The new Synergistic Research BLUE fuses ....

Well I am doing what any good audiophile should be doing right now.
Sitting back and enjoying the music.

Alf by Alison Moyet.

Superbly produced and mastered l.p. playing back through my system with yes Sr blue fuses.....lol.

✌

Dark tone to this thread? Whoa! What? Where? Who? When? Yikes!! I knew I should not have left my iPad and gone somewhere. 😳

Viscous?! Oh, my! Did I miss a post about fluid dynamics or something? Liquid filled fuses, perchance? Oh, my!

Thought we already had liquid filled fuses.
At least semi liquid
Audiomagic beeswax fuses I believe
Oh heck even more moolah than a SR Blue fuse though.
Wonder if it matters what type of bee?
Maybe it might need to fly backwards for directionality.
You know
Zzub, zzub

Speaking of other fuses, perish the thought 😬, what’s the deal with the new $400 Bussman audiophile fuse? Anyone? I’m giving serious consideration to knocking one off.

oregonpapa,

Again ... tens of thousands of Red, Black and Blue fuses sold to an appreciative customer base with very few returns says tons more than a few skeptics posting here.

I'm afraid not.  That's a fallacy.

If there are good reasons to be skeptical of a phenomenon being reported by large groups of people, it doesn't matter if those reasons are voiced by a handful, or even one person, vs the majority.  A lot of people using a faulty method of inference doesn't add up to a sound method of inference.

A medical study using poor controls that yields a "positive" result isn't any more reliable if it uses 100 or 7,000 people.  Similarly, if the technical explanations for the sonic influence of audiophile fuses are only speculative, and the evidence beyond that is "many audiophiles reporting a difference" then it's just being reasonable to admit "the results could be due to perceptual bias."   Thousands, millions, of people believe things in unison due to such biases and cherry-picking to support their own biases.  It's just human nature.  That's why controls are put in place when studying anything that relies on our reporting our perceptions - be it medicine, studies of human hearing, etc.  (Note that geoff could not, or would not, answer why hearing tests are blinded for the subject.  Why not?   Because admitting the reason clearly has implications for the reliability of his beliefs about fuses and other tweaks.
Instead...he fell back on name-calling and silly "blind tests are for sissies."  I guess he'll be insisting on being told every time a tone is playing if he ever goes for a hearing test).

Again, that is not to conclude fuses don't make a difference; only to identify weaker arguments in defense of that claim.

I have no problem with anyone buying any tweak, trying it out, feeling it made a difference reporting on that, etc.  Fine.  I do that, we all do that. We all can't spend our time doing scientific-level testing on everything we buy.

But it's different when people refuse to show any epistimic humility, and use their subjective impressions to make objective claims that such tweak DO make a sonic difference, and that their own personal impressions are sufficient to establish this fact.  Especially when we have entered an area of controversy, THAT is when it's prudent to caution "Well, no, actually you haven't really accounted for the possibility of bias in your results." 

Its good to remember The Golden Rule. Do not try to dissuade others from buying and enjoying products that you haven't experienced for yourself. Pretty simple, really.

First, I'm not trying to dissuade anyone.  But I disagree. It's far from that simple.

As I've pointed out numerous times, you don't have to "try something for yourself" to understand when the method is an unreliable one, and therefore to have reasonable doubt about claims made on such a basis.

If I "tried astrology for myself" using the same method people use to read their horoscopes, engaging in the same method of cherry-picking hits and ignoring misses, then sure I can come out with the same result.
Astrology works!  But, adopting what you know to be a dubious method of inference is hardly the way to establish whether something is true or not.

If I just put aside everything I knew about the type of bias effects humans, and hence I myself am susceptible to, and think "Well, I'm just not going to apply those rules to audio" then sure, I can try out fuses, and green pens on CDs, and tiny vibrating discs and come out thinking "They all make a difference!" 

But...if I care about truth...why would I do that? I'd want to make sure I account as best I can for what I know about human bias when making such inferences.

And raising reasonable skeptical doubts is a good thing (outside of church, anyway).   It's more information into the pot.

