Chinese seller 2juki you have mentioned sells only grey market products, you will not get a warranty from the manufacturers on products purchased from him, never. You can only pretend to protect yourself under paypal buyer’s protection if you buy from him on ebay. Official distributors of brand new High-End cartridges who does not have their own demo at their showrooms must be avoided, the way they do business is not right. Look at the Miyajima distribution in USA, Robyn Wayatt has offered trial on Miyajima cartridges only few years ago. Not sure about the situation right now, but you can ask him. Moyajima Kansui must be amazing cartridge at your price range. Miyajima cartridge can be auditionone at NYC showroom of Oswalds Mill Audio.
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The real nightmare is when you or somebody else accidentally destroying a cantilever of the most expensive cartridge.
But choosing a new cartridge is not a problem at all. |
I’ve never auditioned any new High-End cartridges i have bought in the past, simply because local distributors always asking double price for everything that can be purchased online, and i don’t want to buy from them anyway.
I’ve been disappointed comparing very expensive New High-End cartridges to less expensive carefully selected vintage high-end cartridges in my own system. Each time the difference is sound quality was not as big as the difference in price between new and vintage nos or even used.
Later i discovered some amazing vintage cartridges, thanks to all contributors on this forum in MM thread. I am still looking for some rare gems to buy them, to try them, to learn more about this subject. They are all more or less affordable compared to overpriced new high-end cartridges. My limit is $1500 max, normally all my favorite vintage carts are under $1k (no matter MC, MI or MM) and i have already tried brand new high-end carts with price tag up to $5k. It was great experience, expensive, but very important experience to understand that my nirvana with phono cartridges can be reached with 1.5k budget estimated.
I know it’s my old mantra, but it’s true.
I have no idea why people spending $5-15k on carts to get hurt.
Hope i will not jump in this category even in the next 15 years.
As someone already said, there is nothing in cartridge engineering that should cost that much, really.
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@daveyf Then why don’t you try wonderful japanese Miyajima cross ring cartridges offered on trial from Robyn Wyatt in USA ? Personally i don’t know of any other company who can give a customer such amazing opportunity. I hardly imagine a dealer who will give anyone a brand new Koetsu just for audition to end up with used Koetsu and lose money on it, just because a customer didn’t like the sound and returned it. Once a cartridge has been opened, mounted and used the price drop is at least 30% off. Do you think you’re special for the dealer just because you can buy (or return) one expensive cartridge ? Normally audition can be done at the listening room at the dealers place only. I believe any dealer can mount a cartridge for demonstration at his place, but this is one cartridge for all. P.S. I think @lewm is right. No one will oped a sealed boottle of $1000-5000 wine just to let you try a glass and refuse a deal. Why do you think you can do so with a brand new, sealed cartridge? I can’t imagine that you can get a bottle of $100-500 wine, to drink 30% of it and return it for full refund just because you don’t like it. |
I agree that some dealers have no idea about the products they are selling, especially if you start asking technical questions. I’ve been in this situation before.
But if you think you can’t audition Koetsu carts and won’t take a risk of buying a brand new Koetsu from Japan (for a much better price) then what do you want ? Do you really think this is the best cartridge in the world? Then why don’t you just buy it? Soundheight is the dealer in Japan and they do ship internationally. I've bought some carts from them, nice customer service.
As i said there is a dealer in USA who offered their customers an amazing Miyajima cartridges on trial (some dealers are exceptionally good), which means a buyer can return Miyajima for full refund after trying it in his own system. The best offer i can only dream about, because i am not in the USA.
You want all the dealers do the same ? I’m sure it will never happen. |
It would nice to walk in a store that can demo some of the most expensive modern cartridges in their system, require an audition, and bring some of the best vintage cartridges with us. Listen to a $15k modern cartridge on removable headshell, then mount some of the best rare vintage gems for less than $1.5k... And then to see a dealers face when $15k cartridge will be creamed by those vintage gems designed 30 years ago. |
@daveyf my personal experience, but i only compared my best vintage MM/MI/MC carts from the 70s/80s to the $5k modern LOMC i must admit, i am not crazy to buy $15k cartridges. But i’ve bought $3-5k modern High-End LOMC carts myself (all brand new), never asked for a free audition, so this is my personal experience in my home system. I think you will cry, sorry The only problem is that exceptional vintage MM and MC are very rare and not easy to find in NOS condition nowadays. My techniques are different than yours. I can only buy cartridges and after a years of trying many of them i can say that i don’t need even $5k carts, i think i already explained in this post earlier. Diamond cantilevers - no problem Hollow pipe Boron Cantilevers - no problem The lowest effective moving tip mass - no problem The best stylus profile ever - no problem True Moving Coil ( Air Core) - no problem ...And many more unique features not available today anymore. (all pictures made by me) This is all invented in the 70s and improved in the 80s to the maximum level in my opinion. All these and many more for under $1.5k in NOS condition. Do we need a $15k cartridge? No i don’t. Do i need to deal with distributor? No i don’t. Koetsu ? No thanks. Fidelity-Research FR-7fz all the way Good luck with your search. |
@daveyf
Your preference for vintage cartridges is interesting. Personally, I have absolutely zero interest in them regardless of the price, or the reputation.
