@pindac How one accesses various storage medium is also critical as to favorability for any one user. Access to music files by far the easiest, this alone could make it more desirable than any physical medium. Uninterrupted music sessions is huge draw for me, just last night suddenly got the notion to try various renditions of same song by Tony Bennett, Nat King Cole and Al Martino. A few presses on tablet, shazam. To look through my albums and cue up song may have taken hours.
The past meets the future
I have become a huge advocate of streaming over the last few years as streaming has at long last reached audiophile sound quality. So, for someone that is new to audio or does not have a lot of money invested… it is hard to recommend this route.
However, as an old fart. One that suffered through low end turntables, unbelievable surface noise, scratched records, and debatable fidelity for much of his life. Owning a tremendous analog end is such a pleasure. I recently upgraded my contemporary Linn LP12 to nearly the maximum. I have a Audio Research Reference 3 phono stage so the sound quality is simply stunning.
Taking a Covid break and going to my local record store… buying a half dozen great old blues albums… cleaning up to pristine condition. It is such a pleasure to hear such fidelity and musicality from a ritual I have performed since a teenager… record store, spinning. That has been mainstream for me for over fifty years. I guess it is like the old Shortwave radio guys when I was growing up. They had the 25’ antenna sticking up above their suburban houses in the 1960’s.
Just a nod to the era and tradition that will soon pass into history. It has been a blast.
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Is not an alternative way useful for looking at the differing types of medium that leads onto the need to use different methods to produce a replay of the stored information. Moving on speedily 75 years from the invention of the Phonograph. The usual medium of choice for storage from the Olden Days, when the might of Analogue was omnipresent has been to store the recorded information onto a Vinyl Disc or a Magnetic Polyester Tape as the Source Material. It is safe to say these methods had time of use as the mainstream methods for a period of 20ish Years and were limited to storing Sound Only. Both Mediums have a weight and a volume for each unit, so this requires a thought out plan from the user, for the managing of the the items when acquired in large quantities. The methods for maintaining and storing these Mediums has evolved and to do it correct in terms of protecting it to be used for continued usage is a new area of discipline it itself, and not too many are going to take on the challenges required. The use of the former as a storage medium was superseded in the mainstream by the Compact Disc as the Storage Medium. The CD is a Polycarbonate, with a Metallic Coating and other Protective Layers of Coatings. A Compact Disc was not only limited to storing Sound Reproduction, but was much more versatile and was used in numerous applications where computing was required, Photographic and Film are both commonly found as a content stored on the medium. The CD was to be a tremendous success as a Storage Medium and was found in most households as a means of storing information or used as means to have access to music replays. As a Source Material, it has a mass and a volume, and requires a consideration from a user for the methods required to store it when acquired in large quantities. There may be disciplines developing for the maintenance and storage of this as medium, but as off yet, the knowledge is not as known as those that are required for the former methods. The use of a Hard Drive / RAM as a method to store recorded information and as a Source Material, is the most relevant method being adopted, the method is extremely similar to CD in the content that is typically stored on the produced files. It is a ubiquitous method and most households will have a means in place to store a information using a Hard Drive / RAM as the starage method, for these reasons it has a very high appeal and will be readily accepted in most situations. The Hard Drive / RAM as a Storage Medium also differs as the storage space requirement for a large volume of information is substantially reduced and will not impact on the need for space if it is not readily available. Whereas any of the former methods can impact quite noticeably on a space if the Source Material is present in large quantities. Any logistical requirements for the transport of the entirety of a large collection when stored as a Hard Drive / RAM will only require a small amount of consideration, as it can be such that a few thousand Albums can be consolidated into a device that has a few Kg's in weight as a heavy type of a design. Where the two former storage methods detach themselves from the methods used to use a Hard Drive / RAM method is when this method also incorporates a the Streaming method to acquire a Source Material. The infrastructure required to support streaming is tied into the Cloud Storage Industry, and this Industry is dependant on DATA Centres, that are substantial drains on energy and need a substantial 24/7 Power Feed. Using a Cloud Service is totally common today and most are using one, even if they don't know of it as a App in use. What is not readily accepted by many, is the idea of buying into a Service to acquire a Source Material to be used for a Music Replay. At present from my end, I have my main music replays stored on the Vinyl and CD Medium and I have appox' 100 FLAC Files stored on a Hard Drive RAM. In relation to how these replays receive air time, the Vinyl LP Album has approx' 70%, CD Album has approx' 20%+ and File Stored Music Albums along with Alexia has approx' 10%. My wife who has built the HiFi System and Music Collection with me and has a real passion for the system, has a different approach approx' 10% Vinyl LP Album, 10% CD Album on the system, 35% CD Album in the Vehicle as a replay and 45% mixture of FLAC Files on the Laptop and Alexia when in and around the house.