Think of people who are desperately ill who are swayed by reports of nonsense "cures."   They will be able to find numerous true believer reports of the efficacy of the cure - but if they don't know these reports are based on a very unreliable sample type - this can have bad consequences.  People can and do lose valuable time, e.g. when they have cancer, going for b.s. treatments based only on subjective inference, that fail and allow them to die, vs going for more scientifically established treatments.  Being right actually matters.

So if someone is being advised of a dubious "cure" to "just try this cancer cure for yourself" it's a good thing to let them know "actually, there's little basis for that claim."   Knowledge is power.

High End audio isn't life-and death.  But there are still consequences to being wrong.  You may end up spending tons of money that you didn't have to spend - and wouldn't want to spend on something that actually didn't do what it purports to do.  

Why would it be good for a newbie, for instance, to only hear one side of the story?  Only "THIS tweak works!" If there are good reasons for skepticism, then I think that side should be presented as well, so people get a fuller picture of what is going on.  Then they can be in a more informed position to spend their money.

I'm certainly glad to have encountered all sorts of skeptical arguments I encountered early on.  They saved me money!   Though I could have, and sometimes have, bought tweaks anyway.  But at least I did so with a fuller picture of the facts.

And, again, someone doesn't have to "try it for himself" in order to raise reasonable doubts about a claim.

Finally, I saw your next post and agree about the nature of on-line misunderstandings.

Cheers,

prof,

It's cool that you actually did some blind testing for yourself. I don’t have anything against anyone doing blind testing, if they want to. The reason many on forums (myself included) have a negative reaction to it is because of those who use it as a bludgeon when someone reports hearing a positive difference with certain types of products. They arrogantly demand that the person prove it by taking a blind test. I seriously doubt these particular individuals ever initiate or participate in blind tests themselves. 

prof
oregonpapa “Again ... tens of thousands of Red, Black and Blue fuses sold to an appreciative customer base with very few returns says tons more than a few skeptics posting here.”

I’m afraid not. That’s a fallacy.

If there are good reasons to be skeptical of a phenomenon being reported by large groups of people, it doesn’t matter if those reasons are voiced by a handful, or even one person, vs the majority. A lot of people using a faulty method of inference doesn’t add up to a sound method of inference.

>>>>>>Ah, the old UFO analogy. Well played! But aftermarket fuses isn’t really similar since 99% of users are happy campers. And they have been for 15 years. Hel-loo! And there is evidence that fuses work. And there are very good physical and electrical reasons why they should. Who cares about the 1%? They are outliers and can be thrown out.

A medical study using poor controls that yields a "positive" result isn’t any more reliable if it uses 100 or 7,000 people. Similarly, if the technical explanations for the sonic influence of audiophile fuses are only speculative, and the evidence beyond that is "many audiophiles reporting a difference" then it’s just being reasonable to admit "the results could be due to perceptual bias."

>>>>Actually I think it’s better to have a large population for a medical study. Also audio is not really analogous to medical studies.

Thousands, millions, of people believe things in unison due to such biases and cherry-picking to support their own biases. It’s just human nature. That’s why controls are put in place when studying anything that relies on our reporting our perceptions - be it medicine, studies of human hearing, etc. (Note that geoff could not, or would not, answer why hearing tests are blinded for the subject. Why not? Because admitting the reason clearly has implications for the reliability of his beliefs about fuses and other tweaks.

>>>>>I have always said blind tests are used by pseudo skeptics as a challenge to audiophiles, as if blind tests would prove them wrong. And don’t forget, if results of a blind test are negative they don’t mean anything. But if they’re positive it’s time to rejoice. Blind tests don’t have implications for anything.

Instead...he fell back on name-calling and silly "blind tests are for sissies." I guess he’ll be insisting on being told every time a tone is playing if he ever goes for a hearing test).

>>>>Hey, whatever.

Again, that is not to conclude fuses don’t make a difference; only to identify weaker arguments in defense of that claim.

>>>>>Who cares? Nobody has to prove anythung. Are you pretending to be obtuse?

I have no problem with anyone buying any tweak, trying it out, feeling it made a difference reporting on that, etc. Fine. I do that, we all do that. We all can’t spend our time doing scientific-level testing on everything we buy.

