nonoise,
Thank you for dropping in to supply a judgemental and disparaging description of the people in this thread. That always contributes to the tone of a forum. It's nice to get the view from "on high."
You have quite an imagination in what you manage to "see" in this thread.
In any case: You can rest easy knowing you have now been seen. ;-)
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delkal
So it appears there is no way to set up a "scientific" test test that will make everyone happy audiophiles will be debating this for the rest of time............. >>>>By Jove, I think he’s got it! 🤗 |
@mahgister, it wasn't my intention to disparage you as you are one of the most sane and much needed voices around here. It's just the way things were going, which was nowhere in particular, like any other thread that made the mistake of taking on cables.
@prof, please, don't ever think of me as someone from "on high". I've never shunned the light. Unlike the overwhelming majority on this site who are subjectivists and wish to remain anonymous so as to not incur the wrath of the objectivists, I don't mind it: I just sometimes grow weary from it.
There's much to learn from the more knowledgeable and less dogmatic here who have the patience to proffer advice without exacting subservience. To each their own, live and let live, etc.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I suspect nonoise is mistaking courteousness with sanity. By his own admission mahgister is not a towering technical genius. He’s a nice guy, though. 🤗 |
Hmmm..... - Geoff’s “best friend” designed the prototype of the robot HAL 9000
- Geoff only listens to his music through earphones and a “Walkman”
- Geoff seems to be always near his computer
- Geoff has insider information about spaceship stuff
- Geoff never makes a mistake
- Geoff likes to be “in command”
I think I have it....Geoff is HAL 9000! Enjoy your algorithmic virtual turkey Geoff! 🦃🦃🦃 |
geoffkait18,554 posts11-27-2019 11:58amI suspect nonoise is mistaking courteousness with sanity. By his own admission mahgister is not a towering technical genius. He’s a nice guy, though. 🤗 I am not completely objectively sane, and I agree with Geoffkait also that I am not a "towering technical genius" and not even " a technical genius" and alas " not a genius"... Only a creative normal guy who love books... But if I can made a remark, in society, and this thread is a society, courteousness is social sanity, in an asylum, if all the fools were polite, the doctors would be in pain to make a bad diagnostic...I can say that humor and comedy is akin to courteousness...Not sufficient tough but a very promising societal trait... Thanks Geoffkait for saying that I am a nice guy, that will make my day... |
If being "on high" is making posts that hopefully teach the vast number of people that read forums, but don’t post, that the path to audio nirvana is not standing on your tiptoes, with your head exactly in line with mid-point of the tweeter and midrange, while holding your breath, but only on Tuesdays, and only after you have paid $60/minute for telephone audiophilia, and certainly not before you have consulted with the guy on the corner, the one with the trench-coat, who you must allow to ply you with his wares, and don’t worry, his "trust-me" is worth more than any PhD, and absolutely not before personally going on expedition in preferably an Amazonian rainforest for raw materials to build at least 8 bisymetrical structures,
..... but ..... just like always, it predominantly comes down to good speakers that you like, learning how to and actually treating your room, buying an amplifier that your speakers and you are happy with, and then accessorizing with and appropriate quality source and pre-amp, and if your source is vinyl, prepare to allocate more into that. Anything on top of that is gravy.
It doesn’t matter what wheels and tires, or spark-plug wires, or ECU upgrade you do, that 1979 Chevette it still a Chevette. |
That’s very good Mitch. I can’t reveal the true nature of “the mission” for reasons that will become obvious later. 🚨
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atdavid..... but ..... just like always, it predominantly comes down to good speakers that you like, learning how to and actually treating your room, buying an amplifier that your speakers and you are happy with, and then accessorizing with and appropriate quality source and pre-amp, and if your source is vinyl, prepare to allocate more into that. Anything on top of that is gravy. I do that exactly...But I did not fall in love with my audio system, even if each link in my audio system is good, so good and carefully choosen, that the solution that appears to me was not upgrading and buying better gear ... It was instructing myself about some basic facts, and experimenting in some alternative way...I fall in love after creating my stones grid and homemade linked Schumann generators, and making my homemade Helmholtz resonators, and my homemade low cost "singing resonators"... And last but not least treating homemade my central electrical grid with stones... I am now in love with my audio system... Sometimes it takes more than good links in the audio system, even more than just a conventional room treatment, I think that some tweaks act for the good...It is not snake oil by the way, I make all that myself, without measuring anything, and by my ordinary hearing declining ears...My best to you... |
nonoise,
Ok, I can see your point of view in your follow-up post. Thanks.
