@br3098
Did you actually read my OP. Seems not, because we are talking about cartridges here and not other gear!
Saying these cartridges are 'readily available' is a joke. Tells me that you haven't been cartridge shopping recently, at least for anything above $500-!
Plus, the option of hearing the cartridges that I am referring to in the dealers' showroom is basically non existent. So, let's not be calling people a bunch of whiny b1tches if you are clueless about where they are coming from. |
@yogiboy
Looking at the needle doctor return policy that you posted, i noticed some very interesting verbiage about what is excluded...would seem to me to cover cartridges ( they say 'all other one time use products'...is that a cartridge??) Special orders ( probably most Koetsu's etc) Still risky IMO. Have you, or anybody that you know, actually taken advantage of this policy?
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@analogluvr
The Van Den Hul you brought from overseas, did you happen to check on the serial number as to the age and specific model that it was?
Not saying that the US dealers aren't applying an enormous markup, just that you may not be getting what you think you are from these grey market vendors. If you are ok with that, so be it. |
@orpheus10
Sorry, but you would be asking for trouble by doing what you suggest. IMHO, IF you buy a cartridge like a Koetsu on somebody's recommendation or a review ( regardless of the amount of research you have done)-- you are taking a BIG risk. Here's why, you mount the cartridge on your arm, you listen...and oh shoot, the thing sounds like sh---t. what now? Sell it with x number of hours on it at a huge discount, or maybe keep it and start to change out your ancillary gear...in a long and costly voyage to try and get something that will play nice with it? You tell me...
BTW, I still am curious why this one vendor in China seems to have a 'lock' on selling Benz's...and it's not 2juki; although he is on this forum. ( Sells other high end cartridges at considerable discounts too...way less than authorized dealers?). But good luck to you if you buy from him and have a problem!
@analogluvr
The Van Den Hul dealers in the US claim that the vendor in the Netherlands is NOT selling you a new Van Den Hul! Instead it is a very used model that has been 'refurbished' and freshened up. The serial number on the box will tell you the age....and the age of these cartridges is anything BUT recent!!
...and of course IF you buy one of these, they are NOT covered under the warranty in the US. ( Therefore NO dealer support).
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Firstly, please don’t think I am looking for advice in this thread. I know exactly what I’m doing in this hobby... you get that way after about forty years in it.
What the point of my OP was... and is.: is that I think it is about time someone disclosed the various issues and other problems associated with acquiring a top flite cartridge in the US.
OTOH, since many of you seem to have no problem with being completely ripped off in this endeavor, please disregard my thread. |
@br3098
great post..:0(, so that I understand your points..
its no problem for you to blow thousands of your ‘hard earned’ dollars on a POS cartridge, just so long as your friendly local dealer had given it their blessing. If it turned out you blew your money, well no biggie as that’s what real men do in this hobby, am I reading your post right, Lmao.
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@analogluvr Thank you, it seems that there are a number of posters here who see nothing wrong with the current status quo.
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@br3098
Given your last post, I can see that you have absolutely no clue as to what the high end cartridge consumer is faced with.
@dgarretson
I think this gives one a very generic and basic starting point. I don’t know about you, but I am VERY uncomfortable about dropping thousands of $$ on a cartridge, simply because I heard it at a show once and that was on unfamiliar gear and in an unfamiliar setting. There are numerous variables with these cartridges that need to be considered, and not the least is how it interacts ( has synergy) with your table and arm. What are the odds that the demo you heard at a show is utilizing the same table and arm as you are?
Sorry to break your illusion, but I have heard the Lyra Etna and the ART 9 in a familiar system, to my ears, there was really no comparison...the Etna was in a different league all together...as it should be for the price difference.
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@br3098 i believe it’s old farts like u who give millennials their ammunition.
something to maybe think about.... |
@tastyfreeze.what homework are you going to do if you want to acquire a My Sonic Lab, as an example....
read the many reviews, talk to the many owners, listen at your friendly My Sonic Lab dealer, try one of their cartridges on your table...any other homework that you can enlighten us about regarding this particular line...
and this line happens to be one of many that are similar in their distribution and availability. |
@br3098, Typical,whenever the poster cannot come up with a reasonable or logical response, out comes the ‘troll’ word.Pathetic.
