The Truth About Power Cords and there "Real" Price to Performance

About all I can say is beliefs can oft be very strong and hard to change.

anatomist ?

Ok so let me kick this off since we are off to a interesting start!

This is less than a 2-minute read, and I promise you it's worth it.

 

A power cord has two jobs – get electrical current from your outlet to your gear (using conductors and plugs), and keep the signal as clean as possible (using shielding). You could distill it further and simply say, despite what some companies may tell you in their marketing, a power cord conducts electricity. And when it comes to conducting electricity, there are two simple and steadfast rules:

 

1. Larger Gauge = Lower Voltage Drop and Resistance

(more/better current flow – the garden hose vs. fire hose analogy)

&

2. More Insulation/Shielding = Less Interference

(a cleaner signal)

 I believe that a well designed cable simply maintains more of the original signal, allowing the sound of your gear to come through better. Now the real question is what company do you believe really gives the best value to performance?

I believe in Math and Science and what I hear not marketing!

Anybody out there able to give me some feed back on the below listed cables price to performance?

Odin 2 Power Cords 1.25 Meters 16,999.99
Shunyata Research Sigma NR 1.75 Meter $3000.00
WireWorld Platinum Electra 7 1.5 Meter $2,350.00
Snake River Audio Signature Cottonmouth 1.0 Meter $1,875.00
NRG Custom Cables The 5 Power Cord 1.5 Meter $300.00

@blumartini  Can't hep you with the above question, but an
A’phile friend of mine brought over some of the inexpensive Ching Cheng pc’s last night. We listened to them against a number of other pc’s --from Zen Wave, Black Cat, Synergistic, Cardas, Nordost and Audience. Interestingly...the Ching Chengs were basically junk in my system. Resolution dropped like a stone, frequency extension was non-existent, imaging diffuse, plus it was quite obvious that these inexpensive cables were no different than the stock ones supplied by all manufacturers’ to at least give you the ability to hook up power!
My friend left the Ching Chengs with me...to throw into the bin.
Even the entry level Cardas cables had it all over them..Moral of the story, at least in this case, is you get what you pay for.

Hey dayveyf1,

Please remind me what system you used the cords with?

Hey, $16,000 is a drop in the bucket compared to the Von Schweikert Ultra Speaker internal wiring upgrade that sells for as much as $35,000. Are you saying $4,000 for a power cord is where you draw the line. $1000? $100?

I like the Wire World Electra 7 on my Dac.It does filter noise and replaced a Jvc digital cable.I don't care for them elsewhere in the system.

@blumartini   My system can be seen here: https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/4100

Hi There geoffkait,

Don’t know that anyone said that there was a line. Why stop at $35000.00? I had the opportunity to audition a $75,000.00 TROY ELITE NG ground conditioning unit. 

https://tripointaudio.us/tripoint-products

Guess the real question is does the dollar amount spent = "Price for Performance" and why you think it does in your system?

Oh, I don’t know, I think this high cost for certain audiophile products is a little bit irrelevant. There are $650,000 speakers, $16,000 cartridges, $120,000 turntables. So what? It doesn’t necessarily advance the science OR the performance to go all out on money. And who can do it? 1/2 of 1%?  As I said somewhere earlier even One Million Dollar systems can oft go awry. I would say it’s hard to prove the value of things, generally, but especially when the cost is astronomical. Money can’t buy me love. 

blumartini-

Sorry man your thread has been hijacked. In the museum of What is wrong with Audiophiles geoffkait has a whole wing, three basement levels, and a Raider's of the Lost Ark warehouse. Like a bad accident, best just look the other way.

Everyone has your same ideas about power cords, and cables in general, as being mere conductors of electricity. As you now know from listening your ears are telling you there has to be a lot more to it than that.

Which I am not about to tell you what that is. Because unlike everyone else I know that I don't know. Truth is no one knows. That's why there's so many different ones. That's why they all sound so different. If it was all just transmitting electricity they'd all have been commoditized long ago, and they'd all be cheap as dirt. Like the wall outlets at Home Depot.

So you're excited because you just discovered this which is crazy but true for a lot of audiophiles. What makes it crazy is this is something that has been known for upwards of 30 years, and probably more like 50. Fifty if you go back to J Gordon Holt who founded Stereophile and the whole "the ears are the arbiters of sound" movement, 30 if you go back to Ted Denney who founded Synergistic Research and came out with the first really commercially successful Master Coupler power cord.