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Im 75 and dont regret to change to digital at all. I do miss holding an album in my hands and perusing the picture on the cover and reading the notes on the back. Since most of my LPs were classical was also treated to may old master pictures by way of bonus. The surface noise I will never miss. Digital having moved into more than just passable sq works for me. To best my modest digital rig wd require more money than Id care to pay now although I can afford it. Id rather pay the money for the music. So in my case no going back even if in fact a top quality TT and cart and phono stage cd best my set up. For me the downsides esp the surface noise too much but even if that cd be overcome by superior setup and cleaning there wdnt be sufficient records to suit my needs. Were I heavily invested in pop or maybe jazz things might be different but classical is a non starter.for me on lp now, I used to have a bout 1000 lps now im down to about a hundred-the rest have been replace by cds and downloads. But vinyl isnt dead it will survive and likely even thrive-lets not forget that there are people today who still collect and play 78s .
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Sorry you've never experienced "good phonographic playback". |
...mid-'60's, I grew up and lived across from one of those 'ham' operators with the big antenna. Walt was one of those Morse fans that used a Lighting Bug keyer, although set up for voice.... Walt was a pleasant reserved kinda guy....looking back, he looked like what recently would be a archetypical 'geek'... Don't remember the plastic pen protector for his shirts, but was more curious about his gear. Bought a SW receiver later on....got more enjoyment out of the 'stereo stuff that followed....*S* Thanks for the flashback, @ghdprentice 👍 |
As to the issue artist treated unfairly in distribution of money with streaming. I agree there are issues here, but this is not inherent to streaming platform, its simply an unfair business model at present.
And since when have we not had unfair business models in the music business? I remember when a few record companies controlled the entire recording and distribution networks, Some bands signing for multi $100k contracts, others for relative pennies, and that if they could get recorded at all! Think of how many band never even got to record in the bad old days! I know I have a few cd's of these totally obscure bands from 60's into 80's where bands only output was some demos that were never released in the day. What about all these bands?
No, if one is going to lament the good old days, if you look back without the rose colored glasses you'll see they weren't so good. I lament what I believe will be the passing of vinyl, don't lament the business models that existed during it's heyday. I'll also add, the vinyl situation as it applies to business models continues to be very bad. I bet more than 90% of streaming content NOT available on vinyl. Most of the vinyl I see is the some reissue of some reissue of older material for which bands have been handsomely paid or current popular bands which are also being handsomely paid.
At least with streaming and the wide availability of home recording equipment one has a much better chance of having your music heard vs. vinyl. Since streaming I've heard the most obscure bands imaginable, both current and from those not so good old days. Just yesterday I discovered Moondog, totally obscure experimental artist from the 60's, the guy had to invent his own label, and of course no one heard his music back in the day, eventually left for Europe to be heard. This guy also has amazing life story, which is another bonus of streaming in that you get some insight into artists with attendant stories on artist and/or recording screen.
Streaming is awesome in that I get to discover new artists and new releases from old artists all the time. My musical horizons have been pushed much farther than vinyl ever allowed. Back in the day, the only way I could broaden my music horizons was through University student FM stations.
