For adjustability the Zesto Andros Allasso is among the most versatile, but you pay over $2,500 for that adjustability of gain and loadings. I have this SUT in my main system and it’s a nice unit.
For my second system I bought a used Rothwell MCX for $270 to pair with a Hana SL (0.5mv) and it's truly a great pairing it is. The Rothwell uses a Lundahl transformer and provides 20dB gain which is perfect for me. There are so many carts on the market (including Kleos) that are about 0.5mv and like ~400ohm loading that I sometimes wonder if I purchased too much flexibility with the Zesto.
Of the Bob’s Device I think the SKY20 is the one I’d get with it’s 1:10 and 1:20 configuration which would fit most of my foreseeable needs. |
Cinemag, then Bob but personally I prefer the FET in the front end of my Herron to deal w my Lyra.
I have not heard the Zesto, but i have heard the preamp and they have ears and build great sounding gear…. |
I have four SUT’s: Bellari, Denon and two custom-builds using vintage mic transformers. Presently one of the custom jobs is paired with the Coral 777 Sleeping Beauty lomc on the FR29 arm/Ariston RD11 TT. All these SUT’s have there own "flavor" - they all sound "good"! The Bellari was bought new and was the most expensive. The Denon is in use with the Denon 103R on the Pioneer PLX1000 TT. Previously it was used with the Bellari. The other three came from eBay sellers and averaged ~$200 each. So no need to spend a lot of money! I like to have a variety to play with different lomc cartridges! |
I use Hashimoto HM-3 and Cinemag 1251.
I am quite familiar with other SUT Brands and Head Amp's used within my own system and other owned systems.
All my experiences I have taken part in will allow for me to detect that a SUT will add a richness to a replay. Even though this trait is difficult to detect on certain Brands of SUT, it is a noticeable trait when a SUT is A/B compared to a Head Amp'.
I have to date not heard a SUT that has a comparable transparency that a Head Amp' can produce.
In my system I am comfortable with each presentation and at present feel that the Cinemag 1251 has the Interface and Presentation that is most suited to my preference, it has a design that enables it to project the Upper Mid's and produce a very controlled Tight Bass Note. |
It is sometimes said that an SUT should be matched to the cartridge (or the other way around).
The reason typically given is the need to have an appropriate amount of SUT gain to bring the cartridge's output up to a level that is comfortable for the chosen phono stage.
However, there is another less-known but equally important reason, which is that the low frequency bandwidth and phase response of the SUT depend on both the inductance of the SUT's primary windings, and the net impedance that the primary windings will see, according to the following formula:
f = Z/(2*Pi*L)
where f is the frequency where the amplitude is 3dB down compared to higher frequencies,
L (in henries) is the inductance of the SUT's primary windings
Z (in ohms) is the net impedance
The inductance of the SUT's primary windings should be measured with the secondary windings left open. (Note that a completed SUT may contain internal load resistors across the secondary windings, therefore it is risky to assume that simply because the SUT is not connected to a phono stage, the secondary windings are truly open.)
"Net impedance" in this particular situation means the phono cartridge's source (self) impedance, in parallel with the impedance that is reflected back from the SUT's secondary windings (when connected to a suitable phono stage). Usually the net impedance will be dominated by the cartridge's source impedance.
The mathematical formula tells us that in order to improve the low-frequency capabilities our options are to lower the source impedance (choose a cartridge with less self-impedance), increase the primary inductance of the SUT (increase the number of transformer windings, increase the dimensions of the transformer core, or use a higher-permeability material for the transformer core).}
In a nutshell, the larger the self-impedance of a cartridge, the more primary inductance will be required from the transformer in order to keep the same low-frequency extension or phase response.
Conversely, if the cartridge has small self-impedance, less primary inductance will be needed for sufficient low-frequency extension or phase response.
Although the target frequency for "f" in the formula above could conceivably be set to the lowest frequency expected to be reproduced, if good phase linearity is likewise a goal, this will require a considerably lower target frequency.