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mahgister,
It's often hard to tell on the internet so I have to ask: Was your last post a joke, or do you really make/use the tweaks you described?
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2,265 posts11-27-2019 12:46pm
mahgister,
It’s often hard to tell on the internet so I have to ask: Was your last post a joke, or do you really make/use the tweaks you described?
Prof I understand perfectly well your question...No need to apologize, you are very tactful and polite...If I was in your shoes and seeing my system and reading my description, I will think the same thing that you think of...
But yes this system is born with my desire for a true HI_FI system, but without money, it is difficult to bought that... I create it myself for peanuts with used components, and mostly with tweaks of my own design, inspired by many audiophile company that sells tweaks at too much high cost for me... Then I create, sometimes originally, by listening experiment,for example my own stones cabled grid in my audio room...Nobody gives me this idea but that works for my ears... I create also my singing resonators that works in my small audio room , astoundingly...This is the story in one word... My best to you Prof...
By the way I post images of my system without fearing ridicule,because my point is with almost no money, with some basic understanding, and listening experiments, and very low cost modifications of the room, house, and electrical grid, and components, we all can gain HI-FI at low cost... HI-fi is simply for me listening music with smiles without being discouraged by the 2-d low resolution.non holographic imaging, and unnatural rendering of timbre that I was afflicted with my system before my homemade modifications...My system is not the best in the world, but it is now so good for me that I do not resent anymore not being able to afford anything more now...Invention even in a modest way is the mother of joy...
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Be careful, we don’t want to wise up these guys too much. It can serve no good porpoise. 🐬 Wasn’t it WC Fields who said never smarten up a chump? I only mean that in a nice way.
Joke. Two guys are sitting next to each other on the airplane. One guy is looking out the window and says, hey, those people down there look like ants! The second guy says, they are ants. We haven’t left the ground yet. |
By the way cables, and power cord are last in my list of priorities....They are system dependant, and before your audio room are completed by some treatment, your house electrical grid cleaner, your audio system under vibrations controls and more, it is waste of money to buy high cost one...At last perhaps it is an idea to try some... And if your system is sufficiently refined and even with ordinary ears you will hears the difference... It is my own experience....For sure what is big money for one is peanuts for another tough and choice of cables are not only soundwise dependant but money dependant...
I apologize for my 2 cents remarks...
I understand for sure that Blumartini is there with a complete hi-fi system already and it is interesting to know the experience of others I thanks him for the thread… My best to all,,, |
mahgister
Ok, thanks for clarifying that for me. I have no desire to ridicule your system. No one needs to turn in to a scientist in this hobby. I certainly can't "objectively verify" the performance of everything in my system, and I'm fine with that. I'm glad you are having fun!
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Thanks Prof...I wish you the best and yes I enjoy music now, less noise to annoy me... |
"Question? In your humble opinion, what is the best Power Cord and what do you like about them from prices that range:"
$50-$100 / None
$200-300 / Oyaide (DIY)
$400-500 / Cerious
$600-$1000 / Acoustic Revive
>$1000 / Jena Labs
Obviously I haven't tries all cables available but these are the ones I've left in my system for any given time due to sound quality. It goes without saying that this is only my opinion. Yours will vary.
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@ boxer12Can you tell us what you had them counted to? Thanks for sharing your thoughts:) Cheers |
" boxer12Can you tell us what you had them counted to?"
$200-300 / Oyaide (DIY) These were connected to everything (I have several). Some are still in place (to the amps & TT power supply) $400-500 / Cerious Connected from wall to exactpower transformer (everything but the power amps go through this dedicated transformer) $600-$1000 / Acoustic Revive Connected to the power supply for the phono preamp & dac. Also connected to the Acoustic Revive "Power strip" (from the transformer) >$1000 / Jena Labs Connected to the preamp
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I own a brand new pass lab XP 27 and I also purchase some Cardas cables to hook up to my amplifier which is also passed lab when I first started listening to it it sounded so horrible that I could not take no matter how much I adjusted the dials to get to the right cartridge response my feelings were that things just had to break in but after a month and it was still almost terrible to listen to I got heartsick spending all that money and afraid to play my turntable it wasn't until a friend suggested that I put a high-quality power cord on my XP 27 to solve the problem so I bought a Kimber kable PK 14% right off the bat I heard the best sound the come out of my stereo and a long time so power cables definitely make a difference
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Dutchydog. Tip: take a breath now and then when posting and place a period at the end of each sentence. That will make your posts make more sense and easier to understand. Thanks. |
Isn't it always....try them all.....one will be just right. I made my own...Acrolink cable with top of the line Furutech connections. Very pleased.