How can vinyl hope to compete with streaming going into future. I don't think its possible just based on some of the above. Vinyl requires expenditures most artists can't afford, pressing and distribution costs alone make it prohibitive. Vinyl will never be more than nostalgic or niche in future. |
you said: ’
Acrually: - we have lost many profiles such as stereohydron - the MM cantilevers by JVC and Technics are definitely not made anymore- hollow beryllium? jewel cantilevers are nothing new - I agree with the re-tipper thing - some new guys think they are much better than the establishment and are extortionate - more new cartridges? Pre1985 - no - possibly vinyl dark age in the 90’s - more turntables? No - compare to 1970’s heyday
I think you are talking about the 90’s when the only thing to really keep vinyl in the mainstream were DJ wannabe’s like me. People buy for vinyl now for really naff kitsch reasons (ie they love the crackles) and often get awful Usb link decks that really do no justice to the format. Nearly all vinyl is digitally mastered too. 180gram is a bit of a con to satisfy a somewhat dim market. Sadly this has forced vinyl prices stratospherically. Vinyl costs at least double CD prices due to retooling. I used to pick up superb vinyl at car boot sales in the 90’s and at jumble sales.
btw I was also thinking of I-Robot.
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i just don't get people who say that "good phonographic playback is totally noiseless" - that is basically like saying that analog tape is noiseless when it is quite obvious to anybody with ears that it is not. even a dolby A-encoded master tape has a residual amount of tape noise. even virgin vinyl in a lab-grade clean room has surface noise. how anybody can deny this is beyond me. |
Streaming is another Method to create a replay of a music recording. In terms of the Technology, it is the latest and most relevant, and interfaces quite satisfactorily into general methods used in a household today. There are those who use downloaded content only, and some others are using Hard Media that is stored as a file in conjunction with downloaded content. When it comes to the individuals who have chose to use Hard Media and create a stored file, these Hard Media Items were at one time a sale item that was supplying a performer/performers and their support, a reasonable remuneration for their work. A New Act with a growing fan base could quite easily develop their act, as the monies were available to get to this level. Nearly all Hard Media owned by myself in the past, especially my earliest days has been purchased as new items. Today I know how my purchase along with many others purchases benefitted a Performer or Group. Today with the knowledge of how beneficial Hard Media Merchandise is to a New Act, I deliberately buy the material, my most recent being a Crowd Fund for a Group I have almost Zero Knowledge of. If I were to go down the streaming route, my purchase of New Acts Material would be meniscal as a remuneration and the chances of the New Act to survive is severely at risk, when revenues from streaming are the only method for receiving a payment for the work. Resorting to a Live Performance will help with remuneration, but again, the turnaround of Performers and Bands is becoming vast, and very few are not able to develop their full potential, as monies are quite starved. I don't look forward to the time the only option is, to attempt to enjoy music replayed as a streamed content in the home, from an endless roll over of short lived acts that produce almost identical content, very similar to how a TV music channel works . I also enjoy seeing a Act that has a longevity, one that develops their skills and ultimately become one that is more than worth seeing live and is able to be present for a long period of time, this is where the best memories are to be found. ,
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All good comments above. especially williewonka's recitation of Ghdprentice's statement of a good losing it's performance edge. In looking back on my own situation over the last few years, every single bit of attention and upgrades have been totally committed to streaming side. As a result streaming sound advantage has in fact commended the vinyl side to a purely nostalgic medium, it just sits there folornly unused, very sad. Even more sad is, I'm just beginning to acknowledge that regardless of how much I upgraded vinyl side it would rarely be used. I'm so immersed in the complexity of streaming, the sound quality is wonderful, the convenience is undeniable, whats not to like. I'm very afraid my listening prerogatives may have changed to the point I may not be able to go back to old ways of listening. My new way of listening is pretty much stream of consciousness, with a few taps on my tablet I can instantly go wherever my mind takes me, totally addictive for me!
I'm feeling very sad at the moment for my vinyl, all the effort to obtain present setup, 3500+ albums, and all it is is a memory piece. I'm really in a difficult place right now as to whether to sell it all off, or see it languish. The hoarder in me wants to keep, but whats the point if I only rarely or never use it.