Here’s one reason why, I have a very good a’phile friend who about a year ago decided he wanted to mount several so called ’ top condition’ vintage cartridges on his removable headshell arm and listen to see how..and if, he preferred the old models to his near new Lyra Atlas.
I like my vintage cartridges better than my ex ZYX Premium 4D SB - that was the most expensive modern High-End LOMC that i ever had and while it was a good cartridge (brand new from authorized US dealer), but for 5 times higher retail price than equal or even better vintage performers. I believe our @halcro compared his nice vintage carts to Lyra and many more morern LOMC and posted about it on audiogon in another thread. |
@daveyf I suppose you are going to tell us that the old vintage cartridges never wear out, none of them suffer suspension collapse and damage/wear to the stylus....right. The lifespan of the best diamonds is up to 1500 hrs at least, MicroLine and related Line Contact or MicroRidge diamonds invented long time ago. The best profiles to save the records if the set-up is correct. Minimum record wear! Who’s buyin vintage cartridges with worn needles? Maybe your friend has been cheated by the seller, but any vintage cartridge can be shipped for stylus inspection for about $40 to professionals. And while the old Koetsu is terribly made cartridge, i will give you an example of the vintage LOMC that NEVER has had a problem with suspension, it’s Fidelity-Research FR-7fz (or lower FR-7f series). Simply learn more about FR carts here. And do yourself a favour check this out - you will find a direct comparison between FR and different Koetsu. Some vintage carts (from particular brands) indeed have serious problem with suspension, but not all vintage carts. And actually it’s easy to check prior to buyin them by requesting a pictures from the seller. Honest sellers also made comments about suspension condition. And finally what’s the damage? Maybe you prefer to spend $5k on a brand new cartridge that you don’t like (or not involving to your ears)? |
@daveyf possibly due to the fact that the old vintage cartridge isn’t allowing for that kind of resolution and transparency! You must be kidding? They are at least equal (to be politically correct) to everything modern including $3-5K ZYX, Lyra, Ortofon and many other cartridges we have already compared to the best vintage ones. Some of us prefers MM/MI over MC. They are absolutely neutral and frequency response is flat over entire range. Your friend might have a worn/used average cartridge. We’re talking about some exceptionally good vintage cartridges, not about those carts that you can easily buy today, they are rare and people hunting for them. Also can you imagine that vintage cartridge can be NOS (New Old Stock, with intact diamond) ? How can you damage anything with it? Maybe your friend’s knowledge about vintage cartridges is very low, who knows, you never mentioned which particular cartridge are you talking about. Some killer vintage cartridges does not hand made in garage like today’s high-end carts from a very small manufacturers, but they came from industry giants like Technics/Matsishita Victor/JVC, Sony... etc with cost no object budgets utilized unique know-how in their flagship models back in the 70s/80s. The best recording techniques came from the same era, the best analog studio equipment, simply unbeatable til today. Actually some vinyl recorded earlier in the 50s and 60s are superb compared to the modern digital crap. Best studios still using disc cutting lathe machines from the same era! Studio tape machines from that, microphones from that era and many many more equipment. Why do you think a cartridge is an exception? I just don’t get the logic. Maybe it’s not for you personally, but please don’t full people with that crap. Those guys are pretty smart if they know how to sell a $5-20k cartridges today, but do you believe they are so much better, why ? You can comment only after you will compare some of them, but seems like you have another problem (you can’t audition modern high-end cartridges prior to buying, oops). |
@daveyf Would you like to tell us what is your favorite top 5 cartridges? Something that you really enjoyed in your system over the years and would recommend to others. I wonder which stylus profile is safe for you and your records? Thanks
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It sounds like a joke when a buyer of $5-15000 cartridge can't even mount it himself. If a buyer have zero experience with cheaper cartridges then why this buyer is looking for such expensive toys ? It's absurd. |
Consider a cartridge by Hana; they are said to be outstanding and for petite cash.