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I know a guy (who made my living room speakers) who has spent years perfecting his brand of power cord. Knowing, if superficially, how much time and effort he has put in the project and how many trial and error he has gone through, I can’t say he is overcharging. It is not just the cost of the material plus some labor cost. |
I know a guy (who made my living room speakers) who has spent years perfecting his brand of power cord.
I am glad the power cord has no feeling :-) |
There’s not much close to the confiscatory pricing of lengths of wire in this hobby except for perhaps streamers and server’s , basically computer parts in an attractive looking box.
I love these threads and if I were in the audiophile business selling lengths of proprietary designed wire would be my first choice and my 2nd would be streamers and servers at eye popping esoteric prices of course...
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The guy I mentioned earlier about, for instance, uses 31 different small conductors in his brand of interconnect cables, and checks the direction of each. To come up with the 31 combo in the first place is a lot of work, then check the direction of each, most of which are not specified by the manufacturers? If one of 31 is in the wrong direction, it messes with the sound quality. He demonstrated it to me and I agreed with him. So it is not that simple, like different length, etc. And fyi, the length of power cord especially changes the sound. |
@in_shore
"There’s not much close to the confiscatory pricing of lengths of wire in this hobby except for perhaps streamers and server’s , basically computer parts in an attractive looking box.
I love these threads and if I were in the audiophile business selling lengths of proprietary designed wire would be my first choice and my 2nd would be streamers and servers at eye popping esoteric prices of course..."
Yeah, that would be the easy way to do it - if we had no scruples of course.
Once upon a time Noel Lee (Monster Cables) transformed himself into an almost overnight millionaire with little more than the power of suggestion - ie thicker = better.
Naturally enough many since have sought to follow in his footsteps.
However since those days of poor DIN plugs, crudely twisted wire extensions, and the cheapest possible bell wire are over, a different approach must be found.
In this era of readily available high purity oxygen-free copper, suggestion just won’t hack it anymore. Audiophiles may be gullible but not that gullible.
And so a better weapon must be found, and it has been.
Paranoia.
In particular the widespread attempt to feed concerns over electromagnetic / radio interference (4G/5G, smartphones etc) has now become the weapon of choice to induce audiophile paranoia.
As advertisers have long known, humans are always vulnerable to paranoia.
More importantly they will pay good money to be relieved of it.
The issue of whether the most expensive cables (power, loudspeaker or interconnect, take your pick) that money can buy today actually sound any better than those from the mid-1970s is not something any cable vendor would dare to claim.
They simply dare not propagate such falsehood.
For obvious reasons.
@in_shore, on second thoughts, if you want to write the blurb I'll find a supplier or vice versa...
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I am sure some manufacturers are crooks, and surely some audiophiles are gullible and paranoid. I, for one, hear most of the differences and while acknowledging some superior products, I can’t afford, to be more exact do not want to spend that much money on, many of them. I am content with what I have because I have taken pain to put together my system within the budget I feel comfortable with and it is of one good synergy. I can’t talk about the other makers since I don’t know them firsthand, however I wouldn’t consider my speaker builder unethical just because his cables are expensive. On the contrary, I appreciate his passion in his hobby/business. And I won’t waste my time to persuade anyone who believe differently. There are always different opinions on any subject and even name-calling. So be it. |
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boxer123,472 posts11-28-2019 6:56am"Question? In your humble opinion, what is the best Power Cord and what do you like about them from prices that range:"
$50-$100 / None
$200-300 / Oyaide (DIY)
$400-500 / Cerious
$600-$1000 / Acoustic Revive
>$1000 / Jena Labs
Obviously I haven't tries all cables available but these are the ones I've left in my system for any given time due to sound quality. It goes without saying that this is only my opinion. Yours will vary. "
--------------------------- Not true. The best powercord is the one that does less harm to the electric power/signal. No conductor can improve anything, even if they`re priced out of this world. The only way to avoid any kind of detoriation is to use single solid core conductors, on primary site as well as on the secondary site.(=speakercables) 12awg is a minimum on the primary site (a poweramp might need moore) while 9awg is a minimum to avoid dynamic loss on the secondary site. (yep, nothing less) I know this is not what your local stereo-priest tells but it is the thruth. |
I wonder whether only audiophiles are susceptible to Paranoid Cableitus?