@tablejockey yes, that is what typically occurs in this cartridge buying experience, you take a leap of faith and hope for the best...is that situation really acceptable to you when acquiring a multi thousand dollar cartridge? Remember, the high end cartridge market is going to be seeing cartridges that are priced above $20k in no time. IMO, and I know I’m in the minority here, but anyone who is losing big $$ on a whim like this, probably won’t be continuing to do that for too long, before the house gets foreclosed on...IMHO.
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@solypsa. I agree with you, it is a tricky landscape. Perhaps this goes some way to explain why the market size for high end analog is very small. But does it also explain the circumstances that I put in my OP? |
@inna
+1
But perhaps we do need to add that there is indeed a service that the dealer can bring to the table...and that is after sale service. In the case of the cartridge, i think if they set it up on the table and do the necessary alignment etc, then this service does indeed have value. I don't think any of us would disagree that this particular service has value.
Whether that value extends to thousands of dollars is another question? |
@tangramca. I think what you proposed makes a lot of sense, and would think that any high end cartridge consumer would be pleased about this protocol.
I have acquired the cartridge, so personally I am now done with this very unpleasant process...for the time being, Therefore according to Lewm, my “learning experience” is over for now. Why I had to be subjected to such a nasty “learning experience “ is one of the points of my thread. I also have to believe that this so called “learning experience “ is precisely why so many of my a’phile friends won’t touch a high end cartridge at any price...and instead elect to buy analog, wherein the whole package is sold to them....iow-table, arm and cartridge as one. Certainly not at the upper most echelon of analog, but great enough for them to not endure what I and others do to enhance our analog system....and enough for them to enjoy the experience. Thinking of this, perhaps this is why we are seeing more turntable manufacturers bundling the whole package..respected companies like Linn, Rega, EAT and others..
If so,If the high end cartridge manufacturer sees their biz drop due to this practice, they only have themselves to blame, imho. |
@gibsonian
Yes, it's a wonderful experience, LOL.
Here's another wonderful cartridge story...and one that the US dealers can use for their case. A friend decided to buy a Benz LPS MR from the guy in China ( Good price). He gets it delivered ( yes, that's a good sign) and mounts it on his expensive rig. Shortly after he notices that the cantilever is missing??? So, the cartridge has destroyed one of his LP's and now is damaged. What to do?? No US warranty service or assistance, the factory is not interested ( or no longer in biz...depending on who you speak to) and the dealer in China...isn't an authorized dealer either...so in the bin the cart goes. ( Yes, I suppose Lindemann could rebuild it, but at what expense and so on!) Which is why IMO, buying grey market is such a very dubious option.
As you say, gibsonian, Giddyup! |
@soundermn. Remember, that the Japanese vendors are selling these cartridges at 30-40% less than here in the US, and they are selling them at RETAIL from their Stores! So, do you still think the US markup is 30-40%?
i know the shipping cost to the US for such a large and heavy item is huge!
oh, and here’s another thing we haven’t even touched upon, the dear US distributor gives discounted pricing to his dealer, depending on the volume sold and ordered....meaning that the smaller dealer has less chance to compete with the bigger dealer....again, imo, at the cost of the consumer! ( and of course the smaller dealer)...hmmm. |
@lewm last time I looked, one isn’t asked to spend thousands of dollars at a restaurant. Therefore, your analogy falls down.
Does it make sense for a dealer to lend very expensive cartridges for audition. Yes and No. The dealer who ended up with my business did exactly that...he let me try the cartridge with a short turn around and a full return policy if I didn’t like it. Essentially this sealed the deal for me..and allowed him to make the sale.
Does it make sense to do this...it doesn’t if people are going to take advantage of that option, it sure does if the dealer can sell the returned cartridge as a demo unit or is willing to take the risk, knowing how serious the customer is,...some will, most won’t.
Personally, I think something like what tangramca’s suggestion makes good sense. Otherwise, someone has to take the risk, and why should it always be the consumer? |
@tangramca.
Again, +1000
i totally agree with you on all points. |
Just to be clear, I’m not just referring to the Koetsu line, but to most other top flite cartridges as well. Same issues apply to them all, IME.