Caveat: although good low-frequency performance from a transformer requires sufficient primary inductance, since high inductance (in the form of more turns, or more wire length per turn, or higher-permeability core materials) tends to pose problems for high-frequency performance, single-mindedly selecting a transformer with as much primary inductance as possible, isn't recommended either.
Summary: When choosing an SUT, be sure that the gain is appropriate for the output level your phono cartridge.
Also be sure that the SUT's primary inductance is suitable for the coil impedance of your cartridge.
When connecting a SUT and phono stage together, try to choose as low-capacitance cable as possible, using as short lengths as possible.
Generally SUTs work better with low-impedance cartridges.
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@jcarr thanks for the detailed response. When you say low impedance what number are you looking for?
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I forgot to add that I have a fifth SUT on hand: a pair of Sony ST10’s that are the smallest I’ve ever seen. They are square cross-section, about two inches long, an RCA plug at each end - one male and one female. They are each a single channel and plug directly into a phono stage’s RCA jacks. Amplification factor of 10X. No ground wires. Rather neat! Bought from an eBay seller for $175. |
One of the nice things about SUT's is that they are passive devices and hardly subject to aging under normal use. And the 'technology' hasn't changed much, if at all. This means you can buy used without hardly any risk at all.
There are two 'big' choices you have to make:
- copper or silver wire for the transformers. Silver is obviously more expensive, but not necessarily better (very dependent on the cartridge)
- a dedicated unit for a specific impedance range or one with a selector switch to accomodate a wider variety of cartridges (usually choice between low impedance (typically 3-6 ohm) and high impedance (20-30). People usually prefer dedicated units, because the selectability involves extra switching.
There are many great ones out there, but a good choice for copper wired SUT is Entré ET-200 for 2-10 ohms (3,5 ohms ideal) and 30dB gain, designed by Matsudaira of My Sonic Lab. This is not a rare unit and regularly for sale around $600-700. The current My Sonic Lab SUT will not be much different except for the price.
A good choice for silver wired SUT is the Ortofon series for their '000' series MC's, the T-2000, 3000, 5000 and 7500. They all have the same specs (impedance range 3-6 ohms, 30dB gain), except T-2000 which has even higher gain to accomodate the ultra low output MC-2000. These nits can be found between $1000-1500 and are definitely worth it when compared to the 'adventurous' pricing of silver wired SUT's made today.
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I got my 1st MC cartridge not long ago, and after research and advice here, went with this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/164633673789?hash=item2654ee803d:g:WLUAAOSwcnVf-M6Sthey are getting expensive, and harder to find a. PASS lets you use it for a MM or MC High Output thru it, bypassing the transformer b. 3 inputs, front selectable, then off to a single MM Input. c. 4 optional x-factors/impedance loads, for my first, and future MC cartridges (front switchable, not rear or internal dip switch changes). ........................................................... This model, FRT-5, has 3 inputs, PASS, and it’s Transformer is designed for MC cartridges in a range of 3 to 10 ohms https://www.ebay.com/itm/334079978776?hash=item4dc8b7ed18:g:iNcAAOSwPNpg8nR7................................... Entre ET-100; 3 inputs, PASS, 3 Optional Loads, front switch https://www.ebay.com/itm/393529405956?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item5ba02e3204:g:XHcAAOSwHmlhJMuD&..................................... Denon, 2 inputs, PASS, 2 optional loads https://www.ebay.com/itm/393583791431?hash=item5ba36c0d47:g:jrAAAOSwug5hR7ZR |
not snark, but in my experience more than a few audiophiles don't much care about phase. I do.
nice to have Jonathan weigh in.
@pindac there is a lot of wisdom in your post re; system matching and synergy
best to all, excellent thread |
Lots of great responses. I really appreciate it!