>>>>That’s awful decent of you. What a guy!

But it’s different when people refuse to show any epistimic humility, and use their subjective impressions to make objective claims that such tweak DO make a sonic difference, and that their own personal impressions are sufficient to establish this fact. Especially when we have entered an area of controversy, THAT is when it’s prudent to caution "Well, no, actually you haven’t really accounted for the possibility of bias in your results."

>>>>>>I recommend filing that paragraph under Whatever.

Its good to remember The Golden Rule. Do not try to dissuade others from buying and enjoying products that you haven’t experienced for yourself. Pretty simple, really.

>>>>>I’ll try to remember that. 😬

First, I’m not trying to dissuade anyone. But I disagree. It’s far from that simple.

>>>>no, it is simple. You’re making a mountain out of a molehill.

As I’ve pointed out numerous times, you don’t have to "try something for yourself" to understand when the method is an unreliable one, and therefore to have reasonable doubt about claims made on such a basis.

>>>>There is nothing magic about a blind test. That’s a fallacy perpetrated by pseudo skeptics like The Amazing Randi and the skeptics society. Blind tests are also unreliable. Especially if the results are NEGATIVE.

If I "tried astrology for myself" using the same method people use to read their horoscopes, engaging in the same method of cherry-picking hits and ignoring misses, then sure I can come out with the same result.

Astrology works! But, adopting what you know to be a dubious method of inference is hardly the way to establish whether something is true or not.

>>>>Oh, geez! So now we’re comparing audio tweaks to astrology? 

If I just put aside everything I knew about the type of bias effects humans, and hence I myself am susceptible to, and think "Well, I’m just not going to apply those rules to audio" then sure, I can try out fuses, and green pens on CDs, and tiny vibrating discs and come out thinking "They all make a difference!"

>>>>No one is saying there are not biases in humans, for crying out loud. But pseudo skeptics want to claim that ALL USERS of fancy fuses are experiencing psychological effects. Which is actually absurd.

But...if I care about truth...why would I do that? I’d want to make sure I account as best I can for what I know about human bias when making such inferences.

>>>>>Hey, knock yourself out! Do whatever you want.

And raising reasonable skeptical doubts is a good thing (outside of church, anyway). It’s more information into the pot.

>>>>Real skeptics get to the bottom of things. Pseudo skeptics just keep up a steady stream of logical fallacies.

Think of people who are desperately ill who are swayed by reports of nonsense "cures." They will be able to find numerous true believer reports of the efficacy of the cure - but if they don’t know these reports are based on a very unreliable sample type - this can have bad consequences. People can and do lose valuable time, e.g. when they have cancer, going for b.s. treatments based only on subjective inference, that fail and allow them to die, vs going for more scientifically established treatments. Being right actually matters.

>>>>Again, there is no analogy between audio and medicine. I knew the “cancer ploy” was coming. Bold move, Professor! 🤡

So if someone is being advised of a dubious "cure" to "just try this cancer cure for yourself" it’s a good thing to let them know "actually, there’s little basis for that claim." Knowledge is power.

>>>>Again with the cancer. Oh, the knowledge is power ploy with the cancer ploy. Bold move, Professor! 😬

High End audio isn’t life-and death. But there are still consequences to being wrong. You may end up spending tons of money that you didn’t have to spend - and wouldn’t want to spend on something that actually didn’t do what it purports to do.

>>>>>Uh, oh, did I just detect the life and death ploy. And the tons of money. Wow! He’s pulling out all the stops, now, folks!

Why would it be good for a newbie, for instance, to only hear one side of the story? Only "THIS tweak works!" If there are good reasons for skepticism, then I think that side should be presented as well, so people get a fuller picture of what is going on. Then they can be in a more informed position to spend their money.

>>>>>Protect the innocent, the gullible, the naive, from the evils of fuses. 🤡

I’m certainly glad to have encountered all sorts of skeptical arguments I encountered early on. They saved me money! Though I could have, and sometimes have, bought tweaks anyway. But at least I did so with a fuller picture of the facts.

