Synergistic Red Fuse ...

Can you explain just what is used in fuses to create the different amperage ratings that then influence failure at the indicated rating? From pictures, I have always thought that the filament sizes/widths are increased to achieve the higher ratings in otherwise same-type fuses, and this would to my thinking also indicate a reduction in resistance or, as you stated, more of a straight wire approach.

That sounds exactly right to me, JA. And that is borne out by examination of the detailed technical datasheets that are provided by the leading manufacturers of non-audiophile fuses. Within a given series of fuses, that are similar in most respects other than their current ratings and "melting points," resistances become progressively lower as current ratings increase.

I’ll add that I would expect in general that the characteristics and behavior of fuses in speaker applications figure, IMO, to be much more critical than in the case of many and probably most electronic component applications. First, it doesn’t seem highly unreasonable to expect the small fraction of an ohm resistance of these fuses to constitute an audibly significant fraction of the impedance of many speakers. And of course fuses in passive speakers (and some fuses in active speakers) directly conduct the audio signal, or at least some of its frequency components, as opposed to a mains fuse or a DC rail fuse in a component. Also, since the resistance of a fuse varies somewhat as a function of the amount of current it is conducting, the fluctuations of that resistance as a function of the dynamics of the music will be greater in a speaker application than in the case of most electronic component applications. With the fluctuations in themselves perhaps having audible consequences. Finally, in the case of mains fuses in electronic components, if the AC line voltage at a particular location happens to be significantly greater than whatever voltage the component was designed to sound best at (presumably 120 volts in most cases, for equipment sold in the USA), it seems conceivable that more fuse resistance could actually sound better than less, since it would result in slightly less voltage being applied to the component. But that possibility would not be applicable in the case of a fuse in the audio signal path of a speaker.

... are you thinking of accepting the SR fuse challenge in one of your own components?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I suspect I’ll give one of the SR black fuses a try at some point, probably initially in my CDP. But right now and in the coming weeks I’m focusing on other priorities in my system, including a repair the CDP is undergoing, a repair I’ll be attempting to do myself on my vintage tuner, and break-in of my AT-ART9 cartridge and subsequent finalization of the related tonearm adjustments.

Best regards,
-- Al

P.S: Thanks very much to Charles for the kind words he posted yesterday.

I certainly look forward to almarg's impression of the Synergistic Research Black fuses. I found it to be a fascinating science experiment that then yielded major sonic improvements.

This weekend I had the unusual opportunity to hear the Julliard String Quartet play the same program at two different venues. The second venue was the newly acoustically treated performance hall at the University of Texas at El Paso. This hall reminded me of the sound changes going from a system with stock fuses to a system with Black fuses. 

David Pritchard

mapman - your experience was similar to mine when trying the AH Black Platinum Fuse vs the fuse I have in my ARC Ref 3 Preamp.  

Only a very subtle difference... and... the fuse I have in my ARC Ref 3 Preamp sounds like it may even be better in some respects (clarity, detail resolution, dynamics for the most part, and maybe a bit brighter).   While the AH fuse may have a bit richer sound.  

For the most part, the difference that I seem to detect (not sure because it's so subtle) seems like the difference in the sound of silver interconnects vs silver coated copper interconnects, or OFC copper interconnects.  

I do not call the fuse in my ARC Ref 3 Preamp the "stock fuse," because I don't know if it is the "stock fuse."  The element in it does not look like most fuses (a straight wire, or coiled wire), it has a more complex element, which looks somewhat like a resistor in a glass tube.  So, it may not be the "stock fuse" - it does sound superb, whatever it is.  

Whatever... I had expected a much more discernable difference in the sound for a $100+ tweek.  

Al, thanks for an understandable comparison of how fuses interact differently according to their applications.  I will stay close to the stock ratings in my mains fuses and will continue to push the ratings in my Maggies as I move from SR reds to blacks, a considerable investment for the four fuses in just the Maggies, but also yielding the most dramatic results in sound stage and clarity.  

