It might also be beneficial if you go with tubes , to look for one with the same type tubes in your preamp making tube rolling easier .
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Sutherland makes some nice phono preamps. I'm using a relatively inexpensive TZ Vibe with a Hana ML moving coil cartridge. It sounds great to me, but I'm not a real vinyl guru.
I have a tube preamp and solid state amp.
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Look into the DS Audio cartridge and transformer system. I have the entry level DS E1. LOVE it.
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Tube all the way! I love my zesto had a Tavish and project tube box prior. Vinyl is about holographic shapes and tubes bring that out.
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I listen to Rock, Classical, Jazz, and a little Pop and am very happy with my system. I currently use a Hanna ML (MC) > Zesto Andros 1.2 Phono > ARC 6SE Pre...
The sound is very neutral, clean and full range without being analytical. I never tire of listening to it. With that in mind, the Phono Pre is an older model, and I am considering a replacement.
I am considering both an ARC (PH or Ref.) and the Zesto II Deluxe (Absolute Sound 2022 Phonostage 'Product of the Year', if that is interest)
That being said, I love working with George (Mr. Zesto). HE answers the phone (or HE quickly calls you back) - No gate-keeper (which has been my experience at ARC).
Good luck with your search, and please post and update-review
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I mostly listen to jazz,pop and instrumental musiC
i suspect Tubes are not that friendly if you play Rock and Roll and Metallica
then you need Solid state Amps etc
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I am sure you will be happy with AR Phono Ref3SE
For system synergy I much prefer AR resolution over Mcintosh. I have clear Audi innovation wood TT with Davinci v2 cart.
Ref160M&ref3se pre amp
my other system is Conrad Johnson all tubes
ART27A,Art88,Art phono again with Rega Naia
resolving but enjoyable systems
so no worries here about Tuby or Warm sound
current systems are more resolving , than ever before.
Syd
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Oops. I meant ARC Reference 3SE or 3 phonostage… I accidentally put the preamp models.
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I have an all tube system. Two PrimaLuna EVO 400 power amps plus EVO 400 preamp. I first had the EAT E Glo S and now the ModWright PH 9.0 XT. The ModWright is an excellent phono stage. I highly recommend a tube phono stage. The PrimaLuna EVO 100 phono stage also very good. The gain is marginal so careful with the cartridge selection.
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I’ve the black ice audio F159 which is a hybrid SS / tube preamp, totally transformed my phono side of my system. I run ML electrostatics and the dynamics are definitely there but also wonderful midrange and bass. I had a rather average cartridge that sounded unimpressive with the built in phono preamp in my preamp and it became impressive immediately.
upgraded to the Hana ML MC and damn….
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Thank you everyone for the recommendations. I’ll probably end up getting the AR Ref 3SE to match my system but will try to demo a few others. I’m intrigued by the balanced inputs of the BAT. Does anyone know if that adds anything to the sound quality from a turntable input?
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your concern isnt relevant to high quality tube phono stages. you can get the transparency and the natural sound.
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As others have said, Audio Research for system synergy.
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Lots of really good recommendations and best of luck. Got to hand it to posters on this site, they really helped when I got started. Have an Allnic 7000 H and must say their phonos are generally the best in their lineup. I must say though, BAT upper end phono stages will absolutely slam you. They have balanced inputs also.
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Neither :-) Pass XP Phono on MOSFETs.
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I have an all ARC system and have used solid state and tube phono stages with it. (Starting out, I thought perhaps solid state would be the way to go). The ARC phono stages provide a synergy with their amps and preamps that cannot be beat with anything I've heard. I have the Ref Phono 2 SE , Ref160Ms and Ref 40 with TechDas Airforce 3 Premium S and various carts including Lyra Atlas Lambda SL and Dynavector XV 1t .
Can hardly stand to listen to my CDs.
Dynamic and musical. Not at all too warm. Go with ARC.
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Personally, I’ve never had a solid state phono stage that satisfied me. But admittedly, I have not tried many: a 2-box Trichord Delphini 25 years ago, which was left in the dust by a succession of tube phonos; and recently, a MoFi MasterPhono bought mostly for its current drive. But it did not have the holography and palpability of image (along with excellent dynamics) that I prefer, and which are characteristic of good tube phonos, so I sent it back. I do plan to try the Channel D Lino 3.3 soon, another SS current drive. We’ll see. Return policies are a godsend.
I should add that my tube phonos—and most on the market—incorporate step up transformers, adding gain for LOMCs without extra noise. I’ve never owned an all-tube phono stage but I’ve heard a few.
if you’re looking for a tube-based phono with superb dynamics, I can recommend the Manley Steelhead. When I owned it, I thought that was its forte. Along with great flexibility.
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I’m worried a tube phono stage may make the vinyl too warm sounding and not dynamic enough.
@stewartgr Dynamics only comes from the signal. If it seems to come from the electronics, its because of distortion.
Its much harder to build solid state phono sections that don't have problems with RFI. The reason this is important is LOMC cartridges generate RFI while playing. If the phono section can't handle it (and it can be as much as 30dB higher level than the signal itself) then it likely won't sound right. This has resulted in the use of 'cartridge loading resistors' which are really for the benefit of the phono section because they kill the RFI.
So if the manufacturer has a front panel 'loading' switch there's a pretty good chance they don't understand how this works. Actually its electronics 101 in the first week of college; when you put an inductance (the cartridge) in parallel with a capacitance (the tonearm cable) then you get an electrical resonance. In the case of LOMC cartridges this can be up to 5MHz. You can also search to see if people are using loading resistors with cartridges while using the phono section you have in mind.
A nice side benefit of the phono preamp being insensitive to RFI is its very likely you'll get less ticks and pops. That RFI I mentioned can overload the input of the phono section and when that happens it can generate ticks and pops.
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Audio Research Reference phono stage. If in your budget a 6SE or used 6. Exceptional phonostage and synergistic with the rest of your system. This is what I have and would not change it out. I have had Audio Reseach phonostages for over thirty years. At each juncture reasearch and listening has immediately led me back to stay with Audio Research. Also, I discovered the synergy of Sonus Faber, Audio Research and Transparent completely independent of the adage.
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@big_greg,
I've never thought about adding AR to my system protection!
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You won't go wrong adding another AR piece to your system. That would be the first place I'd look in your position.
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As a very general observation: if your tube system is in danger of lacking good dynamics, something is wrong. At moderate to low volume levels, I expect tube gear to sound considerably more dynamic and alive than solid state. As a more specific observation, your particular tube electronics is on the leaner side, not the warmer side, of tube electronics; for my taste, I would want a quite warm sounding phono stage in that setup.
I have heard, and liked phono stages from Lector (Italian, tube) and Audio Note (requires SUT for MC, very expensive), Allnic and Zanden. I own the Italian Viva Fono myself.
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The ARC Ref Phono preamps are quiet and transparent - not tubey at all. Your Ref 6 will sound great with a Ref Phono 2 or 3.
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I agree with @knotscott, there are good (and not so good) examples of both topologies. Generally speaking, good SS phono stages can be had at moderate cost. If you want a quiet and dynamic tube phono stage, the cost of entry will go up. At least that's been my experience.
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It really depends on the specific example of each, as opposed to a broad generalization. There are excellent examples of both technologies, so I’m confident you can find examples of either that will play well with the rest of your system.
I went with a solid state Hagerman Bugle based on cost/curiosity, and was pleasantly surprised...especially after making some mods. However, Hagerman's upper line is tube, which I'm ultimately interested in. (Cornet MM/ Trumpet MC)
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