Dare I say start streaming with a higher end sreamer. Remember you will NEVER achieve the same fidelity as the original recording. No matter how much $ you spend.
The nightmare of the cartridge buyer...
I recently completed a several year quest to acquire a new cartridge. This quest was basically a major PITA and a nightmare!
Why? Well let’s take a look at what will be in store for all cartridge buyers’ in the US...and possibly other countries as well..IF they are seeking a top flite cartridge , like I was.
Firstly, and here’s where a big part of the problem lies: You will typically be unable to audition any cartridge under consideration...certainly not in your own home and more often than not, at your dealers either.
Then we have the fact that these products are closely monitored for who and whom can act as a dealer...which is then severally restricted by territory and distribution. We then add that the pricing is very well controlled...CAN WE SAY PRICE FIXING...which in most states is an illegal practice...but seems to be the rule here.
Let’s begin with my story...and then I am hoping that members will chime in here with their thoughts and probably also their own ’horror stories’....
About three years ago, I decided to acquire a cartridge that would replace my aging but still ok Benz Ruby 2...
I wanted a cartridge that would surpass that Benz in most areas...and one that would be priced at about $3-$5K. A lot of money to be spending on this piece of gear...or so I believed.
At the time, I was considering the following models....Benz LPS MR, Koetsu Urushi and Rosewood Platinum and the Lyra Kleos, Delos, a EMT, the Kiseki Purpleheart, Air Tight ( entry level model at the time..cannot remember what it was called) an Ortofon A90--and a Transfiguration Proteus--lastly one of the ZYX models. After some research, i discovered that the Ortofon’s, the Zyx’s and the Transfigurations wouldn’t work with my set up --due to too low an output by the respective cartridges for my all tube phono stage. So this left the Kiseki, the Koetsu’s, the Lyra’s and the Benz’s...and possibly the Air Tight model.
Circumstances changed and my cartridge buying escapade was put on hold...until a few months back. In the few years since my last foray, I find out that Benz have basically gone out of business ( again!!) and so has Transfiguration. Meanwhile, the Van Den Hul line has come into the US again...this time with a new distributor.
The Zyx line has totally been updated and the Lyra line is now more available than before...at least in theory. The Koetsu are now handled by Music Direct...who have essentially doubled the pricing across the board! Oh, i forgot, the Lyra line has increased by about 25% across the board ( i don’t think inflation can account for this!!)
So where to start auditioning --the answer...nowhere!
Instead I am supposed to rely on various dealers enthusiastic recommendation for these products...except for the fact that one dealer tells me that Koetsu’s are the best thing since mothers milk- and the other tells me that Koetsu’s are horrible with all the faults under the sun...( at least the ones that are in my budget..see above!) Can I hear any of these for myself...either in my system, or at the respective dealers...heck NO! ( and don’t think this type of scenario/ behavior isn’t consistent for other brands as well!--irrespective of whether the dealer(s) carries said brand or not!).
Here I am left with the choice of dropping several thousand dollars on a product that a) has no ability to be heard in my own system..therefore having no clue as to the results that I will get, b) has absolutely no return policy c) can be easily damaged by myself or others in the case of incorrect mounting to the tonearm...and lastly...and this is the one that really annoys me the most: I must shop for these products at a very limited amount of vendors who all are naysaying their competitors and acting extremely unprofessionally in the process. ( Do i really have to talk to the prospective rep for the line in order to determine the compatibility of the cartridge under question with my arm, the reasoning behind the asked price, where the dealer is that should be selling me the piece in question ( so as not to cross territorial lines) and on and on!!)
Then we have this little bonbon...The damn Japanese sourced cartridge(s) is available on several Japanese web sites at a price that is usually 50 -60% of the retail price here in the USA!! And that price in Japan is still at FULL RETAIL! ( Yes, I know it cost a ton of money to ship these things from Japan to here ( since they weigh a ton), LOL).
Where does this leave the US consumer in regards to the acquisition of a top flite cartridge...IMO the answer is between a hard place and a rock..You either pay through the nose and get totally ripped off by the likes of Music Direct and the various small independent reps in the US for these cartridges, or you takes your choice and risk buying from a grey market vendor abroad...but at a fraction of the price! BTW, mysteriously most of the top flite Benz cartridges continue to be very available from a vendor in China who seems to have cornered the market?? What’s up with this??