There are many reasons why someone might not get the (excellent) results most other people report or might only get minimal results. This sort of thing actually happens with almost every audiophile device and even with cables. There is never a guarantee of 100% reproducibility in this hobby. I suspect with fuses especially, you know, what with the directionality issue and long burn in times, it’s mighty tempting to blame negative or null results on one or both of those particular things. But there are other reasons, too. George Tice, in his letter to Stereophile regarding a particularly angry response from a dissatisfied customer of his Tice Clock, proposed four reasons why audiophiles sometimes don’t get the results they expect from certain audiophile products (like the Tice Clock). And I quote,

"There are four reasons why someone could not get the full potential from a TPT Clock. They are: 1) You did not follow the directions. 2) There are one or more choke points in your system (a choke point is a component which is significantly below the quality of the rest of the system). 3) Your audio system is not up to the standards by which anything can be accurately judged. (I noticed in your letter you never mentioned what components you use.) 4) Your hearing ability is not as refined as that of other music lovers and audiophiles."

Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/tice-r-4-tpt-coherence-electrotec-ep-c-clocks-letters-about-tice-...

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Geoff. For someone always declaring straw man arguments of others you sure are a champ.  What does a tice clock have to do with fuses?   Answer:. Nothing.  

Well, after 100 hours of having added the black fuses to my CD player and black UEF power cords to it and the preamp, I must say that the difference is absolutely staggering. YOU HAVE TO LEAVE EVERYTHING ALONE AND NOT FIDDLE WITH CABLES OR DO AB COMPARISONS WITH YOUR OLD CABLES AND FUSES WHILE BREAKING IN. LET EVERYTHING ACCLIMATE. IF YOU DONT DO THIS - YOU WILL NEVER UNDERSTAND WHAT THESE PRODUCTS CAN DO DOR YOUR SOUND. YOU WILL NEVER GET THESE THINGS OUT OF "FIRST GEAR".

I istened to some cachao volume 1, a CD I have had for nearly 20 years. Tonight it was like listening to it for the first time. As if the disc had been remastered in SACD. I gotta say, it’s true, you only hear a glimpse of what’s to come until it settles for at least 100 hours. This is a whole new level of fidelity. Clarity is stunning- grain free, making the instruments sound eerily real. Timbre central! The CD went from a b+ to an A+. I really thought my system imaged well and had a great soundstage. Boy was I wrong. I can literally highlight any instrument I want to in the mix and study it. I hate to say it, but my systems "hi Rez" sound was a shaved off, approximate mush of the original waveform. It’s hard to believe that this is a red book cd. The difference in PRAT is huuuuge.  It was mechanical and stiff sounding by comparison. There is a natural ebb and flow, allowing small timing and spatial cues to come through with aplomb-which is probably due to the noise floor dropping.  Inflections are now clearly defined.  It's just an incredible difference.   

Honestly, I know these differences can’t be measured. But I KNOW what I hear, and this system is easily light years ahead of where it was before the SR fuses and cables. These are prerequisite IMHO to hear your systems reality. In fact, these products are so good, they may recalibrate ones baseline for what hi fidelity is. Not having these is like driving a Ferrari with cheap auto parts store house brand tires on it. Yes it will roll down the road and and be able to hit 200 miles an hour, but it won’t do it with anywhere near as gracefully and confidently as with a set of high end tires. I look forward to even more out of these as they continue to break in. But at only 100 hours- they are making me question reality.

audiolover ...

Wow! Your description is dead on as to what my results have been. Isn't it interesting that "bassdude" and I have the same preamp (ARC REF-3), and yet we've gotten completely different results.

The first fuse I tried was an SR Red in the preamp. I was blown away by the results. Then, two days later I had my friend Robert over for a listen, not telling him about the fuse. All he knew was that I had made "some kind of improvement to the system." I left it up to him to guess what the improvement was. He guessed new cables, tube rolling, magic dust. When I told him it was an after market fuse upgrade, he wouldn't believe me until I showed him the box the fuse came in. He's a definite believer in the SR Fuses now ... and he is pretty much anti-tweaks and a real critic. 