>>>>Unfortunately, the skeptical arguments you encountered were, by and large, of the logical fallacy variety, Professor.

And, again, someone doesn’t have to "try it for himself" in order to raise reasonable doubts about a claim.

>>>>>Whatever.

Well Prof, I try to inform AND amuse.  
Good to hear you appreciate a finer cable. 
You might reason a better fuse is like a better cable.
You might then actually try one.
Then, you would have something of topic to comment on.  

prof ...

Just so you won't feel as though you're coming under attack here, you're not. I enjoy your well thought out posts. Same with Geoffkait. Funny stuff ... and not insulting or over the top either. Well, maybe in Geoff's case sometimes ... :-)

Frank

Oregonpapa, you’re entitled to your opinion, of course, but in fairness I actually don’t attack people. I attack their ideas. See the difference? If I attack someone personally you’ll know it. 😛 I’m sure the Professor is a big boy and doesn’t need his Mommy.

@prof , kudos to you for your civility and eloquence. Your responses are well thought out and respectful.

jafreeman
You might reason a better fuse is like a better cable.

Ho! how very wrong and just more "snake oil", speaker/interconnect cable has inductance, resistance and capacitance, all of which "can" have an influence on sound, a fuse has none of these, save for a tiny fraction of micro-ohm resistance, which would absolutely do nothing.

@prof , kudos to you for your civility and eloquence. Your responses are well thought out and respectful.

Give him time, he’s a newbie, I've seen the cracks in a couple if posts, it's just a matter of time here. 

Cheers George

+1 thecarpathian 

George
Just fyi
Today has been a good spirited post type of day.
Some good posts from opposing points of view.
And guess what
Not one member stooped to using the term "snake oil" until somebody rattled your cage.
Go figure huh!

There is nothing wrong with the term "snake oil" when used with regards to most of the unbelievable effects of >$150 fuses claimed here, as the whole technical side of the industry uses that same term with regards to fuses and what's said here, save for the couple of them that are making money out of it.

Cheers George  

Funny how hardly anybody else feels the need to use the term in every post though is it not?
Honestly I could not care less because all it does is make you look petty and cause your posts to run the risk of being removed.
So if there was even a grain of intellectual interest in your posts you are dooming them to the sin bin right from the get go.
But feel free and carry on my wayward son.

Guys ...

Check this debate out. Can you imagine if one of them ever discovered SR Blue fuses or Tim’s "Total Contact?" And the other was a total nonbeliever?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmH7JUeVQb8

I can hear Georgehifi shouting from the audience ... "Snake oil!" ... "Snake oil ... !!!" :-)

Frank

We all welcome Prof's civil discourse; we admire the finesse and nuance in making a case, but in all of this, whether from a refined or from others' crude comments, I still come away with being told that what I report as my listening experience, along with scores of others reporting, is not good enough, is subject to bias, is probably a mistake in hearing, and, until a study with control and experimental groups is conducted, even though no audio product I know of has ever been marketed in such a way, skepticism will rule decision making on buying these fuses.  Through all the superfluous appeals to science, we admit we buy our audio based on a combination of others' opinions, e.g., reviewers and audiophile forum reports, product reputation and going to audio stores to actually listen for ourselves, which brings us right back to the OP's invitation:  If you  try the SR Blue fuses please post your report here.
No amount of circular reasoning, argument from incredulity, moving the goalposts, etc will replace this simple request---try one and tell us your impression.  
I love what I am hearing from the addition of SR Blues---wider soundstage, more musical information and better clarity.  I confidently stand by my findings.      

I love this quote:

>>>>Oh, geez! So now we’re comparing audio tweaks to astrology?

From the gentleman who runs this site:

https://www.machinadynamica.com/machina43.htm

Thanks everyone!  Much obliged for the conversation.

Over 'n out.

05-08-2018 11:12amFunny how hardly anybody else feels the need to use the term "snake oil"

Hi-Fi Fuses - SNAKE OIL? - or something in it? | Audiogon ...

Audio Grade Fuses - More Snake Oil? - General Hi-Fi Discussion ...