I know from other posts all over the interwebs others have been at this same juncture and sold everything off, now I'm here. Is this how vinyl will die? |
There are some interesting responses above that made me think of other areas in audio that might suffer the same fate - the first was loudspeakers and, if they become a thing of the past won’t large mono-block amplifiiers suffer the same fate? With the advent of Atmos, even small speaker systems can sound "very effective", and by "effective" I do not necessarily mean good.
From my own personal experience, I downsized my home theatre system to a Bluesound Sound bar + subwoofer
As @ghdprentice noted
And as new devices, supported by the convenience that "Alexa:" provides, come to the market, then is that the demise of high end audio altogether? I think we now live in a era of "convenience"
Two channel systems started a revolution way back in time when it was realized that it added dimension to the music. Will Atmos (and other forms of sound manipulation approaches) see the end of stereo recordings? I think that high-end systems will be around for the next little while, but perhaps more as "Audio Bling". But the move to those invisible home automation systems that incorporates audio reproduction will probably see the end of the magnificent two channel systems that adorn our homes today - not just the humble turntable. But that brings me to the opening scene of "I, Robot",
I Robot - Première Scène - Bing video Something to think about 😎 Regards - Steve
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I am just going through the process of Packing a PTP Solid Nine TT to be taken for a demonstration at a friends tomorrow, where it will be sitting along side a SP10 R, and used to demonstrate Platter Mats and Spindle Weights/Clamps for their effect on each TT. It is at a time like this when the fragility of the TT and attached ancillaries become a very strong focus, and the thought process is almost as a delicate a operation as a hand cue. Would I swap the fragility for a permanent alternative, not yet, it is where my Heritage with music replays are the with the most history. |
@sns +1
To me the real key to longevity is performance. Sure, there is nostalgia, or cachet. Take for instance the wrist watch. As a child… young adult… adult I saw the Rolex the mark of a successful man. I had lusted after one since a kid. So ten or fifteen years ago I was in a work position that it would have been appropriate to wear such a accoutrement. My experience with luxury stuff was that in addition to being a work of art… they were functionally far superior… I mean… high end, fountain pens, audio gear, cars.. etc. You get superior performance AND great aesthetics. My Lexus was a tremendous surprise, it exceeded my expectations in performance in every way… it was a bargain. That is the definition of luxury stuff to me… expensive, but a bargain. So I bought a Tag Heuer as a tip toe in before I spent $10- 15K on a Rolex. I was shocked at its poor time keeping performance. Plus or minus a couple seconds a day. I got it fixed by the manufacturer to keep time to a second a day. That is good for a mechanical Rolex or Tag. I was practically living in Japan. There can be two trains within 1 minute… you need to know the exact time… not some generality. I don’t want to be spending all sorts of tie fiddling with my $15K watch. How is that luxury? I was really disappointed and disillusioned.I want back to the drawing board. So after lots of research I found the Seiko Astron for a few thousand. Beautiful, but accurate within 1/10,000 of a second for 10,000 years, solar powered, and automatically changed time zones where you walked off the plane. Absolutely no question I was getting on the right train. Now, that is a luxury good! It doesn’t have the gold and recognition… but it is superior in performance and looks great.
My point is that when a good looses its performance edge… it’s appeal becomes all nostalgic… which will appeal to a hugely smaller population. so, as digital gets the sonic edge in all cost categories the renaissance will be over. Sure, there will be folks that continue to love it… but the audience will drop to tiny.
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Yes, there continues to be innovation in vinyl, but not to the same extent and speed of digital. Vinyl has some real physical limitations, both in recording and playback arenas, digital much less. What does this mean for future?