I can go on and about this journey, as I have just began to scratch the top of the heap in this story, but let’s hear from you guys as to your experiences and thoughts.... Was your top flite cartridge acquisition an equal nightmare, or was it something else?
Why? Well let’s take a look at what will be in store for all cartridge buyers’ in the US...and possibly other countries as well..IF they are seeking a top flite cartridge , like I was.
Firstly, and here’s where a big part of the problem lies: You will typically be unable to audition any cartridge under consideration...certainly not in your own home and more often than not, at your dealers either.
Then we have the fact that these products are closely monitored for who and whom can act as a dealer...which is then severally restricted by territory and distribution. We then add that the pricing is very well controlled...CAN WE SAY PRICE FIXING...which in most states is an illegal practice...but seems to be the rule here.
Let’s begin with my story...and then I am hoping that members will chime in here with their thoughts and probably also their own ’horror stories’....
About three years ago, I decided to acquire a cartridge that would replace my aging but still ok Benz Ruby 2...
I wanted a cartridge that would surpass that Benz in most areas...and one that would be priced at about $3-$5K. A lot of money to be spending on this piece of gear...or so I believed.
At the time, I was considering the following models....Benz LPS MR, Koetsu Urushi and Rosewood Platinum and the Lyra Kleos, Delos, a EMT, the Kiseki Purpleheart, Air Tight ( entry level model at the time..cannot remember what it was called) an Ortofon A90--and a Transfiguration Proteus--lastly one of the ZYX models. After some research, i discovered that the Ortofon’s, the Zyx’s and the Transfigurations wouldn’t work with my set up --due to too low an output by the respective cartridges for my all tube phono stage. So this left the Kiseki, the Koetsu’s, the Lyra’s and the Benz’s...and possibly the Air Tight model.
Circumstances changed and my cartridge buying escapade was put on hold...until a few months back. In the few years since my last foray, I find out that Benz have basically gone out of business ( again!!) and so has Transfiguration. Meanwhile, the Van Den Hul line has come into the US again...this time with a new distributor.
The Zyx line has totally been updated and the Lyra line is now more available than before...at least in theory. The Koetsu are now handled by Music Direct...who have essentially doubled the pricing across the board! Oh, i forgot, the Lyra line has increased by about 25% across the board ( i don’t think inflation can account for this!!)
So where to start auditioning --the answer...nowhere!
Instead I am supposed to rely on various dealers enthusiastic recommendation for these products...except for the fact that one dealer tells me that Koetsu’s are the best thing since mothers milk- and the other tells me that Koetsu’s are horrible with all the faults under the sun...( at least the ones that are in my budget..see above!) Can I hear any of these for myself...either in my system, or at the respective dealers...heck NO! ( and don’t think this type of scenario/ behavior isn’t consistent for other brands as well!--irrespective of whether the dealer(s) carries said brand or not!).
Here I am left with the choice of dropping several thousand dollars on a product that a) has no ability to be heard in my own system..therefore having no clue as to the results that I will get, b) has absolutely no return policy c) can be easily damaged by myself or others in the case of incorrect mounting to the tonearm...and lastly...and this is the one that really annoys me the most: I must shop for these products at a very limited amount of vendors who all are naysaying their competitors and acting extremely unprofessionally in the process. ( Do i really have to talk to the prospective rep for the line in order to determine the compatibility of the cartridge under question with my arm, the reasoning behind the asked price, where the dealer is that should be selling me the piece in question ( so as not to cross territorial lines) and on and on!!)
Then we have this little bonbon...The damn Japanese sourced cartridge(s) is available on several Japanese web sites at a price that is usually 50 -60% of the retail price here in the USA!! And that price in Japan is still at FULL RETAIL! ( Yes, I know it cost a ton of money to ship these things from Japan to here ( since they weigh a ton), LOL).
Where does this leave the US consumer in regards to the acquisition of a top flite cartridge...IMO the answer is between a hard place and a rock..You either pay through the nose and get totally ripped off by the likes of Music Direct and the various small independent reps in the US for these cartridges, or you takes your choice and risk buying from a grey market vendor abroad...but at a fraction of the price! BTW, mysteriously most of the top flite Benz cartridges continue to be very available from a vendor in China who seems to have cornered the market?? What’s up with this??
