Thinking about upgrading, but wondering about diminishing returns
I have mostly Conrad Johnson Gear-- LP260M SE mono blocks, with 8 kt120 tubes each. These are SET amps that put out 270 wpc. I have the Conrad Johnson ET5 preamp, with a Telefunken 6922 tube, and a pair of EgglestonWorks Viginti speakers (their new take on the Andra's). Phono stage is the Pass Labs XP-15. For source material I have a Rega RP10 with the Apheta2 cartridge, and the Oppo BDP105 (Modwright upgrades) CD player. I have Audioquest Colorado interconnects (go easy here :) ) and Audioquest Oaks for speaker cable. My listening room is 13 x 19, carpeted floor, drywall walls and ceiling (well insulated). I set up with the equipment on the long wall, with me listening from the 13' side (with speakers in about 2 feet and about 8.5 feet apart).
I listen to a mix of vinyl and cd's; vinyl when I have several hours to listen quietly (and clean the records on the Clear Audio Matrix Pro Record Cleaning Machine). I listen to CD's when I have less than an hour, and for when I work out.
I am thinking about upgrading a single component, probably my preamplifier, to a Conrad Johnson GAT2 or a Pass Labs XS preamp (solid state). My thought was that this will likely make the most improvement in soundstage, imaging and overall musicality. A used GAT2 will be at least $14K and the Pass XS used is about $19K. I am interested in hearing from those who have had experience with upgrades like this. I am also wondering (as a middle class guy) how close does this come to the law of diminishing returns? Finally, is this the component you would upgrade, and if so, if you had a wide range of musical tastes-- mostly classical/full orchestra in vinyl and rock on CD's, which preamp would you select?
Please feel free to take a swipe at these questions, and also feel free to point out if you feel I should be asking different questions that will help increase my knowledge and advance the cause for others.
I am likely to go to an audio show sometime, but please don't suggest that I go and listen to the gear, as that's at least 200 - 400 miles, and I don't feel right about going to a brick and mortar store knowing that I will almost surely buy used.
Thanks in advance for whatever assistance you can provide.
Ill second GIK room treatments. I’m in the middle of treating my room. I just added GIK absorbers at first and second reflection points. WOW. Sounds as if I upgraded my system instantly. My next move is corner bass traps then ceiling absorbers. Cable differences are much more apparent with my treatments. I just purchased new ZU Event power cables for my amp and pre. Background seems a little darker ( just a tad). Im not certain if I would notice without the treatments. |
I’m in a similar gear setup as yours and one thing I’ve done that has vastly improved my enjoyment is getting a Tidal subscription and listening to the MQA titles there: wow. I wasn’t a big believer in MQA but hearing it has changed my mind. One great thing about Tidal is they have the standard CD-quality version as well, giving you the ability to A-B all the titles. Anyway, just a thought; sometimes it’s nice to have your focus shift back to the music, instead of that “new gear” trap we all fall into. Good luck! |
@lous I'm sorry to hear that your Sota/Souther/Benz analog front end caused LPs to sound less than good overall. My VPI TNTVI/SME IV modified/Benz Ruby3 on a Townsend Sink sounds fantastic. Most LPs are quiet to as quiet as a CD. Used LPs sound great despite the imperfections. Record noise is in the background while the music is dynamic (I resell poor sounding/inferior performance recordings-to date 18,000 records have visited and left my music room). I have great cabling and equipment which minimize extraneous noise relative to the music. 78s often sound very dynamic with great performances. The Sugarcube digital pop and crackle remover works on any recording that has such and is easy and very effective as heard on many internet demos. I found that a dozen well placed PP Omega E-Mats to be a fantastic enhancer of music enjoyment; however, the new Gate appears to kill the need for a dozen's cost by providing 100X the effectiveness at $5K. I was hoping that the E-Mats placement at equipment locations are substantial enhancements on their own and would add more than their cost to the Gate. PPs manufacturer could better address this issue. |
I am a novice entering the audiophile world. This said, I don't know how upgrading and spending so much money on speaker cables can make that much of a difference in sound. I wonder if someone could explain this to me, as I have read several articles where the author said expensive speaker cables are a waste of money. However, before considering expensive speaker cable, I would be more inclined to purchase more expensive speakers. I agree with some of you. Going to an audio show to listen to various systems will certainly help you to make your decision. However, many of the vendors who are demonstrating their gear are doing so in inferior listening rooms. |