@schubert... interesting point you make. |
@jperry What are you talking about? I guess if you think all cartridges sound great in all circumstances, then sure. Have you heard about something called cartridge compliance...? among numerous other requirements than can give varying results if something is incorrect....i guess not in your experience, right? |
@larryi You don’t think that these dealers and reps have enough margin to offer what Tangramca has suggested? Really! |
@chakster I think you are very optimistic if you think that there are ANY dealers in the US who can demo all of the Koetsu line. Nevermind other top flite cartridges. ( or for that matter just one decent example of the line!)Most of these guys cannot even set up a cartridge , so to think they are demoing Koetsu’s isn’t happening.
Unfortunately, one of the other pet peeves that I have with this industry right now...is the ludicrous aspect of the minuscule output that most of these cartridges put out. The Mijayima line is a perfect example of this issue, their cartridges feature flea output, requiring a SUT, or placing great strain on the upstream phono stage, particularly if it is a tube phono stage, like mine.
Like i stated above, I don’t need advice on this issue, because there are a number of variables involved..and unlike many high end cartridge consumers, I am aware of them.
I hate to tell the folks here how much Total ‘BS’ was given to me by the numerous dealers and manufacturers reps that I spoke to over the last few months.
You ask if I think I am special...far from it, which apparently results in all of these same folks trying to convince me of their ‘BS’...did that tactic succeed with you? |
@larryi so what makes you think that the rep, like the one for Miyajima, who is ok with this policy...of return, is good;and yet it’s also ok for others not to be. Thereby, foisting the risk back onto the consumer. The Miyajima dealer is IMO, offering a true service to their customer..the others..well not so much.
Sorry, but the analogy of the restaurant makes no sense to me. Plus, there are numerous restauarants who in fact do offer a taste of the food that they serve, prior to order.
While, I agree that listening to a specific cartridge in the dealers system would be a good start, it really isn’t anything more than a data point in regards to what the cartridge might sound like in your own system. You are doing nothing more than assuming what you started about Koetsu’s SQ would apply, if one was inserted into your own system and room. I state this since you admit that you haven’t actually listened to one of these cartridges in your own system. That assumption may prove to be correct, but you will never know until you have taken that action.
If the results are 180% away from what you expected, you would have an unpleasant surprise, no?? |
@wcfeil. Obviously 180 degrees |
@chakster , I’ll play along, what makes you think that the old vintage cartridge has it all over the typical $15k current cartridge? |
@chakster Your preference for vintage cartridges is interesting. Personally, I have absolutely zero interest in them regardless of the price, or the reputation.
Here’s one reason why, I have a very good a’phile friend who about a year ago decided he wanted to mount several so called ’ top condition’ vintage cartridges on his removable headshell arm and listen to see how..and if, he preferred the old models to his near new Lyra Atlas.
After some experimentation with the vintage ( and in some cases NOS ) models he felt that there were some differences between his Atlas and the SPU’s etc., but not enough to warrant keeping the older models...
So, he re-mounted his Atlas, and to his horror, the valuable and clean vinyl that he had used to demo the vintage models was now extremely noisy with the Atlas...as essentially he had ruined his LP’s!! Not my idea of fun, but if you think this is a cool result, be my guest. |
@tangramca Another post that I totally agree with. The dealers like the current situation with high end cartridges just fine, thank you very much. Why wouldn’t they? After all, no inventory to stock, easy to ship with minimal expense, no return policies, very unlikely repair and after sale hassles, huge margins, probability that the unit will be damaged in the future....how many of the high end cartridges actually come with a stylus guard? --leading to another sale, no easy repair for the consumer...another large profit center; and a simple ordering process for them....
No wonder, IMHO, that there has been some considerable push-back here, and on other threads/forums, when this nice ’golden goose’ has been threatened! Whining, only from people that clearly have something to lose--and that’s become VERY obvious. |
You guys just go on in your vintage cartridge bliss, like I said, they are absolutely NOT for me. My friend didn’t actually hear the damage until he went back to the Atlas...are you sure you haven’t already done the damage and have not heard it yet?..possibly due to the fact that the old vintage cartridge isn’t allowing for that kind of resolution and transparency!