Hanna made by Excel Sound in Japan, this is an old OEM manufacturer, Mr.Fremer visited them and made a video, watch it here. |
@daveyf
so if I am able to buy the very same cartridge at retail for 1/2 the price in Japan and the US dealer is asking for twice that price here in the states, having shipped over the cartridge at some enormous shipping price,(if you believe that) that doesn’t strike you as a rip off!
Official distributor will not ship overseas if there is another official distributor in your country. This is the basics of the manufacturer & distrubutor deal. Also you can not be a distributor if you don't buy certain amount of cartridges (actually a lot of them). Manufacturer can not ask all the distributors worldwide to sell for the same price, custom fees and taxes are all different from country to country. I'm not sure why do you think the price in Japan (where the cartridge is made) and a price in USA or in Germany must be the same? |
@elizabeth I have an original still good Dynavector Ruby 23.. Gee $2000? Paid about $600 for NOS Dyna 23RS Super with MicroReach stylus (they call it Reach, not Ridge) on ebay this summer. Amazing cartridge, will blown away many $2k carts |
@fleschler
Chakster - I use a 12 year old Benz Ruby 3. Is that considered a vintage cartridge today? No, it's not a vintage cartridge. They are all from the XX century I had a Dynavector Ruby 23r back in its day. It was both relatively neutral and erred on the warm side (but I really liked it). Then I got the original Karat 17 which was really, really fast sounding but less involving and bright (I've been told today's Karat 17x3 is superior). My Ruby 23r stylus wore out back in the late 80s or early 90s.
I've tried both, but only very rare "S" versions. The difference is the stylus profile, which is MicroReach (aka MicroRidge). Here is my 17DS and 23RS MR. Another nice Dyna in collection from the old days, but not as good as the 17DS and 23RS MR. |
@liamowen
OK, so what do you guys and gals recommend for a cartridge on a Rega RP-10?
I bet something with $15k price tag is what you need, and you can't try it, lol. Do you really think any gals reading this thread ? |
The key world is "buying", not "trying". Japanese sellers does not provide trial option for the cartridges they are selling on ebay (the goal is just a low price). The OP problem is that he can’t buy, he want to try it first. He’s looking not only for the most expensive cartridges like Koetsu, he also would like to try it and return it used or even damaged back to the seller (or to a distributor). In his ideal world distributor have to lose money on people like him and return those opened/used cartridges back to the manufacturer for full refund? So if some people (who can’t even install $100 cartridge) will destroy 10% of the bunch of $5k cartridges (by trying them in their systems) it does not hurt anyone (dealer, distributor, manufacturer...) and all for free.
Used market is not for him, he need a new cartridge to open sealed box by himself and then return it used. How many cartridges he would like to try like that until he will find what he need (10-40) ? At the distributor’s cost anyway. Good idea? This is what this post is all about.
Buying cartridges is a "nightmare" for him, no free demos :(
For some sellers people like him is a "nighmare" to deal with.
This is where his ideal world meets the reality. Welcome to the world.
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Anyone can do this:
Simply buy used cartridge for affordable price (which is easy to re-sell with no loss at all), if you really like it then buy the same cartridge, but a brand new (sealed in the box) from authorized dealer for higher price with warranty if you want (maybe even with discount from a good dealer). You can only play with a cartridge for 2000 hrs maximum if the stylus is MicroRidge (or related), and only 500 hrs if the stylus is elliptical. Then your $10k cartridge must be re-tipped, but they don’t want you to re-tip it, they want you to buy anothey brand new cartridge for 60% of what you paid for a previous brand new cart. Each 2000 hrs of playtime you will have to pay again. Only a few manufacturers offer affordable re-tip or factory rebuild. Once you paid $10k most of the manufacturers would like to get another $6k from you when the stylus is worn. Or even more if you want to "upgrade" to the next overpriced model. This is crazy!
$10k for a cartridge is a waste of money anyway. You are trying to get demo of $10k cartridge to buy it, but what’s then? Another $6k to use it longer than 2000 hrs ? It’s a waste of money anyway, no matter how your cartridge was bought (with demo or without demo). It’s absolutely insane to pay $10k and then another $6k just to use a cartridge for a long time.
For the same price i can buy 16 amazing top of the line vintage cartridges and it would be much better investment because this is an experience with 16 different cartridges on different tonearms etc. This experience will bring me some killer cartridges for sure. And i don't care about dealers and stuff.