Now there's been a zillion power cords before and since, but the reason I say the Master Coupler was the first really commercially successful power cord is both because it came out early in the 1990's AND is still widely considered a quality power cord that retains its value in the used market even to this day. The Master Coupler is in effect the Gold Standard of power cords and at about $150-300 is hard to beat especially for someone with upgrades in mind. As the hijackers have pointed out you can very easily spend a whole lot more. What I am saying is it is nowhere near as easy to do a whole lot better.

Or as someone else said last time I recommended the Master Coupler, "A thousand dollar cable for $250. What's not to like?"

Now understand I am not putting it out there as the best or even the only. I am putting it out there as a benchmark or standard. Because you asked about value. Which value is what I am all about. So yes of course you can do better. But if you want to do better AND keep the budget reasonable then you need a solid standard of value. And this is it.

Hi millercarbon,

Thanks for jumping right into the meat of the matter and shedding some light on the subject! To clarify, this is not new to me but I like many others out there are not like geoffkait or I hope not at least in this regard lol. The purpose of the thread is more for awareness vs marketing for those not wanting 3 basement levels of bad accidents. Sorry man but that was hilarious!!!

I am sure that most people reading this thread will want to hear more about The Master Coupler power cable. Can you share its characteristics from your experiences with us,

Thanks!

at what point does the cost of a power cord outweigh the cost of building your own power generation facility, $75k for a power cord ? I could build my own dedicated power generation system for that kind of money. 

I hereby recuse myself from this conversation as I do not use power cords any more. I also apologize for bringing down the average cost for power cords. And good luck to everybody. 🤗

Hi glennewdick, it's not a 75k power cord it is a ground unit.

Look it up!

https://tripointaudio.us/tripoint-products

I am sure that most people reading this thread will want to hear more about The Master Coupler power cable. Can you share its characteristics from your experiences with us,

Thanks!

 
Well, the Master Coupler is Synergistic Research. What that means, it shares the classic SR sonic signature- big, bold, detailed, dynamic, and above all else beautifully balanced. There's simply more there there. That's what turned me onto SR way back in the 90's, and why I continue to prefer them to this day. They just present everything beautifully, never anything hyped or out of balance. They make sacrifices and trade offs of course and these get smaller and smaller as you move up the line in price and time, with the newest/best being almost unbelievably close to perfect. Their newer/ better cables are definitely worth the money. But cables are kind of like wine. You can't really expect the cheap stuff to taste really good. At some level you should just be happy it doesn't have anything really awful going on. The Master Coupler is like that. You won't be blown away by how good it is- except in comparison with everything else that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

at what point does the cost of a power cord outweigh the cost of building your own power generation facility, $75k for a power cord ? I could build my own dedicated power generation system for that kind of money.

This is one of those comments that sounds all smart-assey, until you stop and think about it and realize hey a battery is a dedicated power generation system and people really do that and so its a serious subject after all.

Its also a pretty easy one to answer. Compare even a few power cords with any kind of off-line power and its pretty easy to figure out the even an inexpensive Master Coupler can give you way more. Micro-hydro using a bank of batteries and the venerable Fisher-Paykel washer turned into a generator to keep things nice and economical might run you as little as $1500 to maybe $3k. Assuming you have a stream nearby to keep the plumbing and wire costs low. (Yeah, I've looked into it. You really need to start paying me more for this.) But again, however the power is generated it ultimately winds up coming from a battery and battery power just ain't all that compared to a really good power cord.

Which since a really good power cord begins with the Master Coupler at under $300, is a pretty low price point.

millercarbon, That was nicley done.! Thank you for sharing that on this thread. I think for all of those out ther who have dumped good money into bad or not so great power cords and cables  by purchasing based on a review someone read or marketing hype.

Bravo

Miller and glennewdick you have me wondering if anyone has ever used a gas generator to power their system.Just curious...

I learned something by experience recently that may add to the conversation--that the price-performance ratio in part depends on what you are connecting the power cord to. I recently had the opportunity to try several different power cords at different price points in my system. I used the power cords  between:

The wall and my Ayre L-5xe power conditioner (to which was connected my preamp (Herron VTSP-3A R03), phono stage (Herron VTPH-2A), turntable motor and cd/sacd player (Esoteric K-03xs); AND

The wall and my power amp (LTA Ultralinear)

I discovered that each power cord sounded very different going into the Ayre L-5xe but totally the same going into the LTA. So I reached out to Mark Schneider at LTA to report what I found. He told me that David Berning, who designs the LTA gear, is a power supply specialist above all else and, because of the integrity and quality of the power supply in my LTA amplifier the sonic differences between power cord were negligible. In fact, the stock power cord from LTA sounded just as good as a $1500 cable I compared it to. So, I purchased one of the better performing (and more expensive) cords for my Ayre and another inexpensive cord for the LTA, saving myself several hundred dollars in the process. 