Peter |
JCarr, thank you for the erudite post. For most of us, the needed gain is easily estimated, and the internal impedance of the cartridge is available from the maker, but I know of no instance where the primary inductance of the SUT is accessible to the end user. How does one acquire that data point? |
Cinemag publish that as i recall, unless tgere is a hidden R lurking…. |
auditorium23 make a very highly rated SUT for low output MCs |
@jasonbourne52 gives good advice in terms of trying different devices to dip your toes in. I got a Denon AU-320 for around $200 -- and it has brought phenomenal performance-for-$ results. And like someone else mentioned, these items don't particularly age or wear out (yes yes, some exceptions like oxidization can happen).
You may well end up with one of the true high end and exceptional SUTs... but won't it be fun to begin with a lower-risk option such as a used SUT for just $200-250, and then see where the journey takes you? And if you are looking at $2k+ SUTs later on, that's really just a rounding error in total cost and will make a fun comparison :) |
Bobs gives you the best sound. I have compared many more expensive SUT but the Bobs just sounds better. |
May be a stupid question but if you have a phone stage which pro ides 65db and has multiple options for loading ohms as well as settings for both MC and MM why would you need a SUT? I have Manley Chinook phono pre amp and am curious?
Thank you
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w that much gain you do not unless you like the sound of miles of wire…only slight hyperbole in trade for what is likely a FET input.
one popular trade is a lower gain all tube combined w SUT. |
I only have limited experience with SUT's, auditioned an Ortofon SUT once but unfortunately, there was a gain mismatch with my then AT33 PTGii cart so I wasn't convinced that adding one would be an advantage. Then, a very experienced audio buddy of mine told me about http://www.acoustic-dimension.com/silk-audio/silk-audio-supermalloy-mc-220A-step-up-transformer--pag...Made in Thailand, the few reviews I chanced across online were encouraging, pricing also made it attractive. Bought it blind and based only on that one recommendation and it turned out to be a great addition to my analog chain. I've compared the Silk SUT with the MC section of my phono pre (which uses permalloy transformers) many times and hands down using a SUT into the MM stage of phono smokes it every single time. |
I currently run the Bob’s Devices 1:20/1:40 with the Denon 103R and a Hana Mono SL; an Icon Audio 1:10 with the Hana ML; and the Miyajima ETR Mono with Zero’s and Infinity. The Miyajima does have a switch to select impedence in addition to primarily and secondary coil taps. Between the three I would call Bobs Devices the most transparent, the Icon Audio the most lush, and the Miyajima the most compete. If the Miyajima Stereo fits, that’s where I would go.
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I recently picked up a SUT from Ned Clayton for my Denon 103R. Cinemag 3440AH transformers with four winding ratios - 1:9, 1:12, 1:18 and 1:36. Quality product and was reasonable at under $400. He has an eBay store where you can browse what is for sale or email him directly. |
70s era Mitch Cotter strapable transformer like i have LOL?
(but am not presently using since I'm in the hell of trouble shooting a configurable FET/BJT cost effective module- noise gremlins lurk everywhere when the effective gain from the needle to the speaker is 20,000X)
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I run a Bob's Devices Cinemag Sky40 with my SPU's and an Auditorium A23 with my DL-103's |
I also bought a Silk Audio SUT from Thailand. They were very easy to work with in assembling a unit for me. (They also sell the transformers separately.) Mine looks and sounds great!
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Dear @snackeyp : In good shape: why do you want to degrade the valuable and sensitive cartridge signal ?
There is no way that your Kleos can in any way sounds with better quality level through a SUT in your system when you own a very good phono preamp that handled any LOMC cartridge.
When you add a SUT to your specific system you are adding an additional stage with severe limitations in frequency range against your KTE unit and other issues down there but additional you need to use an IC cable with additional connectors at both ends of the cable from where the cartridge signal must travel through and in all that " travel " the signal is degrading and developing additional ( every kind. ) distortions: you are contaminating that beloved MUSIC signal.
Yes, through the SUT will sounds different and probably you can like it but what you like it is a true inferior quality level.
The SUT " party " of other gentlemans here is with all respect a party where you don't need to participate, their system specific needs are different from yours.