I can only say as a boomer, vinyl was the dominant physical playback medium. From the time we were children we were exposed to record players and records, as budding audiophiles, turntables, cartridges held all our attention. We gathered great numbers of albums, albums easily available at department, drug, record, discount stores. Even allowing for inflation, albums were relatively cheap, we could use allowance or paper route money to purchase records. And I could go on and on. This was the golden age of audio to my mind, records dominated in so many ways. Today it is only niche, certainly there has been a renaissance, but this has been from near extinction levels. If I compare youth today to those of my time, vinyl is practically or totally non-existent for them. Between many, many youthful relatives and friends of theirs, the only youth I know involved with vinyl are DJ's, not a single one has turntable or home stereo system, most have or have had albums owned by parents in the home, all sold or cast off in garage or attic. I hear about this vinyl resurgence but don't see it with youthful masses, the only youth I observe becoming involved with vinyl are the budding audiophiles, relatively few and far between
I have fond memories of vinyl, lament the vast majority of today's youth won't have these experiences and memories of a particular music format. I love steaming, but these vinyl experiences and memories cannot be replicated by streaming for the youth of today. |
Very true about the resurgent phase… the number and variety of really high end gear… reliant of course on material science as well a improved techniques and specialization has been remarkable. Very satisfying for us old guys steeped in a lifetime of collecting.
A glass of great red wine and vinyl go well. Tonite, Leone D'Oro Vino Nobile Di Montepulciano, 2015 |
Interesting thread - lots of nostalgia floating around, but here is what I am seeing since the advent of the CD.
I think vinyl has made its resurgence and established itself as another medium that for some is preferred. I have some albums in both formats Both formats perform to very similar levels in my system, so for me, it's not a case of which one is better. I just see each format as serving a different purpose
Where will it all end up? Only time will tell - but MY vinyl rig is here to stay Regards - Steve |
Don't forget to clean the stylus and use an anti static devise to remove the static created from brushing the disc. Lets not get too casual about this. :-) FWIW, putting together/setting up a good analog system is a hobby within a hobby as is record collecting. Both are time consuming and can be humbling at times. The better your 'ears' the more humbling it can become. But if you are a bit anal about it the results can be very rewarding. Loved it when I was doing it! |
Yes, there is something to be said about the ritual. Now that I get a bit of a SQ edge from my vinyl… I am enjoying the ritual a bit more. So much so I ordered a German Ramar record brush. I typically use a Last fluid and brush before playing if my album if the disk has picked up some dust. To enhance the tradition I actually just bought the highly rated Ramar brush rosewood steained record brush. Appearent lay effective and beautiful. |
To me a quality analog front end sounds more lifelike and real versus a comparable digital setup. Playing a record can at times give a sense of euphoria in the form of goosebumps or hair standing on end that is surprising and quite pleasant. I’ve never had that feeling playing digital or streaming. Maybe it’ll happen some day, but hasn’t yet. |
Very romantic @ghdprentice. It is sort of silly but I suppose that is the way I look at it. When comparing digital to analog versions of the same material I prefer the digital file over the analog record about 75% of the time. But, I still buy records. You can teach an old dog new tricks but it is very hard to get rid of the old ones., like driving a manual transmission. |
I do not stream music. I have yet to find a platform that suites my (eccentric) taste. But I do convert a lot of my collection to DSD and playback on random. I prefer the sound of the vinyl, but admittedly I haven’t invested as much in my DAC. To me the benefit of digital is that after I rate all my songs (about 14 weeks of playback in the 4/5 star range) and hit random, I can go from Ella to Rites of Spring to The Microphones to The Freeborne to Little Willie John without changing a single setting. That’s an 80 year tour and, in my option, they all sound great back to back. |
I really enjoy both mediums, the problem with that is expenditure goes up in great measure, I don't doubt a commensurate amount to equalize sound quality. Unlike Ghdprentice, my analog has a way to go to catch up to digital.
Greatest liability to going in dual direction for those of us with limits on pocketbook is both systems suffer in directing expenditures on one or the other.