So, what I learned from this experience is that the price-performance ratio depends on more than the cable alone--that the design of what you are plugging into (and probably the quality of the power coming out of your outlet) can alter the performance considerably, skewing the ratio depending on the application.

Jtfc,
Interesting you bring this up! I have someone I know that liv9in Hawaii and that's how they get their power. He opted for a PS Audio Power Regenerater. I am waiting to hear back from him to better answer how its going for him

Nelson Pass recommends the stock power cord that ships with his amps. Plain, simple, stock power cord.

I won’t argue with him.

Power cords matter, but they’re no magic potion. Best way to convince yourself of their worth isn’t to try out a superexpensive one, it’s to try out a really cheap and shoddy one. The falloff in SQ between it and the decently good cord you’re used to will show you  they make a difference. 

Everything you try, components, cables, room treatments, is going to be system or room dependent. Money doesn’t buy top performance. Top performance comes mainly from correct speaker placement and competent sound engineering. Cables can advance things a little, the  same way anything else can, but if you don’t have a lot of money to spend, you’re not missing much from pasing on Odins.

I am always wondering what my system’s’ weak link is. How can one know? That question is worth a thread in itself. If the weak link is your power cords, you’ll think that the mid priced cord you just tried, and that helped a lot, is wildly underpriced. If it isn’t your power cords, you’ll tell yourself the Odin you just tried out is wildly overpriced"

I use unshielded cables from a Lithuanian company (my entire loom). Mid priced. I am delighted with them, though they need some nursing along (de-mag them every second day, and never touch them or move them once you installed them). 

Last point — no point chasing high end, high cost power cord or a power conditioner unless you’ve already spent a couple of hundred dollars on a hospital grade receptacle (Wattgate or Furutech). You would be throwing your money away. Quality of the wall outlet matters huge.

Dodgealum is correct in saying that the entire price point is system dependent. The Denon reciever I have that was born in the early 90's would probably sound pretty bad with (in this case) $1500 interconnects because those cables would be unforgiving in their presentation & would point out every inferiority in my present system. So one can assume the same to be true with power cords, etc. So in my case, my $400 reciever, my $400 equalizer, my $600 CD player are connected by $250 interconnects through $400 speakers to give my ears exactly what they want to hear. I forgot, all powered by a $100 power conditioner 

@blumartini  please update about the friend in Hawaii and his generator.I'm really curious if that would provide clean power.

Power cables are relative to the power gulp required.  

"...a $75,000.00 TROY ELITE NG ground conditioning unit."

There must be a town of Troy somewhere trying to find $75000 in the next year's budget to improve stability of electrical grid.

@millercarbon -- thanks, as usual, for your clear and useful advice; just wish I had read it before buying AZ Tsunami's!

Well, since the first 25 - 100' or more of cable in your house is most like 12 or 14 gauge solid core romex, shouldn't we just keep it all the same and use more of that?  Nice conductivity, parallel conductors separated by a bare ground wire, simple!

blainer55,
I've tried to logically make sense of why a power cord would make a difference and agree with you that they shouldn't. The thing is, in my system they do. I've never gone full hog on them but have tried, oyaide, synergistic, acoustic revive, cerious, pangea, cardas, & tributaries (probably forgetting a couple here). They all sound different. From a value standpoint, cerious & synergistic are great. They are very well rounded and clear throughout. Acoustic Revive are the best I've heard (great synergy in my system) to this point. Very transparent but also more expensive. 

I think there is more practical value in dodgealum's post than most other posts in this thread. What you are plugging into is going to make a much bigger difference than anything w.r.t. equipment interactions. Some observations:

• Good shielding is never going to hurt a power cord.
• A good ground between equipment is almost never going to hurt.
• You can make a better ground connection between your equipment with $100 of braided copper strapping and $5.00 of serrated washers than $10,000 of cables.
• A lower resistance AC (line/neutral) connection will result in More EMI
• A lower resistance AC (L/N) connection will likely result in More high frequency noise generated on the DC rails of the equipment
  
• A lower resistance AC (L/N) connection will likely result in less low frequency ripple on the power rails of a power amplifier.
  