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@br3098 It appears to me that you are constantly confusing the difference between cartridges and other gear. We are ONLY talking about cartridges here...not amps, not digital gear, not speakers etc., All of these items can be easily demo’ed in the consumers system, and returned with no issue if incompatible.
IMO, the Rolex example works reasonably well, because it is a high priced small item, one that has a large margin built in- and one that is also subject to considerable devaluation...( i don’t know what makes you think that all Rolex’s have appreciation, LOL. Next time you buy a Rolex, wear it for a few weeks or months and then see how much your friendly Rolex dealer is willing to give you if you want a return, LMAO) Here’s the difference between a Rolex and a high priced cartridge ( and where the analogy fails,IMO)...you absolutely know what you are getting with a Rolex the minute you try it on ( plus the dealer carries stock of Rolex's...usually!), not so with the various high end cartridges--because trying it on isn’t an OPTION! |
@cleeds What you say about some speakers/amps is very true, but auditioning them in your system is not a problem for most of the dealers that I have experience with. Primary reason is that they are not a wear item like a cartridge, plus the dealers seem to have no problem stocking/re-stocking these pieces, or getting them if necessary!
I don’t know where you shop, but can you really tell me that your dealer carries the full line of Koetsu,VDH, MSL’s, Air Tight’s Lyra etc.,? I serially doubt that they carry just one of these lines...and then most likely just one cartridge on demo.. if that.
A better dealer? I’m open to suggestions in the S.Calif area? Remember that’s where I live- and I have a fair amount of experience with most (all?) of these folks.
Also, I have absolutely NO problem with the dealer who can give me sales support and accurate information making a profit...NONE. This is why i ended up buying my new cartridge from just such a person...and not at a considerable discount online!
I think it might be beneficial if you re-read my OP, as this is where the whole thread is based. Not on attempting to discover where the good dealers are. ( Although IF your dealer doesn’t follow the standard biz practices that we all are subject to...it would seem here in the US, and abroad...well certainly in Canada...myself--and I suspect most others, would like to know who these folks are..and IF they are in the US?) |
I just finished reading the reviews of the Koetsu Onyx Platinum and the Rosewood Signature Platinum along with the MSL eminent cartridge in the latest issue of Stereophile. Problem for me, and this is possibly because I have a pretty good idea of the ancillary gear that the reviews utilized in these reviews, is that unfortunately, none of it goes any way to show how very colored and warm these cartridges are...with the possible exception of the MSL. But if one were to just read these reviews and then make a buying decision based on them, I personally believe that a buyer looking for a resolved and fast cartridge would be in for a shock....just based on the glowing Hyperbole filled reviews.
@nrenter you happen to be one of the dealers that are selling these cartridges? Because your clear bias is showing through loud and clear! I can tell this, you sir have never been in a buying position with a very expensive cartridge under consideration. Otherwise I seriously doubt your snarky attitude would be so prevalent.
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@halcro. Actually,I believe he played just two records with the Atlas before he noticed the problem....but there were several that were now very noisy that were not that way before.
OTOH, I can tell you’re not that concerned about your vinyl...so be it. |
@lewm,
I suppose you are going to tell us that the old vintage cartridges never wear out, none of them suffer suspension collapse and damage/wear to the stylus....right. Therefore, playing them on your most prized and collectible vinyl is perfectly safe....you do that. I’ll pass on this idea...
My a’phile friend destroyed thousands of dollars of great and collectible Albums....I have no intention of following in his footsteps.
I say to you...go for it, lol. |
@orpheus10 No, I did not end up with the Koetsu. The only Koetsu’s in my budget are probably too warm for my system. Although I may add one in the future. I also question whether they are that resolving --compared to a more modern design, like a Lyra, for instance. You mentioned ’hyper resolving’ leading to a lean presentation. I have no way of knowing this unless I hear the particular cartridge in my system, wouldn’t the same apply to all of us? Or to put it another way, perhaps a ’hyper resolved’ cartridge is exactly what one needs in one system and precisely what one does not in another. The lean potential could be totally system dependent, how would we know?
Unfortunately, to really know the answer to these questions is one of the reasons why I started this thread...
The theory is what I stated above, the reality---is anybody’s guess!