I thought geoffkait's Tice Clock story was interesting. I've spent an inordinate amount of time and money eliminating micro vibrations in my system. I'm thinking that that may have something to do with the outstanding results I'm getting from the fuses. The system was already (I thought) a very high resolution system. The upgrade to the SR Black fuses have brought me to the level you are experiencing. 

Perhaps you're right in your assessment of moving the fuses in and out to make a-b comparisons. I'm hoping that mapman will leave the fuse in place for at least 50 hours before he gives up on it. It wouldn't surprise me if his fuse needs to break in all over again as it sat on my shelf for several weeks before I sent it off to him. 

Al ... I have to say, you make this site very interesting indeed. Love reading your technical explanations. I don't understand it all ... but I do pick up some of it. I'm terrible at building stuff ... but I can sell the bejeezus out of it. *lol*

Crazy stuff for sure ...

Well, I've just discovered that the PS Audio Power Plant 300 actually prefers the Red fuse over the Quantum Black.
A friend of mine, who loves music (well, let me correct that: he loves Scheherazade, and ONLY Scheherazade), was over the past few days, so last night, I decided to play the vinyl version (I think it's a Classic Records release, but don't hold me on that).
SO. We listened once and suddenly I wondered, because the sound was just slightly strange sounding, what it would sound like with the Red fuse. So, I popped out the Black and put in the Red, and put the needle on da record and wonder of wonders, it sounded better. So, I began changing the orientation of both the Red and Black and in the end, the Red sounded better than the Black. I have no idea why. Don't even suggest burn in: it's been two weeks, 24/7 in the Power Plant with a fan hooked up to it, too.
Hey, no skin off my nose: I can put it in the NAD C356BEE integrated I'm giving to a friend and see how it sounds there! But it was a surprise and no head scratching was required. Dave said, it sounds better this way, and that was with the Red fuse in it. Go figure!

Mapman wrote,

"Geoff. For someone always declaring straw man arguments of others you sure are a champ. What does a tice clock have to do with fuses? Answer: Nothing."

Actually the list of reasons why audiophiles sometimes don’t get the results they expect is not a Strawman argument. A Strawman argument is by definition a misstatement of the other person’s position in an argument or debate. The difference is we are not actually having a debate on your test of the Red fuse. So I cannot be misstating your position. I’m simply offering possible reasons why you had an unsuccessful experience with the Red fuse. Maybe you can add to that list.

These reasons are the same for ANY audiophile device, whether it be a fuse, a cable, but IMHO usually involves a controversial audiophile device, one that often creates some angst and trepidation in the audiophile, perhaps especially when it’s done in public. Maybe there is some psychological aspect to why audiophiles sometimes get negative results with certain audio devices, things like clocks, silver foils, Shakti Stones, Schumann Frequency Generators, crystals, tiny little bowl resonators, green pens, purple pens,....fuses.

Mapman, I suggest you re-install the sr-red fuse and allow it to burn in for 150 hrs,  regardless if the fuse has been used,  the fuse in question here has not been used for week's, that said,  to finalize a impression, it would be fair to do so. 

Could the varying opinions in concern of the SR fuse sound have anything to do with a quality control issue? How and why these fuses can be so "hit or miss" would lead me to believe so. Maybe an SR rep could chime in here,adding some technical merit to the convo. At least it could clear up some thoughts on the matter of why there is such a sound discrepancy,especially when the fuses are being used in some same exact components.

The "quality control" issue here is the human ear and how different people perceive things differently.

I'd put my money on what p59 said.

Its not exactly "hit or miss."  I one were to read through all 21 pages of this thread, one would find that the vast majority of posters have had a positive experience from these SR fuses. 