• The power supply rails of a low power piece of equipment will probably have less total noise on them with a more resistive AC (L/N) connection.
• A low resistance AC connection (L/N) between your power amplifier and your other equipment will allow the power amplifier to dirty the AC more on your other equipment, than a high resistance between the two (but you want the ground to be low resistance).
• A low resistance (heavier gauge) wire from your main breaker panel to your equipment/power amplifier will reduce the amount of lower frequency AC line noise your power amplifier will generate (where your equipment is) but will increase the high frequency noise.
• There is no guarantee that an engineer/designer at a boutique audio company is highly competent at power supply design or even knows/understands all the points made above.
• If you are wondering where the bottleneck is in your system, it is highly likely that it is your speakers or the room, and maybe your source.

dodgealum1,030 posts11-13-2019 5:09pm

So, what I learned from this experience is that the price-performance ratio depends on more than the cable alone--that the design of what you are plugging into (and probably the quality of the power coming out of your outlet) can alter the performance considerably, skewing the ratio depending on the application.

Super-expensive power cords with fancy schmancy dressing. LoL!

Forgive me, no offense. Each to his/her own.

I would rather spend that money on an amp, preamp, source or speakers, or something for my family

The capacity of Humans for self-delusion is apparently unlimited - Mr.Spock

In many cases people seek nirvana from the last 6ft powering their systems. As a homeowner, I had a dedicated 20 amp line installed when I first moved in. And while it certainly helped, I can still hear the differences between power conditioners, power cords, interconnects, and speaker cables, so it’s hard for me to wrap my brain around David Bernings power supply negating the many things I’ve done before a components internal (or external) PS. Now, I did replace the Oppo 105 oem POS power supply with an aftermarket toroid based PS from eBay to great improvement, but when I inserted Geoff’s New Dark Matter onto the 105 tray my jaw dropped, much like it did after replacing expensive component iso devices with Machina Dynamica springs, a common sense, and inexpensive answer.to internal and external vibrations

I owned a PSA Premier Power Plant for far too long, buying into the ’regeneration’ hype. I also had several Furmans and BPTs. These days I am using a Core Power 1800, which I am told improves the sound even better with the addition of their new companion, Deep Core, which goes between the wall and the PLC: it could likely improve the potential benefits of a lot of PLCs

Seems a lot of people are raving about the Yeti battery supply with LI-ion battery. I’d like to try one. Also the PPT products that go inside ones electrical panel sound promising (see Agon thread). But that's because I have tried other things taped to the inside door, that to my ears work

As to whose PCs, speaker cables, and interconnects, I have swapped out far too many. I probably have several thousand dollars of cables in the closet, most have little to no resale value. For the past 2 years I have upgraded to WireWorld and am enjoying the best sound to date: seems his mini-series are the best bargains. My point being spending a little more up front (for properly engineered cables) can save thousands in the long run.

hth

For those wondering about using a generator to power their system. I have done it but not on a voluntary basis. We have several power outages every year so I have a whole house generator. During one extended outage a friend and I listened to my system. The incoming voltage was a spot on 120 volts but there was noticeable background noise coming out of my speakers even though my Synergistic Research and Equi-Tech units were being used. The noise was similar to someone in your house  running a blender or mixer and you had no power conditioning being used. It was noticeable in soft music passages or between songs but most music masked it.

My brother is a carpenter and he told me about using lower grade extension cables for power tools and there is a difference when using a higher amperage designed cable vs one that is not. The Skillsaw I was using had more power and came up to speed quicker and felt like it had more torque than a lower grade cable. I have always believed that the start to a better sounding audio system starts with what comes out of the wall socket first. Better cables and noise reduction treatment is the start of a great sounding system, (Crap in, Crap out). 

The transient demand of a power amplifier is much higher than that of the power tool.

Add in, is that the transient demands are all over the map and always happening, and with a veritable infinite number of conditions...with the amplifier.

And then added in again, on top of that..is,...that humans hear principally via that transient and all complex transient systems...and we define our hearing limits in the small tiny area of perfection of delivery/shaping/levels/timing of those complex transient loads.

the above allows one to begin to define the question, so they can begin to shape their understanding why power cords make a difference.

Wow, this has been an excellent thread thus far. I never know where things are headed when I post a thread, its like being blindfolded on a roller coaster ride! I am thankful to all of you who have contributed as we all can always learn no matter how large or small your system is or how much you know or think you know there is always someone who knows more than you! Now as far as the "Kamikaze’s" out there dive bombing with snide remarks and negativity please be more respectful to the group some of us are here to learn.