Your problem exist for very few people, who would like to buy the most expensive cartridges for some reason whithout even knowing why do they need them (because they never even tried them).
When do you think yours post will change everything in dealerships and customers care etc ? |
@hdm Have bought a couple of relatively inexpensive cartridges and other items from Juki in the past. Wouldn’t hesitate to deal with him and, if I recall correctly, he did take a fairly expensive cartridge back on return/exchange once from someone posting on another forum. He’s selling grey market cartridges, his ZYX cartridges (for example) have FAKE serial numbers and it was confirmed by distributor and manufacturer for me. Surely ebay buyers are all protected by paypal, but would you buy a cartridge from the seller who replaced original serial number with fake serial numbers ? Some official distributors will be happy to make a discount if the price is the reason. But i would never buy a new cartridge from a cheaters who manipulates with serial numbers. |
@daveyf
Simple reason, you have no way of truly knowing how many hours that cartridge has on it. Plus, who knows how the rest of it is performing, suspension issues etc., Consequently , whether it is up to manufacturers specs is anybody’s guess.
Therefore, there are many folks, including myself,who aren’t going to risk what you propose; perhaps unlike you, they are not willing to risk damaging expensive vinyl with a once and done play due to the defective stylus.
You still don’t believe that these old worn vintage models and the worn out modern cartridge can be a factor in this regard. Remind me to never buy any vinyl from you, lol. I quickly became a cartridge collector and all my favorite vintage cartridges were purchased NOS (New Old Stock, some of them still sealed). It's not easy to find a NOS cartridge, but first we can try used and if we like it we will wait for a NOS to pay much more for it. This is how it works. We keep on moving, learning the process, searching for the best cartridges, we pay for mistakes, but in the end we got some amazing vintage cartridges in New Old Stock condition. I definitely don't understand your style of buyin cartridges, except that you're looking for the most expensive ones. Some people strongly believes that each new cartridge must be played for 50-100 hrs to burn-in. Your $10k new cartridge may not be good enough if it was not used for 100 hrs. |
You guys have seen too many James Bond movies. As against Chakster’s experience with 2juki, there are many others who have had good experiences buying from him. (I purchased a used, vintage tonearm from him, not a cartridge, and I was very pleased with the transaction.) The risk for a new cartridge would be that the distributor in your own country would probably not honor the Japan-only warranty. Why should he? I am certainly not questioning Chakster’s veracity here. I’d like to know more. Well, used items is another story, no problem with them or with vintage stuff he could sell. But the question is why a brand new ZYX products is cheaper from him than from anybody else? Serial number of the very old ZYX appeared on a brand new ZYX cartridges from Juki. My own brand new ZYX Airy III came with fake serial number. I did not tell about the source when i asked to check serial number with US Distributor and Japanese manufacturer. I’m not sure where 2juki would get a ZYX cartridge with a "fake" serial number, in the first place, unless the implication is that the cartridge is not new or not what it is labeled as. Serial number most likely replaced by him or his supplier who would like to remain unknown, this how someone trying to get rid of the overstock by selling products to greymarket dealers (to sell them for much lover price than official price, even with discount). This is a real war between manufacturer/distributor and grey market sellers. What i can say for sure is that a distributor will be happy to make a discount too, maybe not all of them. And to make a good contact with a honest distributor is much better than with a grey market seller (imo). |
@hdm a few things you should know about ZYX:
Find information about upgrade program, only if your cartridge is LEGIT (not the one with fake serial number) you can send it back to ZYX to buy next model in the line with nice discount. You need a help of distributor to do that.
$3-5000 ZYX is not a Denon 103 to send it for "upgrade" to many re-tippers. You can only downgrade ZYX if someone will touch it, this cartridge has sealed body and unique Boron cantilever construction, especially the stylus mounting method (i’ve posted pics before in another thread). Each ZYX has tons of unique patents, this is not a conventional cheap cartridge.
Once your ZYX is worn or damaged what would you do? You can not send it back to ZYX if the serial number is fake number. It’s grey market cartridge. You can only destroy it, sell it, or rebuild it (no longer original zyx sound).
Yeah, i know it’s still ok for some dudes to buy on grey market, but not for me, i’m much more happy to buy a demo from official distributor or used legit cartridge from some nice and honest person.
P.S. No i have not tried to return a cartridge, i’ve been using this cartridge, i realize the problem with serial number only when i start thinking about upgrade to the next model for a low cost via official distributor.