I'm also curious about the future of vinyl. If vinyl at or near end of innovation, and streaming in relatively early days, just a matter of time before absolute sound quality of digital surpasses vinyl. I'm sure it will maintain it's place as niche product, but over the long run become obsolete. Boomer audiophiles have lifetime of experiencing or hearing others advocate superiority of vinyl, this has been great motivator for preference of vinyl over digital. What happens when that ends? I don't see a lot of younger audiophiles entering vinyl arena without superior sound quality as motivation. Some will be attracted to the more hands on experience, nostalgia motivations such as art work, but when superior sound quality allied to more convenience and relatively lower cost of digital is considered, I'm afraid vinyl days numbered. |
Ya gotta love the ritual attendant to playing vinyl. When you're done and drop the needle you then have to get up and change the record 3 times to listen to a Mahler symphony. Talk about a distraction! Seriously I'd prefer a SOTA vinyl system sound any day. (I had one close to about 10years ago - I gave it to my grandson-in-law and a large collection of vinyl to go with it). But by then I had gotten some good digital stuff, some good CD's, and it all changed. Now I could play the music I wanted to hear. With vinyl I was mainly listened to how great it imaged and made my music sound. Perhaps not a big deal for most folks but for me it was a distraction from hearing the musical content. And I could listen to my Mahler, etc, in one sit down! :-) I guess I'm not a real audiophile after all. |
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You are right, TTs are not going to disappear tomorrow. I always think on the long term… I guess that strategic planning being one of my professions always has me take a much longer view. The industry is still rebounding… but I would guess it will peak over the next ten or fifteen years (a much much smaller peak than the 20th century one) as performance of digital finally eclipses sound quality over analog at all cost levels and then begins a slow decline. It will not be like slide rules which just ended over night. I still have my K&E bamboo.
Yeah, it is fun to play with stuff. I like the tradition… but when you loose the SQ advantage that is a major driver. For me the tradition was established as a child, as many of us here. That will change as the generations roll over. |
Good question. I fortunately have an Audio Research Ref DAC and Audio Research Phono stage as well as Preamp and amp. I carefully chose my cartridge to match my taste. The result has been fantastic in both ends have exactly the same character… so the difference has been almost exclusively in detail.
So, I recently upgraded the tone arm and sub-chassis to the Ekos SE and Keel. Now the two ends are virtually exactly the same price at around $45K. The turntable has pulled ahead in detail and soundstaging on good recordings. I say that because I don’t sit around comparing the same recordings. I know the two ends really well. Analog gets the nod. The upgrade of the TT was worth it. But the character of the two ends are exactly as I like and overwhelmingly sound the same… so I am not disappointed at all listening to the digital end despite the possibility of getting a bit more detail using the tt… often it takes an audiophile pressing in vinyl to get the analog end to sound strikingly better. As you can see, I am trying to convey the fact that the difference is really pretty subtle and the sound quality of recordings are way more of a variable than which end I am using. |
Welcome Home once again
I've often told people new to vinyl, that if they don't like the "ritual" they might not like vinyl. But there is something about the ritual that is peaceful and maybe reflective which can be cathartic in this days of hustle & bustle. Plus, I found that I get lazy when listening to digital. I just let it play and as a consequence, I wasn't hearing the variety of music that I prefer |
Listening to LP's is a lot more than just the sound quality. Cleaning records, cartridge installation, feel of LP's (vs cd), shopping for used records, nostalgia etc., is a more wholesome process. It'll likely be an exclusive club, but it's certainly not over, at least not for me - not until that lady sings. Also - digital is not there yet. |
I see no end to the interest in collecting/playback of LPs. I bought a bunch on eBay this weekend - including a 70's German Atlantic Led Zeppelin I ($23.50). Today's new artists want their music released on LP. Pressing plants have backlogs of orders to fulfill. Nagra has announced the production of their first turntable. |
How would you compare the sound quality between your digital and analog setup? They seem to be roughly even investments. The decision in allocating money towards digital vs analog has been a bit of a decision for myself, but ended up buying a DAC within a budget. Even with my $100 practice cartridge, there is certainly the natural pleasantness to analog. I have previous experience with analog's domination over digital but no recent experience with TOL digital. |
LP playback is an escape from the audio/computer/internet connection. Having a NAS setup with a huge library and an Ipad is the next best thing since sliced bread. Reading album notes in Roon isn't the same as holding a period LP reading everything front to back and seeing all the period artists releases on the sleeve. "Just a nod to the era and tradition that will soon pass into history." I don't think it will pass, but it certainly is a shrinking pastime.
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