Thanks again to all.

Cheers!

You would think with all that cost of the SR and ET power conditioning units, that they would get rid of almost any noise.

That 10A Skillsaw can draw 60+ amps on startup, and can also draw temporarily when loaded much more than 10A as well.


A large ClassAB, ClassD, or Class A/AB amplifier turned up loud can also pull greater than 15A for a small portion of the AC waveform, though unlike the Skillsaw, the average current won't exceed 15A.

hoghead112 posts11-14-2019 8:43amMy brother is a carpenter and he told me about using lower grade extension cables for power tools and there is a difference when using a higher amperage designed cable vs one that is not. The Skillsaw I was using had more power and came up to speed quicker and felt like it had more torque than a lower grade cable. I have always believed that the start to a better sounding audio system starts with what comes out of the wall socket first. Better cables and noise reduction treatment is the start of a great sounding system, (Crap in, Crap out).

There is nothing factual about claiming that humans hear "Principally via that transient" or most of the rest of that paragraph.

While it is true that the initial arrival wavefront is dominant in sound localization, that is primarily due to group-delay/phase based inter-aural processing (difference in what reaches each ear), not in the exact shape of that wavefront. We also give dominance to processing of the initial wavefront and reject echoes and reflections, to a degree, for transient sounds, which gives credence to the importance of transient response. The brain tends to lump the first 35msec of the transient together, so transient has to be put in perspective.

However, to say this is "principally" how we hear, is just not at all supportable. It is not even supportable for localization which includes level cues, frequency cues, etc. which in music can be as important as timing cues. It is just a part of our auditory system for processing threats. Evolutionary changes to support speech and better interpret threats greatly extend what it means to "hear".

teo_audio1,228 posts11-14-2019 8:58amAnd then added in again, on top of that..is,...that humans hear principally via that transient and all complex transient systems...and we define our hearing limits in the small tiny area of perfection of delivery/shaping/levels/timing of those complex transient loads

.

@blumartini - unfortunately, your original post failed to identify price vs. performance by component.

I have investigated cables for many years and power cable improvement  seems differ with the component to which they are attached.
- components with "less-capable" power supplies tend to exhibit more of an improvement
- compared to the same cable when used on amps with massive power supplies, which tend to exhibit less of an improvement

e.g. my Schiit Bifrost DAC sounded much better with a Signal Power Cable, which made no improvement when connected to my NAIM amp

So what may appear to a "good" power cable when used on a source component may not be so good for a Power Amp.

Sorry to complicate matters, but Power cables can be pretty fickle

The only commercially available power cable that I believe has the best price/performance ratio is Nordost, because I have heard them make noticeable improvements in a system and they have models at various price points better suited to the different components.

I now make my own, so I stopped looking at the vast amount of offerings now commercially available.

Unfortunately, some companies out there offer products that are not much better than a piece of bulk furutech/oyaide cable with a couple of good connectors attached. These make it difficult for anyone trying to buy a cable that is significantly better

Regards  Steve

Greetings All,

After reading Jay Luong of Audio Bacon;s Review of 27 Best Audiophile Power Cords I must say that I was Impressed! Jay spent several months reviewing each and everyone of them in depth. I must say this guy is the "Navy Seal of Reviewers" !!!

I thought it would be exciting if he would join us so I invited him along with all the companies he reviewed to join us. I dont know if they all will but I am positive most wouldn’t want to chime in :)

The Invite List:
Jay Luong Author of Audio Bacon Website

Atlas Cables

Audioquest

Furutech

Gutwire

High Fidelity Cables

Kimber Kable

NRG Custom Cables

Morrow Audio

Neotech

Nordost

Requisite Audio

Sablon Audio

Snake River

Straight Wire

Triode Wire Labs

TriPoint Audio

Verastarr

Vovox

WireWorld

Hope you can make it!

Best,

BluMartini

@jtcf

In response to your question on gas powered generators.