I can go on and about this journey, as I have just began to scratch the top of the heap in this story, but let’s hear from you guys as to your experiences and thoughts.... Was your top flite cartridge acquisition an equal nightmare, or was it something else?
319 responses Add your response
...my Koetsu dealer told me that it is actually cheaper to fly into Japan for a few days, buy the cartridge there and enjoy the visit, than it is to get ripped off by the likes of Music Direct and their repacious profiteering with these cartridges.Go for it. I have travelled to Japan many times and some gear is more expensive there than it is here. I do not know if this is true for Koetsu or not. And Music Direct is not the only dealer for Koetsu in the U.S. I haven't been an audio dealer for several years. While I always look for the best deal, I pay retail just like you do. What's your excuse for acting the Troll? Hmmm. |
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@br3098, Typical,whenever the poster cannot come up with a reasonable or logical response, out comes the ‘troll’ word.Pathetic. @tablejockey yes, that is what typically occurs in this cartridge buying experience, you take a leap of faith and hope for the best...is that situation really acceptable to you when acquiring a multi thousand dollar cartridge? Remember, the high end cartridge market is going to be seeing cartridges that are priced above $20k in no time. IMO, and I know I’m in the minority here, but anyone who is losing big $$ on a whim like this, probably won’t be continuing to do that for too long, before the house gets foreclosed on...IMHO. |
+analogluvr I’ve been trying to get my Van Den Hul cart rebuilt by VDH what a pain in the you now what. I’m on the west coast of Canada by the way. I asked VDH if I could send the cart directly to them for the rebuild. They said no it has to go through the USA distributor (who is on the southern east coast of the USA by the way) So i’d have to send my cart through two international boarders there and back ,like that wont be risky. I have to pay someone a % for the rebuild in another country. Its just not worth it to me its a sham IMO. I really like the VDH carts I just wont give a % for someone forwarding my mail. Don’t get me wrong I always support my local audio shops but i’m not one for giving money for doing absolutely nothing (I know they are taking on the product to sell). Looks like i’m moving on from VDH (unless I by new again) as I wont deal with multiple countries for my service work. Unless the USA is the destination of course nothing against you folks in the USA. maybe soundsmith can re-tip and re-suspension? Also Canada has a trade agreement with the EU its actually better duty wise for me to deal directly but VDH doesn’t want to hurt their USA distributor. The distributor should not be in the loop for repair services for out of warranty items period IMO...well unless you want them to be but your paying for that service. If I was buying new then yeah the dealer-distributor is in the loop. I agree with many here Cart prices are ridiculous there is no amount of engineering that can justify $20000 carts Really a car has way more engineering in it then any Cart or any other component for that mater how they can charge what they do is only because the wealthy have driven up the prices. One manufacturer said its easier to sell 6 to the wealthy then 60 to the rest for the same profit. If you want to see what it takes to build a cart there is an interesting video were AJ Van Den Hul takes you step by step through the whole process all through his micro scope was eye opening. its on youtube. |
@tastyfreeze.what homework are you going to do if you want to acquire a My Sonic Lab, as an example.... read the many reviews, talk to the many owners, listen at your friendly My Sonic Lab dealer, try one of their cartridges on your table...any other homework that you can enlighten us about regarding this particular line... and this line happens to be one of many that are similar in their distribution and availability. |
anyone who is losing big $$ on a whim like this, probably won’t be continuing to do that for too long, before the house gets foreclosed on...IMHO. I suspect no one purchasing kilo buck hi fi is in any risk of foreclosure. Now if on the other hand people leased high end hi fi! (sez I as a former Angeleno who was amazed at the cars everyone drove whether they could afford it or not) And personally I don’t think of it as a whim, more a learning experience and part of the fun of the hobby 🤪 And by the way, have you ever purchased high end furniture? Multi month lead times, crazy prices , and zero resale value ... puts audio to shame ... |