Lots of good responses here. I agree with most of these and wouldn’t really add much. i too have an all CJ system that lives in my living room. I do not have the luxury of having a dedicated sound room. I recently removed all the furniture from the room and was shocked by how amazing the system sounded. Made me realize that room treatment was holding me back. Now what to do.... |
+1 for going to an audio show. I've only been to one - RMAF, but it was so worth it, and for several reasons. First - you get to check out a ton of systems, starting from $1,500 all the way to high six digits. Second, you get to find out where you are at (in non-absolute and somewhat subjective terms, but still - unless you have access to unlimited amounts of cash you will never be able to setup all these systems in your house!). I was pleasantly surprised to find out how good my system sounds vs. quite a few others with twice the money. I was also caught off guard how some systems under $10K really pulled me in. I look for a good value (best price/performance ratio) when it comes to a system setup rather than having a "Star component A" that makes it all worth while. Third, you get to meet a lot of cool people and tap the vast pool of knowledge and experience. All sorts of cool giveaways and raffles are held throughout the show, I saw a guy win a pair of $5K Nordost interconnects! Go, have fun! |
There are lots of ideas here. Maybe, buried in all these suggestions, is the one that will transform your system as if by magic. But how will you know? Not mentioned is how your room is treated. The room is the most important component. If you haven't treated it, then start there before you change the gear at all. I promise you will hear the difference. |
I agree with those who suggest that you look into up grading your cabling. AS an overall guide towards an investment strategy to achieving your goals of improving your soundstage, imaging and overall musicality - Text Book - one should invest about 25-30% of the total budget into cabling/power delivery. Power is the most important foundation of your system. I would say that the MRSP of what you have is upwards of $70K, which means that an investment of about $20k MRSP should have gone to towards that end of the budget. By using the used market, you can definitely shave that $20K down substantially and probably fall into the budget you have for investing in an upgraded preamp. Ultimately getting a much better return on your investment. As far as Diminishing Returns - I believe that is purely based upon your personal goals. If your goal is purely financial then this is the wrong hobby for you. If you enjoy music and are looking to enrich your life with the artistry associated with audiophilia the better the return. As a fellow middle class guy I would say take your time, educate yourself on the products that are out there. Stay true to your goals and remember there is no one way to achieve them. Most of all be patience especially in dealing with a used market. AND ENJOY!!! Check out: Thales Cables - best signal/speaker cables for the $$$ period. Also great Turntables. http://www.tonarm.ch/en/products/accessoires http://www.aaudioimports.com/ShowBrand.asp?hBrand=30 https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649309042-thales-precision-interconnect-cables-rca-to-rca-15-met... HB Cable Design http://www.hb-cable-design.com/1_english/ps_2.html High Fidelity Cables http://www.highfidelitycables.com/products/power/ct1u/ https://www.audiogon.com/brands/high-fidelity-cables Stage 3 Concepts - Power Chords are their strong suit. http://www.stage3concepts.com/PRODUCTS_main_page.htm Analysis Plus https://www.analysis-plus.com/ Oyaide MTB 4 or 6 R1 Power Distributor http://www.oyaide.com/ENGLISH/index.html Audience http://audience-av.com/conditioners/ar6/ https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649484119-audience-ar6t-power-conditioner-wo-power-cord/ |
My recommendation may well be ignored. I know I certainly ignored this recommendation for many years unfortunately. But after 40+ years into this hobby, or I should say lifestyle and at age 71, I finally acquiesced when my dealer brought me some used Transparent Audio Opus power cords and power conditioner from another of his customers who was upgrading to the next level of Transparent cords. (Transparent Audio has a very liberal upgrade program.) Of all of the equipment changes, upgrades, acoustic treatments, I have made over the years changing out stock power cords for high end power cords and a high end power conditioner has made the biggest difference. If I were starting over, it would be one of the first upgrades if not the first I would start with. You may not need to make the upgrades you think you do when you hear the clarity, the soundstage, the separation of instruments in the soundstage this will bring. It also reveals more easily the upgrade you might want to make later. I have a high end system but not a super high end. Dynaudio C4 speakers,2 Rel G1 subwoofers, Simaudio Evolution 860 power amp and 740 preamp, T+A 8 DAC, NAD M50.2 Digital Music Player, Exposure 13 phono stage, Clearaudio Performance DC turntable with Satisfy tonearm and Dynavector XX2 cartridge, Transparent Audio speaker cables and interconnects, GIK absorbers and diffusors for acoustic treatments, IsoAcoustics GAIA III speaker feet and GAIA I feet for the turntable will soon be added. |