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@hdm i see you're not an expert in ZYX and this is why you don't care, but you have to see the original cantilever of my ex ZYX Airy III and the way the nude stylus is mounter on it. Tell me if you ever seen any other cantilever like that. The whole diamong goes throught the tiny hole in the hollow pipe cantilever. Also cartridge body is sealed, so to exchange the cantilever someone has to broke the cartridge body. I know all OEM cartridges designed by Nakatsuka-San, but his own ZYX is far better than all of them. i totally understand experiments with $500 Monster Cable MC cartridges, but people buyin $3000 or $5000 ZYX not just to play with it for 2000hrs and send it to after-market retippers, but normally to upgrade it to the next ZYX model officially via distributor. If you think that selling a used ZYX cartridge (or any expensive $3k modern MC cartridge) is easy without big loss, then i think you're wrong. Those carts can sit on ebay forever, especially refurbished ones with completely different cantilevers and broken plastic body. To make it short: People who're willing to pay premium price for ZYX would love to have support from the distributors, only in this case they could live with this cartridge and upgrade it by sending the old one (with valid serial number) back to the distributor, paying the differens on top to have the next model. We're talking about $5000+ cartridges here. I must say that next model after Airy III was 4D and then Premium 4-D ( this one was so much better in my system after Airy III). Would i send Zyx Premium 4-D to SoundSmith (i think he's the best) or any other ? No way! It make no sense to buy premium Zyx cartridges to send them for re-tip or rebuild to third-party vendors. I'm sure no one can make a ZYX cartridge better than Nakatsuka-San himself. It's better to buy another fully original cartridge, maybe from a different brand for more affordable price (this is what i did). P.S. For the same reason I would not send SoundSmith cartridges for example to Andy Kim pretending he will make them better or equal by adding his cantilever/stylus combo. This is nonsense. I don't want SoundSmith cantilever on ZYX too. |
@lewm Chakster, That photo of the cantilever/stylus on your Airy III is quite interesting. Didn’t Nandric indicate that pressure fitting of stylus to cantilever can only be done with an aluminum cantilever? Yet ZYX uses boron, I think. Or am I in error? This type of Boron cantilever is what Nakatsuka-San is using even on lower priced models, i’m sure high priced models also have same type of cantilever and same type of stylus mounting. This is what i can see on ZYX site on the pictures. Nandric is right about aluminum, but we don’t know the material of that collar on ZYX cantilever. Anyway remember Hollow Pipe Boron cantilevers made by Technics and laser etched technology to make a tiny hole in Boron to fit the diamond throght it (it was made in the ’70s by Matsushita). I know that ZYX Boron cantilever is rod, not pipe, but the collar may be a boron pipe or titanium pipe or whatever material (not necessary aluminum, because it’s black) ? It’s interesting, but aluminum collar on the oposite side of the Jico Boron cantilever looks like aluminum. But ZYX collar looks like Boron (it’s black). One metal collar (joint pipe) used by Jico to mount a Boron cantilever (Jico SAS stylus for my Technics 205c mk4), Axel did the same with Nagaoka boron cantilevers to rebuild technics 205c mk4, but it’s another story. The stylus is simply glued on Boron cantilever in both cases. Another collar used by Nakatsuka-San to mount his MicroRidge nude diamond right throught the pipe with minimum glue to reduce the mass. |
On my French forum a few members have bought at 2juki without problems.
No problem until you would like to upgrade the cartridge officially when it's time to (when the diamond is worn), so you can not do that with grey market ZYX with fake serial numbers (Nakatsuka-San refuse it). You can only proceed with third-party vendors, the problem is that no one can give you the same cantilever and the same stylus mounting style, look at the picture of my Airy III original cantilever. |
@gilles130 if anyone would like to repair the suspension then it’s also impossible, same logic, ZYX cartridge body is sealed, nobody knows which material has been used by Nakatsuka-San for suspension/damper. If you proceed via official distributor then you will get a brand new cartridge or next model, but all you need is to ship your original cartridge back to Japan via distributor to get special discount for the next one. They do not repair or retip ZYX, they will give you a brand new ZYX. You can’t do that with grey market cartridge from grey market seller who manipulates with serial numbers. End of the story.
For those who would like to save buying grey market product there is no benefits when it comes to retip (or suspension repair) they can only proceed with third-party vendors to get some sort of Frankenstain instead of original ZYX. In my opinion ZYX cartridge is for rich dudes ready to pay for a new one when the first one is worn out (full support from the manufacturer if the high price is not a problem).
You ended up with another cartridge, me too
So ZYX is not for me.
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