Would it be also possible to sell $1000+ RJ11/ethernet/router power cables too?
Probably not as virtually everyone already understands that the actual broadband supply (and to a lesser extent) the kilometres of cabling to your home are far far more important than whatever’s cabling the last metre or so.
What’s that I can hear being said?
Something about a sow’s ear and a silk purse?
Drat, and double drat!
Foiled again!
Oh well, it’s back to the power of suggestion again.
I wonder what a Tom Cruise or Taylor Swift cable endorsement would cost....?
Outside budget you say? Then affordable non committal fancy marketing will have to do.
Oh how I long for the days when all it took was a semi undressed beauty to sell your stuff...
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unfairlane / Thanks for your opinion
cd318 / No "Paranoid Cableitus" here. Great sound reproduction though |
@unfairlane
Just curious, which single wire, solid core, 9 awg cable/wire do you use for speaker cables?
On the power side of things, you basically described Romex, which some well-regarded folks actually believe would make a good power cord. |
@douglas_schroeder , "Got bias?"
If you meant me, then the answer is a definite yes! I do have a strong bias against fraudulent cable insinuations. (Let’s not call them claims - no manufacturer/seller would dare).
The same way I presume that you have a strong bias for big dealer/adviser profits.
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cd318, no, I didn't aim the comment at you, it just happened to follow yours. It was meant as commentary on the entire thread.
In response, one time as I am trying to learn not to get entangled in extended arguments/debates in regard to cabling - I find them fairly unproductive, and you may agree on that point! :) Anyway, in response, I think you would be able to find several reputable cable manufacturers who make claims about their cables' performance, and some that show it with graphs, measurements, etc. Whether you choose to believe those charts/measurments is another question. I have found cause over the years to question some of those graphs; one company in particular I feel used soft data to impress those who didn't look too closely. So, there is some truth to your position. However, I think it is reaching to condemn all cable makers as nefarious.
I think your skepticism bias is showing again, as I have no connection to dealer and advertiser profits. I have zero involvement with the business side of reviewing. That is by choice, as I do not have a taste for the politics of audiophilia - I want nothing to do with it. I have an ideal situation wherein I review and have contact with dealers, manufacturers, other reviewers, and the publisher purely, solely for the purposes of my writing. I blissfully have nothing to do with the publication aside from the words I submit. I have never had any involvement in advertising in any respect. I thank God that I do not have to deal with any of that! It might be enough to drive me from reviewing, and I mean that literally.
If you wish to damn me for having an accommodation when I do purchase a reviewed item, then so be it. I have said previously that as I am unpaid, and basically review for the joy and love of writing as well as building systems (Which is why I write approx. 4-5 times as many reviews as typical reviewers), because my time investment (an average of 30 hours per review considering communication, handling of logistics, setting up systems, and the writing process) would make for a paltry hourly wage. The discount I get in reviewing does not make up for the inordinate time I have spent writing reviews. That is not typical, so perhaps your skepticism of me and painting me with a broad brush with conceptions of what I am like as a reviewer is a bit off the mark.
There are enough shenanigans by some, and loopholes in reviewing that I get your displeasure with it. I used to be the same before becoming a reviewer; I trusted none of them. No one would/could change my opinion. It's funny how transitioning to a different role (from audiophile hobbyist to reviewer) changes one's perspective. Now I am seen as one of "them", the distrusted, the seemingly corrupt, those in bed with the dealers and manufacturers. No, my friend, it's not true. The reality is far different than you think.
I have not shared this as a rant, or as a plea for pity (Because I'm so hard done by as a reviewer, right? - LOL), because truth be known, I do not care terribly whether you change your opinion. But, the audiophile public once in a while needs to see that there are good people trying to serve them (And, of course, serving themselves by involvement with the gear; that's obvious) and are not duplicitous. :) |
mitch22,087 posts12-09-2019 4:51pm@unfairlane
Just curious, which single wire, solid core, 9 awg cable/wire do you use for speaker cables?