You have such an amazing system, so I imagine you could easily feel underwhelmed with the difference that a component upgrade might make. You mentioned you play a mix of CDs and vinyl but you did not mention streaming. Instead of replacing a component, have you thought about adding Roon and streaming from Tidal to the DAC in your Oppo...... if you don’t already do so? Roon is a fantastic user interface that encourages you to discover more new music and play wider selections of music in each listening session, therefore it could add another dimension to your listening experience. The sound quality I achieve with my Roon Nucleus streaming Tidal via a PS Audio Directstream DAC is as good I ever achieved with CDs or vinyl. I hope you like my suggestion. Good luck with whatever you decide to do! |
Your biggest bang for the buck? It ain't no $15k component! The biggest (no soldering required) audio bangs for the buck, in no particular order: BDR Cones under everything. BDR Pucks, Those Things, Shelf under everything. Synergistic Research HFT, ECT, PHT throughout your room and system. Cable elevators to get your speaker cables and all other wires up off the floor. Anti-static spray. Pay through the nose audio prices or whatever you find at Safeway, either way just spray it. XLO Calibration and Burn-In CD: play the demagnetizing tracks at least monthly. Radio Shack bulk tape eraser. Works on things you'd never expect or be able to explain, like CD's. Felt pen, Sharpie, or paint pen edges of CDs. Scotch tape, dress interconnects. Tape measure, framing square, laser level. Only takes a tiny speaker misalignment to undo even many thousands of dollars worth of components. Radio Shack SPL meter. The cheaper analog one. Best of all, unlike the mega-buck component you've been conditioned to want so bad now yet which will in no time be found wanting and traded off just like you're doing right now, pretty much all the above tweaks will work just as well with anything and everything, forever. |
This past fall I spent trying to get the most from what i considered decent gear. Speaker placement is still o going and i find changes in one area were compounded by tweeking speaker / sitting position. Changes were 20A dedicated on 10 gage wire. Didn't her much P15 regenerator, night and day change. Like a new system . Biggest bang for the buck. 0 regret Power cables. Still working on this. Wall to regenerator big improvement, 2nd best improvement. same cable to DAC , not as much GIK treatments, not as much as I expected. Good place to start would be bass traps in the corners |
Three comments: 1. You don't say what makes you unhappy with your current set-up, but you mention that "soundstaging" could be improved. This usually means there's something wrong with the speaker-room interface. Look there first. Most speakers sound better firing into the length of the room., but there are many exceptions. They may be great speakers, but maybe not in your room? I've found that once the room/speaker interface is solved, the rest is icing on the cake. 2. The Apheta2 is ideal for the RP10. The turntable, cartridge suspension and motor were designed as a system.You won't find a better match. 3. Your power amps are not single-ended, except in the first stage. They are ultralinear, balanced. |
Before you spend any more money on gear, buy Jim Smith's book Get Better Sound. Arrange your system per his recommendations, then do acoustic treatment per his recommendations. You will be amazed how much better your system will sound. The setup and the room will contribute at least 50% to the sound you will hear. Get the basics right first. Tom |
You have a nice setup already! I would take a walk down the path of upgrading your power without ANY doubt first dedicated line/lines! You may want to look into one of the audiophile inwall cables available and receptacles. Then move on to power cords. There are many brands available, where to start? Find a dealer near you if available and ask for in home demo. If no close (60 miles) , find an on line dealer with years of experience give them a call and discuss your situation. I recommend David at Weinhart Design. A vary knowledgeable owner/ operator , who takes his business seriously! Try one or two used power cords (source first, then preamp). In the system you have I would say $1000.00 to $1300.00 each budget. Audition them for a couple of weeks and decide if you like the results, and then call David again. If you do not like them David will likely allow you to return them for better new or refund/credit towards a component which the two of you agree upon. He as helped me a lot over a several year period!! This will help you find out what your next weakest link is! Take your time an enjoy your music as you go. |