I would not pay hundreds of dollars for what I've heard so far.  So not a hit here quite yet.   

bondmanp:

Congratulations on ordering a Synergistic Black fuse. If possible leave it on 24/7 for 3 to 4 days and then do some on and off cycles. Then over the next week let go of listening to this or that change and just enjoy the music. 
with a 30 day trial there is not a need to be in a big rush .

gbmcleod:

In the past I had a PS Audio Power Plant Premier. I find it fascinating that these PS Audio products that regenerate a " better quality power current" respond at all to changes in incoming power cords, what type of footers they are on, and even fuses. But they do!. There is a significant sonic difference in the changes in the RED versus Black fuse.  I am glad you have added to our fuse knowledge data bank about the best sounding fuse in a PS Audio Power Regenerator.

aolmrd1241:

Actually the reported improvement rate using either the Synergistic Research RED or Black fuse is extremely high. In most situations people have found the RED fuse to be a significant improvement over a stock fuse and also an improvement over other aftermarket fuses such as Isoclean, Furutech, etc. I think it is interesting that the Black fuses  in the nine (!) audio devices, I have installed them in have all had a major improvement in the sound. Each component was tried with stock fuse, then RED fuse, and then Black fuse. All fuses were broken in over 100hrs . All fuses were checked  for best insertion direction. I was meticulous in this process. This approach required putting an extra 300 + hours on the  KR PX-25 Tubes which cost about $800.00

The RED fuses is much better than a stock fuse and the Black fuse gives an even greater change. 

With the Synergistic Research 30 day return policy I think this is the most fun and rewarding upgrade an audiophile can do. No matter what the outcome you learn a lot about your system's sound. If you do not like the change you send the fuse back.

David Pritchard

I don’t buy the idea of perception. As experienced audiophiles,we live and breath this hobby. If such a huge group can hear a significant difference[including me] then I would say that the fuse is doing what it was intended to do by design. That leads me to think something 'could' be amiss in QC.

Also worth noting that since nobody knows how this fuse works its magic or why it is quite possible that results vary widely case by case. Nobody knows otherwise.  Perception is clearly always in the equation but all gear is different as are fuses being replaced. Its a pot shot, hit or miss, call it whatever as best I can tell.

How can anybody state that the fuse will always work when nobody  can explain why?   There is no basis for that.    Its a potshot at best.  If it sounds like a winning proposition then go for it.   Just put the dern thing in and enjoy it.   If you enjoyed your gear pre-fuse you will after as well most likely.   Maybe more just knowing that very nice fuse is in there.

Skeptics generally take the opportunity once they have no luck with a particular tweak to take pot shots at everyone else who did have good results. It’s all part of the wonderful game we call audio. I suggest we throw away the outliers and keep the line moving along. The results of one test is simply a data point on the curve. If there is a data point way off the curve it’s an outlier and can be thrown away. The problem with the theory that results vary widely for fuses is that’s not actually true. Results are almost always good. It’s your result that’s the outlier. Thus, there’s really no call for all the angst regarding the high cost of tweaks, the wide variation in results, fuse bashing, yadda yadda yadda.

No place for skeptics in Machina Dynamica world.


GEoff note: I am actually using the fuse.   So am I still a "skeptic"?

Are you using the fuse?   Have you heard the results.  OR are you just strawmanning?   

One thing for sure is you are a vendor selling products that have many skeptics.  I understand your pain.  :^)

GEoff have you specifically used SR Red or Black fuse, the topic of this discussion?

Are you saying all "audiophile" fuses perform the same?


If so what differences did you hear?

Talking about other products or fuses and using that as basis for the particular products in question is a strawman argument. If that’s the best you can do then so be it. Nothing wrong with that other than it means essentially nothing in the context of this discussion about SR fuses.