On the power side of things, you basically described Romex, which some well-regarded folks actually believe would make a good power cord..
I`ve spendt years developing a 4-way speaker system and it has never been singlewired but if I had to use just one set of wires I would still use our norwegian Nexan-made pfsp standard romex-equivalent. 9awg is not enough though to feed a grown woofer, give it 7awg* and your amp will show it`s full potential, assuming it`s feed through solid core pc`s, no filters. Back in those days I came to discover quite a few things, like how to make 100% inaudible/lossless IC`s, speakercables, spdif coax & powercords. Took me some years and endless testing to comprehend what I`ve stumbeled over. Sometimes the truth is so simple it`s taken for a joke.. *
https://www.hifisound.de/de/Lautsprecher-Selbstbau/Frequenzweichen-Bauteile/Eisenkern/Mundorf-Null-OHM-Spule-N-390.html
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I came to discover quite a few things, like how to make 100% inaudible/lossless IC`s, speakercables, spdif coax & powercord
If its inaudible, wouldn't that be a 100% loss? |
@douglas_schroeder , "But, the audiophile public once in a while needs to see that there are good people trying to serve them (And, of course, serving themselves by involvement with the gear; that's obvious) and are not duplicitous. :)"
Agreed. There are many good people who are genuinely trying to help the audiophile public.
The trouble is that there also seems to be no shortage of those who aren't.
Anyway, thanks for your considered reply and no hard feelings - best of luck with your writing. It's been a few years since I last checked out dagogo.com but I do still remember enjoying reading Jack Roberts' Beatnik Column. |
cd318, this was a nice exchange of opinion and thought, and I also appreciate your comments.
For your enjoyment, Jack is still doing his Audio Beatnik thing on his own now. If you do a search for Audio Beatnik you will find him.
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The power cord is the major artery for the power supply, that`s why the last piece of cable is so crucial.
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turnbowm72 posts11-14-2019 8:11pm"I have investigated cables for many years and power cable improvement seems differ with the component to which they are attached.
- components with "less-capable" power supplies tend to exhibit more of an improvement
- compared to the same cable when used on amps with massive power supplies, which tend to exhibit less of an improvement"
Williewonka,
That ihas been my experience as well. I have a Bryston Int. Amp that doesn't seem to care what PC I use to feed it with. Other Bryston Amp owners have voiced the same experience. Robustness in power supply design is an important factor.
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Some but not too much thruth in this. The problem here as with other hifi-cables is that they mostly are junk. Mybe a bit better than a standard cable but not much. If you want to wake up your Bryston, give it a minimum 12awg solid core pc |
Compared to the transformer itself, diode, etc. it has not much effect inline electrically. Other issues at hand perhaps, but actual conduction of electricity not so much. Many high end power cords are effectively 12awg or less.
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@unfairlane If you want to wake up your Bryston, give it a minimum 12awg solid core pc Are we back to the gauge being the primary factor affecting power cable performance on amplifiers? I have a hard time getting away from wire gauge, noise-cancelling geometry, shielding, and adequate plugs/iec being the most important aspects affecting PC performance. All the other stuff espoused by the manufacturers of expensive cables seems relatively benign in comparison. |
Well the gauge is crucial all the way, and not only the gauge, it must be solid conductors to get a clean dynamic signal. A problem or challenge here is the fact that allmost no audio-designers are aware of this and they seems to design the layouts based on max continous power while they should multiply with 10 (yeah!) not to risk limiting dynamic output.
Good plugs are off course what everything relies on, but the male plug at the end of a pc is not where I would put my money.The female walloutlet is the one that might makes the difference.
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A large gauge power cord does not change what's in the wall between the panel and your outlet, so if not upgraded large grade on line/neutral does not do a lot.
I think your arguments for solid core are just conjecture. I don't think there is any good engineering or listening to back that up. |
The pc is the powersupplys main arteia, it`s what it "sees" into and sucks it`s power from. Off course you`ll need a adequate supply from your main box but I assume every serious audiophile is past that level
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They both do exactly the same thing on the same circuit. I don't think you have thought this through. Of course they have the same importance.
Good plugs are off course what everything relies on, but the male plug at the end of a pc is not where I would put my money.The female walloutlet is the one that might makes the difference.
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I have rarely seen audiophiles with anything better than 12 awg Romex dedicated line or not. |