I’ve never auditioned any new High-End cartridges i have bought in the past, simply because local distributors always asking double price for everything that can be purchased online, and i don’t want to buy from them anyway. I’ve been disappointed comparing very expensive New High-End cartridges to less expensive carefully selected vintage high-end cartridges in my own system. Each time the difference is sound quality was not as big as the difference in price between new and vintage nos or even used. Later i discovered some amazing vintage cartridges, thanks to all contributors on this forum in MM thread. I am still looking for some rare gems to buy them, to try them, to learn more about this subject. They are all more or less affordable compared to overpriced new high-end cartridges. My limit is $1500 max, normally all my favorite vintage carts are under $1k (no matter MC, MI or MM) and i have already tried brand new high-end carts with price tag up to $5k. It was great experience, expensive, but very important experience to understand that my nirvana with phono cartridges can be reached with 1.5k budget estimated. I know it’s my old mantra, but it’s true. I have no idea why people spending $5-15k on carts to get hurt. Hope i will not jump in this category even in the next 15 years. As someone already said, there is nothing in cartridge engineering that should cost that much, really. |
Get a Shelter Harmony for ~$3600 from a Japanese importer like Audiocubes2 (yeah, gray market, but what good is a warranty on a cartridge?), and be happy. And I like Koetsu also, but I heard that Koetsu stopped distributing cartridges within Japan itself, so flying to Japan for Koetsu won't really get you a great deal. You should fly to Singapore instead, for that. |
I always find it amusing when we begin to pontificate on the economics of this business. Given how easy it is to produce high-end, boutique offerings for a limited market, the logistics around supporting the finicky retail consumer of said offerings, and the outrageous profit margins (both from the manufacturer and the retailer), I'll expect a flood of new cartridge offerings (and direct-to-consumer networks) from budding start-ups in the next few months. Can't wait!!! |
This is a perfectly normal and legitimate thread. The approach to that is a personal choice - some just buy, others just not, yet others buy many used one by one and then choose. There are few real dealers left. And if I can't audition cartridge I don't need dealers and distributors, I should be able to buy directly from manufacturers. Too many people collect money while doing little or nothing. |
@inna +1 But perhaps we do need to add that there is indeed a service that the dealer can bring to the table...and that is after sale service. In the case of the cartridge, i think if they set it up on the table and do the necessary alignment etc, then this service does indeed have value. I don't think any of us would disagree that this particular service has value. Whether that value extends to thousands of dollars is another question? |
There are trials and tribulations in acquiring and setting up a good system. There are trials and tribulations in selling and setting up a good system. The market size for high end analog is very small. Cartridges are subject to damage, quality of install, and compatibility with associated equipment. So yeah it's a tricky landscape. |
daveyf I agree with you, it is a tricky landscape ... But does it also explain the circumstances that I put in my OP?Frankly, I don't think so. Buying a phono cartridge needn't be a multi-year nightmare. It has certainly always been a rather pleasant process for me. As I suggested earlier in this thread, I think you need a dealer better suited to you. |
In reading the thread, I have tried to think of a better way to improve the buying process. I really like the idea of a trip to Japan for “free” to buy a cartridge! But probably not realistic for many. Putting aside comments on prices, I think reps should be supplied with a demo unit that can be sent out for trial. Manufacturers should provide the demo to the rep free of charge. The potential buyer would need to provide a security deposit equal to the retail price of the cartridge (yes, the entire price). It must be sent to, and installed by, a turntable tech approved by the rep. The tech's fee for this service is paid for by the potential buyer. The tech would attest that the cartridge was received in perfect condition. The approved tech would need to sign off that he had installed AND removed the cartridge and that there was no change in its condition from when installed and removed (photographic evidence of cantilever condition would be useful). If not, you bought the cartridge, even if it was a demo. There would need to be a time limit, say, 30 days, for the demo. Is the buyer shouldering a lot of the risk? Yes. But to me, this is an acceptable compromise to be able to try the cartridge out in YOUR system. If there is no approved tech in your area, you may be required to drive a considerable distance (two trips) but this comes with the territory of purchasing an incredibly delicate, expensive device. OP, would you consider such a service? If not, why? |
tangramca
That is a lot of infrastructure. I wonder at what retail cartridge price that could start and what markup would be needed? |
@tangramca, That is (literally) the only way to audition an individual component. I get a chuckle when people "audition" individual pieces of equipment at a dealer, a show, or in another member's home. Different people claim to audition different components of a system IN THE SAME SYSTEM. One person is "hearing" the speakers. Another is "hearing" the interconnects. Another is "hearing" the fuses. Yet the magic is due to the careful selection and interaction of all of the above. |