Going to a really good brick and mortar store might be even better than going to a show because you can swap equipment in and out; that way you can hear what each piece is adding, not adding, or even detracting from the whole. There is so much you can hear and learn at a good brick and mortar store because of the professional service; that in the long run is worth every penny that it costs. I really miss them. |
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Underwood Wally has the Marantz CD player on sale for $3999.00 delivered. I haven't heard it but people here say good things about it. I think you would spend more time listening to Cd's if your source player was better. I own an Esoteric X-01 and it's a superb player. I've owned the XO3SE and was very impressed with it. (It can be found when people are willing to sell it for close to $2000.00 used). Consider buying used gear. Your diminished return will be next to nothing. Good luck! Joe |
I would change /add room treatments firstThen maybe new cartridgeThen maybe new turntable and arm. I would only mess with cabling if you had an absolute 100% return policy. Then I would make sure to remove any bias by having someone switch them for you so you don’t know which is being used. If you still perceive a huge improvement with the new then keep it otherwise return. I think you have a great system, I wouldn’t bother changing your preamp the one you have is very good. And just to nitpick that is not an SET amp. |
Hi liamowen, I believe that your 6DJ8's are a weak point. I have an AR LS15 which had V-Cap teflon caps bypassing the factory caps and thought I was done. Then I read about the Schitt Audio Yggdrasil DAC. I was so impressed with it that I bought their Freya, which with the right tubes, was a big step up, but that you need to blend tubes meant that something was less than perfect as neutral tubes should make it sound best, but it doesn't. That sent me to the Don Sachs DS2 preamp. Don spend decades upgrading HK Citation tube gear and McIntosh tube gear primarily. Then he found Roy Muttram's SP14 preamp, which he has spent several years improving. His DS2 preamp is neutral, and good 6SN7 tubes blow 6922/6DJ8 tubes away. They are just a far better sounding tube. As far as cables go, Cardas cables are about the best commercial cables I have had in my system, but honestly cables made with Dualund's improved version of Western Electric's tined copper cables. You can pick them up for less than $100 for SE cables, and perhaps $50 more for balanced cables. My AQ Colorado cables suck badly, but I can't speak to their higher end cables. That's where I would start though, as for speaker cables Dualund's 12 gage cables from Partsconnexion may be a little small for the power that you are supplying, so I would look at Western Electric 10 gauge cables, but there are now counterfeit cables out there. My source is now out of the 10 gage cable, so I can't tell you who may have the real thing now, it hasn't been produced in decades. The thing is though, for $100 or less, you can find out if I have a clue or not. Beyond the better cables, and the DS2 preamp, the Schiit Yggdrasil would likely be in the mix. I became completely frustrated with vinyl long ago. I had a Sota Saphire with a Souther liner tracking arm, and a hand full of other arms, Micro Benz, and other cartridges, but it was the PITA of dealing with vinyl that finally made me give it up. I was paying $50 or more for records that had more imperfections out of the original packaging than a $3.99 LP I bought as a kid had. I had multiple cleaning machines, but even when I cleaned the release wax off a new LP it sounded like crap, it didn't matter what arm, TT, or cartridge I used. I have heard that the PS Audio DAC sounds better than the Yggdrasil, but Schiit recently upgraded the Yggdrasil, and I have not personally listened to the PS Audio DAC. Other than that I don't know enough about the rest of your gear to speak intelligently about it. I hope you find your way to a system that you are finally content with! |
"Upgrade" ... is a subjective thing ... and EVERYTHING has diminishing returns. So you are correct to be concerned about them! You should never buy ANYTHING unless you are : 1. Unhappy with your system, for a good long while. 2. Able to pin down what you want 3. Able to pin down what piece is the weak link and causing the issue. Room treatments are a great idea. As a mastering engineer the room is huge ... and speaker placement is key. 1/4" this way or that can achieve huge gains. Then it’s the gear, which is also huge. See 1,2,3. Enjoy ! |