Anyway you can try and can participate too in the " party ". Is your call.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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@rauliruegas,
On this one I respectfully disagree:
I run a Zyx Universe through a Zyx Artisan stage. When inserting an Altec TBB-103 based SUT that Bob made it gives a substantial leap in performance: faster, more soundstage and definition of instruments. Ruling out SUTs as a way of improving vinyl playback contradicts what many cartridge designers are saying. |
There is no way that your Kleos can in any way sounds with better quality level through a SUT in your system when you own a very good phono preamp that handled any LOMC cartridge.
When you add a SUT to your specific system you are adding an additional stage with severe limitations in frequency range against your KTE unit and other issues down there but additional you need to use an IC cable with additional connectors at both ends of the cable from where the cartridge signal must travel through and in all that " travel " the signal is degrading and developing additional ( every kind. ) distortions: you are contaminating that beloved MUSIC signal. Well, since I’m in the middle of refining a MC/MM (jumper it to your liking) RIAA gain stage design I’ll bite. You think a gain stage, amplifying a 0.05-0.5mV signal by another 10-20X has no distortion? Do you realize how lower the power supply noise must be? Or how high the PSRR must be to make that irrelevant (which takes some doing)? I will take two wires and a rally, really good transformer any day. Now you may ask "so why are you designing a low noise gain stage?" - answer: simplicity and cost. A good SUT (hate that acronym) is quite costly and heavy and somewhat complicated for many reasons that are peppered throughout this discussion. I’m no necessarily arguing for a SUT, but i’m also not convinced that the active stage is a no brainer. Mitch Cotter agreed, and he was no mathematical slouch. G |
I think in a perfect world @rauliruegas is correct...the goal is to simplify the signal path and not add a SUT if at all possible. The problem is that unless you're using a top-tier SUT there is a good chance that a quality SUT combined with the MM-stage may outperform the onboard MC stage. I have seen this in many of my phono stages but I've never owned a truly high-end phono. A/B comparisons in my gear history shows improvements to SQ when using a SUT. |
Not to be difficult, but to get everyone on board with the simple facts rather than vague goals of "simple signal path":
how does replacing many active components with one passive component, that in fact performs an impedance transformation rather than delivering pure voltage again, "simplify" the signal path??? In my view it vastly complicates it.
if you think an MC RIAA stage is a single stage, you are generally mistaken. It's a bunch of gain stages -and from MC to line in, typically three, with each having multiple active devices. Both the aggregate gain and number of stages can be reduced by placing the RIAA filters in the feedback loop of quite a hgih gain and complex stage, but now we have introduced a complex, global feedback loop which i personally find undesireable.
vs ONE passive device. yea, it has complications too, but its much simpler.
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@itsjustme Excellent points! |
Dear @antigrunge2 : I’m with you because it’s what you are listening but with all respect to ZYX and obviously to you if the Artisan+SUT outperforms the Artisan MC stage then what you need is not a SUT but a better phono stage design. The Artisan has to many gain stages ( 4 ), not very good RIAA deviation with a 0.4db swing: to high, input resistor wound by hand by ZYX: sorry again those resistors can’t compare its quality levels to Vishay or Caddok that are non-inductive like the ZYX ones. I can’t argue against what you like and only point out some " high-ligths " that came from its design. Take a look to the KTE MK1 ( the OP owns the MK5 that’s way better yet. ) that is the Valav LCR 1 in this shoot-out: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/LCR-RIAA-shootout.htma picture of the MK5: https://www.kitsunehifi.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/LCR1-MK5-3-scaled.jpgEngineering design level, parts selection design, circuit boards design and excecution quality of that design makes a difference in active high gain phono stages. Not all are almost the same. R. |
+++ for the Clayton products mentioned above when going the SUT route to bliss |
My own experience seems to suggest that things are not as simple as an active device being better than a passive one or vice versa. The interaction with the cartridge strongly determines the outcome.
This comes from extensive comparisons made with a Boulder 1008 phono amp. It has two inputs, so for this purpose one input was switched to MC and the other to MM, adding a SUT in the signal path. So basically I was comparing the MC gain stage of the 1008 with a SUT, all else equal. While the 1008 is not the best available, it's a competent solid state design without too many corners cut.