Why not drop the term "rip-off" and all its grammatical variants? It makes you sound too much like that other guy who thinks everything in his audio system is a rip-off. (I won't name names, but you know who I mean.) You could say that buying an expensive cartridge is a "crap shoot", instead. But if you buy a cartridge that "works" as advertised and end up not liking it so much, that is not the definition of a rip-off. That is called a learning experience. I own many cartridges that are not so great compared to other cartridges that I now prefer; it's part of the journey. Just don't make the same mistake twice. And above all, lighten up! This is a fun hobby. By the way, I did buy my Koetsu Urushi from a brick and mortar store in Tokyo. You will not find Koetsu cartridges, above their base level, in stock at any store in Tokyo, at least not in all the many stores that I have visited. I had to order the cartridge and pay for it, in person, in the presence of my son who speaks fluent Japanese, because the sales personnel usually speak zero English. I then had to wait two weeks for the store to order and receive the Urushi, which my son then had to send to me, because the stores will not ship outside Japan. And the total cost (including air fare and presumably a hotel room), if one were to visit Tokyo solely to buy a cartridge, is not a big savings vs buying the Urushi in the US. (And that's not why I visit Tokyo.) I would agree however that the US distributor does apparently take a big bite. |
@tangramca. I think what you proposed makes a lot of sense, and would think that any high end cartridge consumer would be pleased about this protocol. I have acquired the cartridge, so personally I am now done with this very unpleasant process...for the time being, Therefore according to Lewm, my “learning experience” is over for now. Why I had to be subjected to such a nasty “learning experience “ is one of the points of my thread. I also have to believe that this so called “learning experience “ is precisely why so many of my a’phile friends won’t touch a high end cartridge at any price...and instead elect to buy analog, wherein the whole package is sold to them....iow-table, arm and cartridge as one. Certainly not at the upper most echelon of analog, but great enough for them to not endure what I and others do to enhance our analog system....and enough for them to enjoy the experience. Thinking of this, perhaps this is why we are seeing more turntable manufacturers bundling the whole package..respected companies like Linn, Rega, EAT and others.. If so,If the high end cartridge manufacturer sees their biz drop due to this practice, they only have themselves to blame, imho. |
@soundermn. Remember, that the Japanese vendors are selling these cartridges at 30-40% less than here in the US, and they are selling them at RETAIL from their Stores! So, do you still think the US markup is 30-40%? i know the shipping cost to the US for such a large and heavy item is huge! oh, and here’s another thing we haven’t even touched upon, the dear US distributor gives discounted pricing to his dealer, depending on the volume sold and ordered....meaning that the smaller dealer has less chance to compete with the bigger dealer....again, imo, at the cost of the consumer! ( and of course the smaller dealer)...hmmm. |
@gibsonian Yes, it's a wonderful experience, LOL. Here's another wonderful cartridge story...and one that the US dealers can use for their case. A friend decided to buy a Benz LPS MR from the guy in China ( Good price). He gets it delivered ( yes, that's a good sign) and mounts it on his expensive rig. Shortly after he notices that the cantilever is missing??? So, the cartridge has destroyed one of his LP's and now is damaged. What to do?? No US warranty service or assistance, the factory is not interested ( or no longer in biz...depending on who you speak to) and the dealer in China...isn't an authorized dealer either...so in the bin the cart goes. ( Yes, I suppose Lindemann could rebuild it, but at what expense and so on!) Which is why IMO, buying grey market is such a very dubious option. As you say, gibsonian, Giddyup! |
If I owned a restaurant, I would say please don’t come to my restaurant. I cannot guarantee you will like the food. After you chew on it, I cannot take it back. Do you really think it makes sense for a US audio dealer to lend out very expensive cartridges for customers to try in their home systems? how do you think that would work out for the dealer? I cannot feel sorry for you. I especially cannot feel sorry for your friend who bought a Benz cartridge from China, for god’s sake. China! |