Aloha BluMartini, I’ve done some A/B comparisons with the p15(A)and my 15 year old Shunyata(B) conditioner. The P15 showed 4% THD and a real choppy sign wave coming in and .3 THD going out with A very clean sign wave. On Kauai we have a combination of Solar power and Diesel generated power. Power supply can be very inconsistent at times so surge protection is mandatory. I have a "whole house surge protecter" on my incoming 200amp line with a dedicated 20amp line to my audio room for audio equipment.
On my amps there seemed to be little or no difference.
On my preamp there was an obvious difference. The highs were more extended cymbals were faster and sounded more real with more air around them. Side to side sound stage got wider probably due to better definition though out the recorded frequency.
But, the best improvement is in the phono stage and CD player. The phono stage (and preamp)plugged into the P15 made an obvious and very positive difference. Soundstage got even wider but also front to back soundstage was way more pronounced. Bass got very tight and was easily identified, verses being somewhat muddy and vague. Drum attacks were more startling. CD player was similar although the depth wasn’t as prevalent. I generally don’t sit and listen to CD’s. I could go on but I got to go to work. Needless to say it was a positive addition to my system.

Dave

Pretty much EVERY category of product has an extremely expensive luxury class of that product type.

It is only in audio I have seen such blatant crude behaviour towards even the existence of such a class in product and those they may be able to afford them.

It would be like a Toyota owners harrasing a Porsche owenr insulting them for buying such a thing cause their Toyota gets them from point A to Point B just like their Porsche.

You could do that analogy with Watches, Handbags, clothes literally any consumer product type.

Why is it only the Audio realm where the venom comes out like this just for the existence of that class of product?

Thank you @Iwin and @blumartini  for the responses.So it seems like a generator supplies a good steady stream of power but requires noise filtering,which I thought it might.I appreciate you taking the time to indulge my curiosity.
I'm wondering if it will be a "thing" someday - audiophile solar generators to power systems.

"I have investigated cables for many years and power cable improvement seems differ with the component to which they are attached.
- components with "less-capable" power supplies tend to exhibit more of an improvement
- compared to the same cable when used on amps with massive power supplies, which tend to exhibit less of an improvement"

Williewonka,

That ihas been my experience as well.  I have a Bryston Int. Amp that doesn't seem to care what PC I use to feed it with. Other Bryston Amp owners have voiced the same experience. Robustness in power supply design is an important factor.  

"I discovered that each power cord sounded very different going into the Ayre L-5xe but totally the same going into the LTA. So I reached out to Mark Schneider at LTA to report what I found. He told me that David Berning, who designs the LTA gear, is a power supply specialist above all else and, because of the integrity and quality of the power supply in my LTA amplifier the sonic differences between power cord were negligible. In fact, the stock power cord from LTA sounded just as good as a $1500 cable I compared it to. So, I purchased one of the better performing (and more expensive) cords for my Ayre and another inexpensive cord for the LTA, saving myself several hundred dollars in the process."

Dodgealum,

Putting your money where it does the most good and not overspending where it doesn't is good advice.   

When you have base Porsche Cayman owners claiming their base Porsche will blow the doors off a 2020 Supra just because it is a Porsche or that their $2,500,  5 liter capacity Louis Vuitton shoulder bag will carry twice as much as someone else's  $50 dollar, 6 liter capacity shoulder bag, then, perhaps then you would have a valid analogy.

The vast majority of audiophiles, the one's that have 10's of thousands invested in their audio systems are not uber-rich, they are typically middle class, upper-middle class, and lower end of the 1% earners who have decided this is something they want to invest in, same as someone may invest in a high end car, or boat, or ....

What I never ever see is the behavior you claim below with the exception of the odd case of snark against an uber expensive piece of equipment. Buy a $50,000 set of speakers, and all you will get is compliments. Spend $50,000 on room construction and treatments, and you will also get compliments and wows. Ditto for $10K on an amplifier. Heck, even $20K+ on a vinyl setup rarely gets too much of a negative comment, and likely many complimenting how good it looks. Spend $5,000 on a tweak that is hooked up in a system with "average" speakers in an acoustically questionable room, and then claim amazing improvements ... whole different ball game and it has nothing to do with luxury, or financial capability.

The only venom I see w.r.t. uber expensive, but questionable items is straw-man arguments like the one you just made below.

swanlee5979 posts11-14-2019 1:58pmPretty much EVERY category of product has an extremely expensive luxury class of that product type.

It is only in audio I have seen such blatant crude behaviour towards even the existence of such a class in product and those they may be able to afford them.

It would be like a Toyota owners harrasing a Porsche owenr insulting them for buying such a thing cause their Toyota gets them from point A to Point B just like their Porsche.

You could do that analogy with Watches, Handbags, clothes literally any consumer product type.

Why is it only the Audio realm where the venom comes out like this just for the existence of that class of product?