Doubts about audiophile fuses. | Steve Hoffman Music Forums

$39 gold-plated fuses improve sound quality - CNET

Audio Grade Fuses | Page 19 | Headphone Reviews and Discussion ...

Worst Hi-Fi Snake Oil? - Linn Forums

Furutech Audiophile Fuses - Snakeoil OS

audio - Directional audiophile fuses - Electrical Engineering Stack ...

Funniest snake oil theories - Page 768 - diyAudio

And that’s not even one page of tens of pages on "fuse snake oil"


Cheers George

George, do us all a favor will ya?

Get busy and link all the pages you can find. That way, we can discount it all at once. What you're doing is a form of confirmation bias. Be sure to discount any links that run counter to your beliefs: it will make you feel better.

All the best.
Nonoise

Like I said allnoise, that wasn't even all the first page of over 10.

Cheers George

I was referring to THIS thread George , this thread!
As well you know but no, you try to play the obtuse card.
Yes please dig back into the 2000,s to link stuff, at least it gives you something to do and keeps you away from here while doing so!

Oh dear...
Trouble be brewing now......

The spectrum of dissension has ranged from outright mockery and derision to pedantic lecturing, but whether dressed in tennis shoes or tuxedos, the abrasive naysayers were not invited by Frank, and, even if we are left only with mutual agreement and back slapping, at least he gets one of the threads to be in the spirit he has asked for, predictable as it may then become. Seems the only new ground to be broken here is that the more insulting, miserable trolls agree to try the SR fuses or leave. In other words--leave--time to clean house. 
We can still enjoy talking about general tweakery, personal asides, music and how good it all sounds.  There will also be new explanations in material science breaking through.   

^^^ Thanks, jafreeman.  

A portion of a message from a fellow member, not sr blue but still another example of people who actually listen to changes!

"Your replacing the fuse intrigues me as I found that replacing the fuse in my PS Audio Directstream DAC significantly improved SQ. I initially replaced with SR Red, which I really likes, and then the Audio Magic Beeswax SHD fuse, which was even better and more liquid in it's sound. Many guys on the PS Audio site swear by the AM Beeswax fuses, for what it's worth. "

Ho hum....

Nobody’s doubting that aftermarket fuses are a good idea, are they? 70,000 Fuses later and counting. Even NASA’s got em. 

Eddy

From my experience I would concur that DAC and pre amps seem to respond the best, and of course the phono stage is in reality a pre amp.
Although I did hear some improvement in a BAT power amp, biggest changes to my ears were in a DAC and in my phono stage.
Good luck and please let us know how it goes!

Eddy
What's a CD player??
😂😂

I question the basic marketing idea of naming a fuse "blue." Sort of like calling a car "The Breakdown" or an amp "The Distorto."

Wolf, you have got to try some SR Blues. What are you doing for quiet current?  I'm over on the "Fantastic Tweak" page, raving about the magic goop---great stuff! 

My current is currently quiet...bespoke power supplies for my DAC and Phono pre, old but trusty power conditioner, PS Audio Humbuster III, good cables. My tube pre and power amps are the quietest I've owned. And no goop for me...I shall remain goopless.

Your loss.

Wolf sez:

• My tube pre and power amps are the quietest I've owned. 
  

Yep, that's what I thought about my ARC Ref-75se until I changed out the existing SR Red and Black fuses for the SR  Blues. I honestly thought the ARC was a grain-less amp until I made the fuse changes. Applying Tim Mrock's "Total Contact" was like putting the fuses on steroids x twenty. 

Have an open mind, read the reviews from those who have actually tried these products .. and go from there.

Frank

Quietness is a relative term. A very good noise figure for an audio preamp is what -100 dB? -110dB? The preamp on a military project I was on a long time ago in a Galaxy far far away had a noise figure of -132 dB. Which is obviously a great many times quieter than -100 dB or -110 dB. Everything is relative. Obviously total system noise will be much higher than the preamp noise anyway. Getting rid of micro arcing can’t hurt.

Frank:  "I honestly thought the ARC was a grain-less amp until I made the fuse changes."