Man, this popcorn is really good. :-)

Better get Al here to mediate the situation 

21 pages…man...The reason "results are always good" is very likely due to the fact that with subjective listening to something that cost you 10 times what it replaced, you're going to really try to hear a difference. Tossing out the skeptics as "outliers" is dangerous to the credibility of the otherwise enthusiastic supporters of any mysterious tweak, and promotes an atmosphere that makes any logical questioning of these fuses (like my utterly ignored "fuse holder" question from about 600 posts ago) an exercise in futility. Maybe this entire thread is an experiment in cult development as all the signs are there: Embrace mystery and magic, don't tolerate questioning of the positive opinions by the uninitiated, ridicule dissent, and comments by those who refuse to join the flock must be discredited as heretical…maybe I'm too rebellious as I tend to stick with my instincts, and my instinct still tells me to avoid herd mentality in all things especially those with suspicious or personally illogical underpinnings.

maybe I’m too rebellious as I tend to stick with my instincts, and my instinct still tells me to avoid herd mentality in all things especially those with suspicious or personally illogical underpinnings.

No herd mentality? Hmm, well you are a wolf, right, not a sheep? :^)

Back to the important stuff...

Has anyone experienced a change in sound relative to the position of the black dot on the fuses?

Do you prefer the dot to face the floor, the ceiling, or slanted to either side?

Oh boy. Here we go.

Call me a bad person but I am dot agnostic personally.

I also think I need to find some new interests.  These fuses are like a black hole.   Even the red ones.

^^^ Excellent question, sgordon1. 

According to Warren Gehl at ARC, the position of the fuse in rotation does indeed affect the sound. Now that you've reminded me of that little factoid, we all have more work to do. :-)

wolf-garcia ...

Did those shots come from the "grassy knoll?" Was Jack Ruby really a CIA agent?? Is this entire thread is an experiment in cult development???

The Strawmen are flying now..... :^)

Let's get Warren on this thread if someone at ARC can add insight to the SR fuses.

If someone else is interested in trying the 3A slo blo Red fuse OP sent me let me know.   I'll forward it on if OK with OP.    Otherwise I will pop it back in and give it some more time.   Or return it to OP if he can use a spare.   Its not doing much for me so far.  Maybe others will have more luck.

Mapman, I'm just curious if you can hear differences in cables and different feet under components. I'm not be negative just that some people can't hear slight differences or even care about them.

Mapman, the reason for the above post is that these fuses made way more of a difference to me in my system than the differences in many cables.

Better get Al here to mediate the situation.

I'll have to admit that when it comes to mediating disagreements with Geoff, staunch defender of the faith when it comes to unexplainable and seemingly implausible tweaks, that my reconciliatory abilities approach a nullity.

:-)

Regards,
-- Al
 

Al wrote,

"I’ll have to admit that when it comes to mediating disagreements with Geoff, staunch defender of the faith when it comes to unexplainable and seemingly implausible tweaks, that my reconciliatory abilities approach a nullity."

I’ll let you off the hook. But not before I point out that aftermarket fuses are not unexplainable. Although I can certainly appreciate why Skeptics prefer to make it look that way, along with associating the poor little misunderstood Mr. Fuse with things that really are unexplainable and seemingly implausible. You know, things that go bump in the night. We’ve already listed many reasons why aftermarket fuses should sound better than ordinary stock fuses. Hel-looo!  You can rest easy, no Laws of Physics have been broken, including quantum mechanics.

geoff kait
machina dramatica
we do artificial atoms right

jwm

Yes at least in some cases.

I have dnm reson, harmonic tech and mit ics and i always hear a clear difference between these.

Note these three are each very different designs and the sound reflects that. Some ICs are more similar than different and I would not expect to hear as much if any difference in those cases.

Regarding feet under components, yes, always when called for with a turntable in particular. Also isolating stands or platforms under speakers when resting on lively flooring like suspended plywood. I’d recommend that to anyone. No difference with same if solid concrete foundation.