For me the outcome was undecided and simply depends on the cartridge. I've compared dozens of low impedance MC's with mixed results, but generally speaking Ortofon SPU, FR 7, Ikeda 9 and Miyabi seem to prefer a SUT in the signal path (with some preferring silver wire over copper wire and vice versa), while Ortofon A95, MC Anna and Transfiguration Proteus sounded much better with active amplification. Others were much less pronounced in their preference.
So what does this tell you? It all depends and you have to listen. That really helps, doesn't it?
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"you have to listen" . Halleluja! :-) parts quality and construction matter (paraphrased) halleluja! beyond that, i have repeated said here that things like power supplies, coupling strategies, smart parts selection (don't get me going on boutique parts),layout etc. make a bigger difference than he basic device selection or circuit topology which get all the hype. I'm always amazed when i can do a tube and FET device, or an R2R vs PWM DAC, and can hardly tell them apart, if at all. |
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My phono stage came with a built in SUT, so I haven't fooled around much with different SUT. I tried a super expensive Audio Note SUT feeding the phono stage in my preamp, but, I could never sufficiently ameliorate hum, so I haven't used that built-in phono stage.
A friend uses the Jensen SUT mentioned by audioguy85 in his homemade phono stage and this phono stage sounds very good. I believe that Jensen SUT is also used in the quite pricey Zanden phono stages as well. It certainly is worth consideration.
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Dear @itsjustme : " You think a gain stage, amplifying a 0.05-0.5mV signal by another 10-20X has no distortion? Do you realize how lower the power supply noise must be? "
To your first question I don’t posted " has no distortion " and for the second question yes " I realize " because I have first hand experience in the overall/whole design and manufacture of a top phonolinepreamp that today can compete bis a bis CH, Vitus, SimAudio, Gryphon, Dan D’Agostino, Dartzeel, etc, etc and where no all tube unit including Lamm can't touch it.
"" also not convinced that the active stage is a no brainer. ""
As I said it depends of the whole design. Our phonolinepreamp is an active high gain SS fully balanced/differential true dual mono input to output, inverse RIAA eq. with measured deviation of 0.015db both channels ( includes a switchable Neumann corner. ), class A amp, non-feedback, four layers circuit boards, all input/output connectors soldered directly to the circuit boards ( no single wire here. ), external dual mono power supply and a third for the logic card, bipolar devices for the dedicated MC stages and FET for the dedicated MM stages, matched and hand selected active/passive parts, very wide overload margin, true low noise, a stand alone logic card with its own power supply, etc, etc, etc.
R. |
I have both Ortofon T-20 and Ortofon T-30. The T-20 (2ohms) is perfect for Ortofon MC20 mk-2 and I exclusively use it with it. The T-30 has a variable impedance selectable through a knob from 3-36 ohms (not continuous). Happy with both of them. I have used the T-30 with Dynavector 23R as well as Technics 305 and I find if you use the correct load the sound is not colored and frequency response is not affected. Thanks @jcarr for a scientific explanation. |
Correction. Ortofon T-30 is 3-48 ohms. |
Our phonolinepreamp is an active high gain SS fully
balanced/differential true dual mono input to output, inverse RIAA eq.
with measured deviation of 0.015db both channels ( includes a switchable
Neumann corner. ), class A amp, non-feedback, four layers circuit
boards, all input/output connectors soldered directly to the circuit
boards ( no single wire here. ), external dual mono power supply and a
third for the logic card, bipolar devices for the dedicated MC stages
and FET for the dedicated MM stages, matched and hand selected
active/passive parts, very wide overload margin, true low noise, a stand
alone logic card with its own power supply, etc, etc, etc.
Wow, all that when a carefully matched step up transformer will meet or exceed a very expensive active stage.
There are different ways to accomplish the goal of raising a less than milli-volt signal to the input level that a MM phono stage is happy with. Some prefer a SUT like me and some prefer active gain stages like you.