"SERENDIPITY"; that's my word for the day. It's when you fall down a hill, break your arm, but discover a pot of gold where you fell. I started with a Grado Platinum, traded up to a Grado Sonata, and immediately broke the stylus, on the brand new cartridge. Left with the option of no cartridge, start that crazy search, or trade up to the Grado Master 2; the choice was a "no brainer"; the broke Sonata was in the mail with a note requesting the Master 2. Years ago, I heard a Koetsu cause Carmen McRae to appear live in the room; since then I have desired a Koetsu, but the Grado Master 2, is the limit of my budget. Recently I've discovered I might be where I want to be and don't know it. I have to put on some of Carmen's records, and jog my memory as best I can. I just left my listening room where I jogged my memory, comparing the Koetsu to my Grado. (don't specifically remember which model Koetsu, but not the most expensive) First and foremost, you have to consider that the Koetsu was in a "high end salon", and it don't get no better than that; I watched those guys take hours to make minor adjustments. Carmen was just as present in my listening room as in that high end salon; the difference was that the salon was more "holographic", Carmen was projected farther out into the room. As I stated, that was in a high end salon, with a lot more than a Koetsu cartridge involved. Since the major difference could be attributed to the high end salon, and even then, my listening room is a satisfactory second; the direct comparison of Carmen's vocals, are equally present in both cases. The bottom line for me, is that after reading the posts on this thread, I am no longer lusting for a Koetsu. (below is a post from another thread) Well, I have actually owned both, in fact, I own both now, but the Black needs a retipping. I have the previous version of the Statement (the 2.5k one not the 3k one) and I will say that it actually sounds in the same realm as the Koetsu house sound, it is closer to that house sound than lower Grados. The Koetsu, being an MC, has a lovely midrange but its highs are sometimes etched out, not as natural as they should be (higher models of Koetsus improve this as well as providing more extension). The Grado has a sublime midrange and a top end that is never harsh, but is extended. The bass is generous and tight, never out of proportion with the other frequencies. I don't have much experience with carts, but from what I have heard the Grado is the best. It is also the most expensive I've had in my setup, 1k more than the Black. Price isn't everything but if I were to have 1600 and I could buy the Statement or the Black, I would go Statement. |
@lewm last time I looked, one isn’t asked to spend thousands of dollars at a restaurant. Therefore, your analogy falls down. Does it make sense for a dealer to lend very expensive cartridges for audition. Yes and No. The dealer who ended up with my business did exactly that...he let me try the cartridge with a short turn around and a full return policy if I didn’t like it. Essentially this sealed the deal for me..and allowed him to make the sale. Does it make sense to do this...it doesn’t if people are going to take advantage of that option, it sure does if the dealer can sell the returned cartridge as a demo unit or is willing to take the risk, knowing how serious the customer is,...some will, most won’t. Personally, I think something like what tangramca’s suggestion makes good sense. Otherwise, someone has to take the risk, and why should it always be the consumer? |
@daveyf Then why don’t you try wonderful japanese Miyajima cross ring cartridges offered on trial from Robyn Wyatt in USA ? Personally i don’t know of any other company who can give a customer such amazing opportunity. I hardly imagine a dealer who will give anyone a brand new Koetsu just for audition to end up with used Koetsu and lose money on it, just because a customer didn’t like the sound and returned it. Once a cartridge has been opened, mounted and used the price drop is at least 30% off. Do you think you’re special for the dealer just because you can buy (or return) one expensive cartridge ? Normally audition can be done at the listening room at the dealers place only. I believe any dealer can mount a cartridge for demonstration at his place, but this is one cartridge for all. P.S. I think @lewm is right. No one will oped a sealed boottle of $1000-5000 wine just to let you try a glass and refuse a deal. Why do you think you can do so with a brand new, sealed cartridge? I can’t imagine that you can get a bottle of $100-500 wine, to drink 30% of it and return it for full refund just because you don’t like it. |
@chakster I think you are very optimistic if you think that there are ANY dealers in the US who can demo all of the Koetsu line. Nevermind other top flite cartridges. ( or for that matter just one decent example of the line!)Most of these guys cannot even set up a cartridge , so to think they are demoing Koetsu’s isn’t happening. Unfortunately, one of the other pet peeves that I have with this industry right now...is the ludicrous aspect of the minuscule output that most of these cartridges put out. The Mijayima line is a perfect example of this issue, their cartridges feature flea output, requiring a SUT, or placing great strain on the upstream phono stage, particularly if it is a tube phono stage, like mine. Like i stated above, I don’t need advice on this issue, because there are a number of variables involved..and unlike many high end cartridge consumers, I am aware of them. I hate to tell the folks here how much Total ‘BS’ was given to me by the numerous dealers and manufacturers reps that I spoke to over the last few months. You ask if I think I am special...far from it, which apparently results in all of these same folks trying to convince me of their ‘BS’...did that tactic succeed with you? |