The difference between these tweaks and the fuses though is the fuses are essentially a black box with little info to work with regarding how they work or when they are most effective or not. So its a potshot/hit or miss. Almost every tweak enhancement has known dependencies that determine effectiveness. You are shooting totally blind until you try with fuses. That’s really the only objection I have and why I would not recommend them to others. There is nothing to base saying they will work or not on other than what I hear. Each case could be quite different and results vary as we are seeing here.


Here’s a thread I started recently recapping relative effectiveness of tweaks for myself and others who post.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/most-effective-tweaks-2

There is no reason to expect everyone will agree on effectiveness of any specific tweak because results almost always depends on other external factors and people try different things depending on their needs and goals.

I order full set up on black fuses, in my set-up good difference. I sell on ebay Red fuse + Wa chips.

Mapman wrote,

"The difference between these tweaks and the fuses though is the fuses are essentially a black box with little info to work with regarding how they work or when they are most effective or not. So its a potshot/hit or miss. Almost every tweak enhancement has known dependencies that determine effectiveness. You are shooting totally blind until you try with fuses. That’s really the only objection I have and why I would not recommend them to others. There is nothing to base saying they will work or not on other than what I hear. Each case could be quite different and results vary as we are seeing here."

So you keep saying. Actually in case you weren’t paying attention and as I just commented to Al, we have already listed many reasons why fuses should work. In addition, I just listed four reasons why audiophiles sometimes don’t get good results from tweaks. I suspect what we actually have here is a full blown case of the Backfire Effect and no, I’m not referring to eating too many Boston baked beans. Besides we are actually NOT seeing what you say, "results vary as we are seeing here." What we ARE seeing is everyone else getting good results and you, who didn't get good results.  So as we say in the biz, your statement is pretty much of a, you guessed it, Strawman argument. 

From Rational Wiki

The backfire effect occurs when, in the face of contradictory evidence, established beliefs do not change but actually get stronger. The effect has been demonstrated experimentally in psychological tests, where subjects are given data that either reinforces or goes against their existing biases - and in most cases people can be shown to increase their confidence in their prior position regardless of the evidence they were faced with.

As they say in France, the more things change the more they stay the same.

Just ordered a pair of SR Blacks for the CD /SACD player. 

Yep. And Jeb Bush should have won the republican presidential nomination as well.

I did not get the results expected. That’s a fact, not a strawman argument. Others did so I am glad for them.  

Why is Geoff so determined to discredit my findings?   Its just one data point.   I guess he gives it special weighting.   I am honored.

Based on The results and responses on this thread the positive to negative ratio of success is about 10 or 12 to 1.  That represents overwhelming success, The neutral or negative results are quite rare.
charles,

I think I recall at least 2, but who's counting....

Look, bottom line is you get a 30 day return period, right, so you can return it if not worth it by then.  So there you go.    No risk really to try.   Please just be honest and report your results here either way.   Don't let anyone intimidate you.

Mopman wrote,

"Please just be honest and report your results here either way. Don’t let anyone intimidate you."

Oh, brother, this is getting weirder and weirder. In any case it looks like you're on your own, Scooter.

I was stating a "ratio" not actual count. IOW, 30 positive/3 negative =10 to 1 for an example.
charles,

A few words on evaluating the Synergistic research fuses. Think of fuses as being part of a system. Changing one fuse in a system is not going to result in the mind blowing results that some have experienced. Let us say you are a farmer downstream a river with 8 dams. Removing the first dam will result in a a small increase in water flow at your downstream location,
but the water will flow freely only when all 8 dams have been cleared.
About a year ago I installed red fuses in my system. 2 in my SACD player, one in my preamp and 4 in my power amp. The benefits were immediate and awesome. After a few weeks it improved even more. It is not surprising that the most assured voice in this forum is David Pritchard who installed  13 fuses  in his system. It is only when the last fuse is upgraded that the
full benefits of the upgrade will be fully release. Take my word for this.

"Oh, brother, this is getting weirder and weirder. In any case it looks
like you're on your own, Scooter."

Good news for me that you are not on my side at least.