At this level, diminishing returns are sometimes just the tip of the iceberg. Sometimes you get negative returns. My system consists of (analogue source) Well Tempered Versalex / LTD2 tonearm / DPS power supply, Dynavector 20X2L cartridge, Pass Labs Aleph Ono phono preamp; (digital source) Naim CDS3, Teddy Pardo XPS power supply; (amplification) Naim NAC-112 preamp, Naim NAP-150 power amp; (speakers) ProAc Studio 140 Mk2. Cabling is either Naim or Chord. What I will say about this system is two things: First, the CDS3 is very well-regarded, and was the top of the line before the CD 555. However, my analogue front-end blows the CDS3 out of the water, despite having about half the price-tag. I’m certain that the reason for that is the magical Pass phono pre. Stick with yours, it's going to be very tough to beat. Second, I’ve listened to systems that cost in the region of $240k, and don’t sound as good as mine at maybe 1/4 the price. Some of the really high-priced boxes produce a lot of hi-fi wiz-bang effects, but they don’t produce good music. Really the only thing that makes sense is to get a component into your system and see if it’s a synergistic match that really improves the music. Something may be higher-up the food chain, but may make your music sound too analytical to enjoy. And who knows, you might find that you get more out of room treatments than component upgrades. It’s all just stuff you have to try out. |
Possibly the most civilized, helpful and inspiring forum discussion I've read in the last few months (though admittedly I am a sucker for those click-bait posts). Appreciated. Whole-heartedly agree with the suggestions you've picked up on so far. I will only add that in terms of imaging and sound-stage width and air, one of the biggest impacts I experienced was with the purchase of high-quality digital cables (Ethernet, USB and Digital Interconnects (Luna, Luna, Echole Omnia Cables respectively)). This was however after making all the non-component upgrades already mentioned. I use only a digital front end (TotalDAC) and was surprised by the impact-per-dollar value of these last-to-be-considered cables. If ever you get serious about your digital front end, you might look into this. Also, can't speak highly enough about the pleasures of a great streaming set-up for musical exploration and discovery... its perhaps the most enjoyable feature of my system: being able to trial every piece of music that piques my attention and feel like I am hearing the full impact of the artist's intentions from the very first listen. So much surprise and excitement not knowing what music (and musical life) is around the next corner. Highly recommend as a way of extending the pleasure from your already great system from the sounds of it. Enjoy and good luck. |
Having read most of this thread, and seeing your substantial system, I would concur regarding room treatments being the best allocation of your resources. I am married to a PhD Economist (Ivy educated - I do like to brag on her 😍) and our mantra is marginal cost versus marginal gain. The amount of money needed to upgrade your electronics will never come back to you proportionally with respect to the money spent, great current system! I have a different system in most regards: but respect your choices of equipment and would suggest that quality input sources and of course more spent on Music of your choice is the path to more big smiles! Enjoy the ride and Never forget the music. |
Go spend $40 on Caig contact cleaner and enhancer, and afternoon cleaning, polishing, and enhancing EVERY connection in your system, and then $5k to my PayPal account for the advice. If you’ve never engaged in said activity, its worth the time and effort. Next, experiment with setup / room placement. That’s another $5k of advice. Take another $5k down to your local record store and go crazy. I know now we love to spend other people’s money, but reinforcement of the basics is sometimes the best advice. |
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Austinbob right on the money on old Denon is not up to snuff considering the rest of the gear this man has. Cables and new digital, a tube based dac might be nice to listen to the Mytek Manhatten is very very good, a bit on the clean and detailed side but over all a great piece. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
@laimowen, I can't emphasize enough the need for at least one if not two dedicated circuits (assuming they can be added bassed up your room location, whether you own or rent etc.) and an upgrade to a more high-end AC outlet. This suggestion will improve the sound of your music so you can really hear what your system is capable of. Those that have not done this are missing out on a very important tweak that can be inexpensive vs purchasing other types of components. Other suggestions such as placement of speakers and room accustics are also right on target. |
"speaker placement alone done properly is the biggest single improvement I ever made." Ditto, and cheapest as well. In particular, soundstage and image specificity most improved. In my experience, improving AC power delivery only helped with lower noise floor and slightly improved bass. No affect on what OP is specifically trying to improve. |