A quality SUT will do the job very well and need not cost a fortune. Companies like Denon (Engineering firm and cartridge designers) and Cinemag (Altec Peerless based designs) have been around a very long time and have a proven track record. Look carefully at the specs, what deficiency's are causing all these distortions?
I'm sure a high end active gain stage can perform well if properly engineered and manufactured with quality components. But for the price of that I can buy several SUT and cartridges. I also prefer to have a simple audio path, one passive component verses dozens of active components.
BillWojo
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Bob’s SUTs are great for the money.
My favorites :- Thrax Trajan
Ypsilon
Auditorium
Audio Note UK
Kondo Audio Note.
You asked for the best, there you go.
All of those work with my Lyra Atlas Lambda SL.
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You can read Arthur Salvatore’s reviews here. He’s comparing many great SUTs, but find his thoughts on ZYX Headamp: "This is, most likely, the finest head-amp I’ve ever heard. I state this because it is competitive with the finest transformers I’ve had, while all the many other (external) head-amps I’ve heard are simply not in that league. The ZYX head-amp is a solid-state device! It is highly unusual for a successful cartridge manufacturer to also design and build an audio component that is so different in fundamental nature (non-mechanical in this instance), with such excellent performance. The relevant details..." -
Arthur Salvatore
If you want to see what’s inside the ZYX CPP-1 look at the images in my system. Battery powered headamp with special resistors that looks like an MC cartridge coil (I was shocked to see that). Resistors made by ZYX to transfer the output signals with no noise and no inductance at all. They are made of pure coil wire of MC cartridges, cryogenic purified. I remember it was highly regarded by Arthur Salvatore who compared it to some of the best SUTs ever made. |
A coil inevitably has inductance. However there are some tricks of winding that can minimize it, as in Mills resistors. Otherwise wirewound resistors are inductive. It’s the law. |
Email Dave at Intact Audio, tell him about your preamp, cart, etc and he will wind SUT(s) to suit your needs. Not cheap (especially if you request silver wire) but custom wound to your cart/pre
Best,
-JP |
A coil inevitably has inductance. However there are some tricks of winding that can minimize it, as in Mills resistors. Otherwise wirewound resistors are inductive. It’s the law. Might be a special trick, description about inductance is from the manual @lewm |
Don't ignore the Hagerman Piccolo 2 head amp. Dead quiet and cheap at around $300. Replaced a transformer in one system that was hard to keep from humming. |
If the phono stage has gain settings up to 60 or 65DB in addition to impedence selections for cartridge flexibility, why do you need an SUT? It would seem logical that more connectors introduce more distortion.
If you are talking about an SUT instead of a phono stage because the impedence is already well suited or in addition a phono stage that has no gain capability, then I guess it makes sense.
Am I missing something? |
It would seem logical that more connectors introduce more distortion.
distortion that you can't detect |
I have a Dynavector SUT, was hard to find, even harder to get documentation like a users manual (from dynavector that is) and expensive. But oh so nice, quiet, smooth, detailed and lush. Of course that’s with a Dynavector XX2, and run thru my McIntosh MX110Z. Highly recommended.. |
sokogear, I think you have a pretty good handle on the situation. Never heard one myself so only know what turned up after a ton of research. These things are transformers, very specialized transformers at that, and so they are more a way of tweaking or fine tuning the cartridge than anything else. There are whole websites devoted to the subject, with in depth reviews of far more different SUT than one would think even exist! Never even knew so many were out there until I started digging into it.
This sets up the perfect situation for some to be able to say the SUT is essential and others to say forget it what a waste, and both be right. Because if you luck onto one of them that is really good for your particular cartridge and phono stage then boy oh boy will you be happy. But you could just as easily wind up with nothing or worse, a royal headache.
The sensible approach I think is what Decware does, make a phono stage designed for high output carts, and then offer SUT in various gains to suit different MC outputs. You can also trade them back in for another in case you need to for cartridge changes. This avoids yet another pitfall of SUT, trying to sell for used something hardly anyone wants to buy new. Take a bath, you will! |