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@chakster
It is clear to me that you have adoration for old cartridges that have a specific type of sound. Good for you.
However, when you motion that my friend must have done something wrong or had a faulty cartridge, you are right...what he did wrong was to play the vintage model in the first place! You fail to see why any of these models can do harm...to that I say there may be numerous ways. Here's just one I can think of, the stylus was worn and damaged the groove ( oh, you say, we can have that checked by a 'professional'! What a joke! I had exactly that done years ago with a Kiseki I used to own, pro tells me it looks fine...problem was that he had NO clue as to what the original stylus shape should look like and therefore what a damaged facet looked like either! Do you really believe most of these guys have a clue about this aspect, because I don't). Remember also that a number of vintage models have different shapes of the stylus, some of which could be considered as close to cutters today! You mention cutting lathes, what is their main purpose...to cut grooves! Perhaps you don't believe this, but it takes just one play of a record to do irreparable damage to the groove....you want to take that risk with those old beauties! Like i said before, go for it!
Now back to the original topic, I'm done on this subject. |
@rauliruegasi have been in this hobby for decades, not that that makes me an expert...as so many on this thread consider themselves.
Unfortunately, to my ears, the various cartridges out there have VERY distinct sounds...some of which I feel are more listenable than others, irrespective of price. Some of the models sound too warm, some are too bright, some are veiled and non resolving. Do they all sound good, as you say, not to my ears, to some of these other experts, I’m sure they do.
Here’s my point, I fail to see why a cartridge consumer has to take a financial risk by buying one of these expensive cartridges when all the dealers have to do is stock them and display them....which IME almost none do, and secondly have a demo model available for home usage. Now, if we were discussing the old days when the best cartridge were $200 or thereabouts, that’s a different matter, today we are talking tens of thousands of $$’s,...which to some folks is peanuts, but I suspect like you stated to a whole bunch...it isn’t. (I think you actually included yourself in this category).
Therefore, I am attempting to come up with solutions to the way these cartridges are sold and marketed....which may be a futile effort, based on several of the ‘no problem, I love the status quo’ responses that I am seeing. ( which, frankly, was exactly what I was expecting here).
If the status quo doesn’t bother you, then it’s all good. |
@pingvin, you bring up an excellent point. The type of arm and the table will certainly have a lot to do with the result of changing the cartridge. I haven’t even mentioned the varying parameters that one needs to consider in buying one of these cartridges...
the output level, the compliance of the arm, the ability of the arm to adjust the variables that some cartridges require...ie VTF, VTA,Azimuth SRA etc. and the ability of the cartridge to be fitted into the head shell...( yes, some won’t work on various head shell designs)...and other variables....the phono cabling, the tonearm cabling and so forth. IME, if you get these items wrong, you are going to get a different sound out of the particular cartridge in question....some cartridges more than others.
You state demo with your own table, unfortunately that is where one of the issues lie...almost impossible to do that.
@inna. I like where you are coming from. I would very much like to see the reaction of some of these guys if ( and that’s a big if) they had gone out and a) bought one of these pricey high end cartridges, without auditioning it first...and based on just some review, had it installed in their arm...then listened to it sound like Sh—-t! I bet these same guys would then be screaming to the rafters...bunch of hypocrites.imo.
Oh,instead they are all going to tell me b) that this is what big boys do...and losing thousands of $$’s is no big deal, that’s all part of the game, lol.
What do you think they will do...a or b? |
@rauliruegas Firstly, I am not as convinced as you, or some others on this thread, that this issue cannot be 'fixed' or at least made a lot better than what the current state is. Secondly, I don't know about you, but I happen to think that 'blindly' buying ANY gear in our hobby is far from ideal, and will ultimately lead to major disappointments; regardless of how much 'experience' you think you have! Thirdly, as I posted before, I don't happen to think that all top flite cartridges sound good...to my ears there are some that i have heard that I wouldn't give you $5- for...never mind the ridiculous price being asked! Right now, there is a lot of chatter about one of these designs that has a major problem with sibilance in the high frequencies, so much so that there are consumers who are beginning to very much regret its purchase ( and no, I won't be disclosing which model it is). It is becoming clear to these folks that this particular design is deeply flawed from a technical perspective.