I agree that some dealers have no idea about the products they are selling, especially if you start asking technical questions. I’ve been in this situation before. But if you think you can’t audition Koetsu carts and won’t take a risk of buying a brand new Koetsu from Japan (for a much better price) then what do you want ? Do you really think this is the best cartridge in the world? Then why don’t you just buy it? Soundheight is the dealer in Japan and they do ship internationally. I've bought some carts from them, nice customer service. As i said there is a dealer in USA who offered their customers an amazing Miyajima cartridges on trial (some dealers are exceptionally good), which means a buyer can return Miyajima for full refund after trying it in his own system. The best offer i can only dream about, because i am not in the USA. You want all the dealers do the same ? I’m sure it will never happen. |
It is quite impractical for most dealers to offer a cartridge on a loaner basis, except, perhaps if the owner brings in the table for the cartridge to be mounted; there is just too much risk of damage with the average customer trying to mount and adjust a high end cartridge. My local dealer actually does loan out cartridges to his regular customers, but, that has to be something unusual. He has loaned out $6,000 + cartridges that are store demonstration cartridges (of course, a totally new cartridge would be out of the question). Lewm's analogy certainly DOES NOT fall down; if anything, it is FAR more unreasonable to expect a trial of something as dear as a top cartridge than an entree that is at a fraction of the cost. It is just unfortunately the case that one has to take a bit of a risk of not being happy with the sound when buying expensive cartridges. I have a cartridge with a .30 Mv output specification. It is dead quiet with my phonostage which is a tube unit with a built in SUT. I haven't tried a cartridge with an extremely low output, but, I have friends who had trouble with noise with such cartridges so I am not that inclined to go with anything that has an even lower output. The setups I've heard with Koetsu's have never had problems with noise. There are two basic Koetsu sonic signatures--the warmer, more "woody" sound of the Urushi and Rosewood type of cartridge, and the faster, slightly leaner sound of the stone bodied cartridge. I've heard both types in the same system (though not my own system). I think both lines sound quite good. Of course it is possible that neither cartridge might perfectly suit any given listener, but, I don't know of too many people who totally hate both types of Koetsu cartridges. |
I still think high end cartridge manufacturers should be prepared to provide demo carts in their main markets. Huge leap of faith purchasing a $5K cartridge without hearing it in your system first. Let’s face it: a $5K cartridge is a luxury good. There should be a level of customer service commensurate with it being a luxury good. Unfortunately there will always be people who would take advantage of this service, typically spoiling it for those who do not. IMHO, the cartridge is only second to the speakers (setting aside room) in influencing the sound of an analog system. It is a very important purchase that is very difficult to make in a properly informed way with the current accepted poor level of service the industry provides to its customers. |
Actually regarding output, I have found that I tend to enjoy cartridges with lower outputs. If there is a model with both generally the one with the lower output is more well regarded. This is because there are less turns on the coil so you get a more pure sound. You do need a good phono stage however. |
@larryi so what makes you think that the rep, like the one for Miyajima, who is ok with this policy...of return, is good;and yet it’s also ok for others not to be. Thereby, foisting the risk back onto the consumer. The Miyajima dealer is IMO, offering a true service to their customer..the others..well not so much. Sorry, but the analogy of the restaurant makes no sense to me. Plus, there are numerous restauarants who in fact do offer a taste of the food that they serve, prior to order. While, I agree that listening to a specific cartridge in the dealers system would be a good start, it really isn’t anything more than a data point in regards to what the cartridge might sound like in your own system. You are doing nothing more than assuming what you started about Koetsu’s SQ would apply, if one was inserted into your own system and room. I state this since you admit that you haven’t actually listened to one of these cartridges in your own system. That assumption may prove to be correct, but you will never know until you have taken that action. If the results are 180% away from what you expected, you would have an unpleasant surprise, no?? |