Wow! Thank you all for your help on my original post. Your responses have been very, very enlightening and helpful. I am definitely going to go with a dedicated circuit breaker and some high quality outlets. My electrician friend needs something to do this winter :) I am also going to act on the room treatment suggestions, and the laser to make sure I have maximized my alignment on the speakers. I will also do some testing with new interconnects. Finally, I will check out a "better" turntable. I am not sure what the rules are here about equipment, but if anybody has a lead on a turntable, or has one for sale, that will perform better than the Rega RP10, please PM me. Sadly for the fellow selling the CJ GAT2, it looks like that's going to have to wait. Thanks again for all of your help. If anybody has anything else, please feel free to weigh in, either now or later. I am still very much a novice at this endeavor. |
And to add I set up my larger lounge just for hifi so speakers placed purely for sound using cardas placement method they are nearly in middle of 7m long room. I then printed some pics from filming in Rwanda onto 3 GIK acoustic sound absorption boards for back wall .... also 2 free standing boards for 1 st reflection points. Would use bass traps in rear corners but doors and cupboards there so I leave them open with some drapes across to break up some rear waves. speaker placement alone done properly is the biggest single improvement I ever made. |
Liamowen, you asked about where to start with room treatments. As previously mentioned in this thread, GIK Acoustics in Atlanta would be a good source for both advice and product in my experience. Their product line is a good compromise between function, aesthetic refinement, and cost. While there are product lines that have a more polished look to the finished install, they cost considerably more. I have ordered four times from GIK now. With each addition of more room treatments, the room I listen in has been further removed from my listening experience and the sound of the recording venue has taken on a greater proportion of what I hear. It's much better for you to communicate with GIK directly as far as advice for where to start. Every room is different and what worked for one person might not be the best place to start in your case. |
Best bang for your buck is to paste all your connections with Perfect Path Total Contact enhancer ($299) or much less if you go in with a few buddies. Then get a Perfect Path Omega E-mat ($599) and put it in your circuit breaker box. Get 5 or 10 E-cards from Perfect Path ($299 for 5) and put one each under each piece of equipment. If you get 10 E-cards, tape one to the back of your top highest positioned driver and do the same with the lowest positioned driver in each speaker. If you have a large system, the PPTC may take awhile to do. I do and it took me about 4-5 hours--I had 216 individual pins to paste counting RCA pins, tube pins, spades, bananas, fuses ends, prongs of your power plugs and IECs. If you follow the directions and do at least what I said, in a day your system will be better sounding. The cool thing is, after you’ve done this there will be periodic jumps in performance especially at 4 weeks and 8 weeks. Adding the mat will bring very noticeable improvements to all things hooked up to the circuit panel including TVs, computers, and of course, your sound system. The cards have a quicker time to show improvement and will also make a big difference. All areas of your tunes will be improved. Perfect Path will be coming out with THE GATE that you will wire into the circuit board at 2 spots, much like a wires from your outlets. The Gate just sits on the bottom of the circuit box. It is said by the maker to being up to 100 times more powerful and effective than one mat. Of course, the price is much higher I believe. Tim Mrock of PP said it will be about $5000. He says it will be the single largest leap in performance by far that any of us have ever experienced. Pretty darn exciting. There is a long thread about PP products in the Forum. Spend your money on upgrades if you must. If you don’t experience the PP products, it is definitely your loss. I’m about to do the second and third stages I mentioned. One could buy and use more mats. They are more powerful than the cards. The cards can slip into smaller places, however. Bob |
Your amp and preamp are very good products. Your front end (cd player and turntable and cartridge) are significantly holding back your system. Even if you spend 15k, the low end or your budget, you can purchase a close to state of the art cd player (or transport and DAC) and turntable. You can also try different brands of cables from The Cable Co. But I would do that after investing in a better front end. I can’t see spending more on an interconnect than the gear it is connecting. Furthermore, used cabling is a great deal. You can usually pay 45 percent of retail without worrying about damage from abuse to the item. After you get a new front end, sell your cables, buy better used cables and you will have maximized your investment overall. |