Problem is, what do these very same consumers now do with this cartridge, sell it into the used market at a huge discount is the answer.
So, yes we can all take it or leave it and live happy with our choice, or in the instance I pointed out above...live unhappily with our choice.
I hope the translation of this post to you makes sense. |
@edgewear. Very interesting post, and one that I basically concur with. OTOH, are you suggesting that because the system is broken, that there is no need to try and fix it? If we don’t start somewhere, then the status quo remains. Now, this situation is maybe what the majority want, and I’m sure it works just fine for most of the dealers ( you aren’t one...or are you?). If that is the case, then so be it; but I can tell you my points in my OP still stand....and I strongly suspect for many folks this situation is not acceptable. Live with it, sure we could, but the question might become....why do we have to? |
@ethiessen1. All good points. I have to believe that as the price increases with these cartridges, so do the margins. It would therefore seem highly appropriate to me that the manufacturers should incorporate some kind of program to allow home auditioning.
As you can see, so far in this thread, most people seem to believe that isn’t possible, but I think it’s a cop out on the manufacturers behalf, and possibly the dealers also.
Like i stated, the dealer that ultimately received my business allowed for a home audition, and was very generous with the terms.
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@alwynlarryv Your post made me laugh out loud! Are you certain that these folks are doing this! Seems that you are, LOL.
Let's not talk about margins here....as lewm stated, well maybe we should just a little- as this is my thread...
Let me state again what one of my good friends, who also happens to be a well known a'phile reveiwer/writer stated a few years ago about a lot of audio cables....the mark up there is ONLY 800%!! Which means that the rest of audio industry is trying their best to catch up asap, LMAO!
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@herman I have two questions for you...is there any such thing as a 'rip off' in your world?- and if so...what does that consist of to you? |
@herman I guess we will have to agree to disagree. In my books IF someone pulls the wool over your eyes, then that is a rip off! How often do you believe that the seller’s of these Japanese cartridges disclose the fact that they are readily available in the Japanese market for 1/2 or less of what they are asking here in the States?
What you are describing as a rip off, sounds like fraud to me. |
@dgarretson says he who works for big pharma. |
@herman so if I am able to buy the very same cartridge at retail for 1/2 the price in Japan and the US dealer is asking for twice that price here in the states, having shipped over the cartridge at some enormous shipping price,(if you believe that) that doesn’t strike you as a rip off! Plus, that’s assuming the distributor here is paying retail in Japan, which they may not be... it could be wholesale there.
i just question where your comfort level lies with this stuff, but I now have an idea. |
@br3098 Sure, Mr. Dealer you can always start your own thread about how easy it is to sell high priced cartridges to less than sophisticated folks who are only too happy to buy anything from you...so long as the price is higher than what their neighbor paid! No reason to come back here again. |
@harrylavo Very NICE post. Thank you for not posting the usual drivel about why are we discussing this subject etc.,
I also read extensively HP’s work. He was one of the very few writers who generally called it as he heard it, as such I think you could put some reliance on his review. Assuming, of course, that you tended to agree with his aural thoughts and discoveries ( which I did). Unfortunately, I think there were two problems in later year with this approach, one of which you mentioned. That first problem was that as time went by, HP tended to rely on his memory, which as you pointed out wasn’t a great way to go. The other problem, which you didn’t mention, is that he was getting the results that he did with matching to certain gear, if there was a synergy, he didn’t report on the synergy aspect, only on the result of the particular piece in question ( which IMO is ok). However, the risk of a non synergistic alliance was still a factor, as it is today! Today, I think the aspect of synergy with the ancillary gear is more important than ever, and will show its ugly head quicker if you get it wrong. That, plus the fact that the writings of people like MF are, at least IME, not anywhere near as reliable in regards to their findings as HP.
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@fleschleri am replacing my 21 year old Benz Ruby 2, and if it were possible to have upgraded in the Benz line, I would have. Unfortunately, I am told that Benz is once again, no more!
This would have made my selection process a lot easier. Nonetheless, the only vestiges of these cartridges seemingly now lies in the hands of one Chinese vendor...who is selling grey market. |
@mulveling I believe that not only has Benz micro ceased production, but so has Transfiguration! |