I agree.  I must have reached ten higher plateaus of sound improvement by now since adding in more power supply and isolation, OCC copper, vibration control, room treatment, SR fuses and now, Total Contact.  Whatever sonic limit there is in a redbook CD, whenever I thought I had come close to it, I later had found I had not yet reached it---probably never will.   

jafreeman ...

Of all the tweaks in the system, TC was the biggest game changer.

My vinyl rig used to take most of my serious listening time. It was just superior to the CD playback I was getting. Not anymore. I probably listen to CD's about 90% of the time now.

Honestly, I had no idea how great Red-book CD's could sound. It keeps me interested in the hobby and wondering how much more information is to be had in those silver discs. I'm no longer buying equipment because I've reached the point where I'm very happy with the system as it now sits. I just buy more music.  :-)

Geoffkait ....

The main benefit of the TC is how dramatically it lowers the noise floor. The SR Blue fuses do a nice job here, but the TC is the game changer. Once most of the electrical connections are pasted and allowed to "cure," the noise floor drops even further. That's what the four and eight week phenomenons are all about. It really has to be experienced to be believed. 

Frank

oregonpapa wrote,

Geoffkait ....

The main benefit of the TC is how dramatically it lowers the noise floor. The SR Blue fuses do a nice job here, but the TC is the game changer. Once most of the electrical connections are pasted and allowed to "cure," the noise floor drops even further. That's what the four and eight week phenomenons are all about. It really has to be experienced to be believed.

>>>>>That’s kind of what I just got through saying. Hel-loo!

I did a lot of research (for all those people who tink I use a different name then you don’t know me. I would never do that. Only done by all those born losers. And you should never want to be one of them) in fuses in the last years. And mannn I love them. They can make a huge difference in a possitive way.

But....there is a big limitation. And this is the same limitation as be found in over 99% of all products in audio. And that is the fact that most products including fuses are incomplete.

This means on facts (and this has nothing to do with personal taste. What is one big F. nonsense believed by many, because it does not exist. I will esplain this later on facts again) that it misses essential parts of sound. And the rule is; what is missing will never be there.

In 2017 I recieved the Black fuse to test it for the company who sells it in my country. I understood directly why people love it. But after a month I also understood that it is incomplete as well compared to other fuses.

Audio is done by trial and error all over the world. This is audio without any kind of foundation at the level of a child. It is audio gambling and the results are very ineffective. And yess as promised I will teach you all that we are talking about facts which can be understood by all people overhere.

All the trial and error people (I call them children these days) are only able to focus on one of just a few of all the properties of sound. And make often changements in their trail and error systems based on one property of sound.

I can garantee you that they have no F.idea that there are properties missing. When I compared the Black when it was burned in with the fuses I use I directly could hear what was missing.

The fuses I use create a lot more depth and also more decay and space around voices and instruments. This is essential for different properties of sound.

When you want to guide and control you system there is only one way to understand it. And that is thinking and working by all the different properties of sound. There is no second way to understand and guide it. All other options are all different kind of trail and error. What lacks any kind of foundation.

When you want to understand audio you need to understand sound first. And second you need to learn how the human emotion works. And which parts our human emotions influences.

And you need to focus on all those parts which negatively influences both sound and stage. Most people who work in audio and who see it as their hobby all think that it is 1980.

It is 2018 and mannn it is impressive what is possible these days. In the last months I made new huge improvements in both sound and vision. That is why I was not here. I am an extreme focused person who needs al the rest in my head to create and develope new thought which are in my head.

I ordered the new Lumin X1 and will be one of the first who will own it. It will create many new ideas and options. I am addicted to both sound&vision. And this is my world since I was a child. And here I create things most people overhere can only dream of.

See ya all soon!!

So, do you make your own fuses?   Do you market your fuses?  If neither, what fuses are you using and why do you think they work/sound better?  Thanks

I like the "more decay" part as you can't get enough decay, and I also think napping is essential. Bo knows mann...

Audio is all about facts, but most people do audio by gambling and believe in fairytaless.

I will test the blue when I have time. I think the DNA will be the same as the  Black ones owns. 

My comment was removed based on the fact that Audiogon exsists of people who pay them money for advertisments.