I am currently in research mode. I want to add a SUT to my set-up but I am finding that there is not a lot of information from my local audio shop resources. It seems that SUTs are outliers in the high end audio world. That said, I have read several articles in magazines and the web touting their merits. Of all the brands out there I am most familiar with Bob's Devices. Art Dudley wrote many good things about his experiences with Bob's SUTs, and I happen to trust Art (God rest his soul), but I'm wondering if there are others I should consider as well. Please post your recommendations if you have experience with any SUTs, regardless of brand. As for my set-up, I have a SME 20/2 turntable, Tri-Planer tone arm, Lyra Kleos cartridge, and KTE LCR Mk5 Phono preamp. I do not know if I will always use a Kleos cartridge but I do think I will always buy low output MC carts. I hope to buy something that will work with low output MCs but have some adjustability just in case. I'd love to hear your recommendations. Thanks! Peter
If the phono stage has gain settings up to 60 or 65DB in addition to impedence selections for cartridge flexibility, why do you need an SUT? It would seem logical that more connectors introduce more distortion.
@billwojo summed it up nicely. The reason you "might" want a SUT is because it may sound better. Passive SUT vs active gain stages in order to get to the 60-65dB gain. Transformers have much more benign distortion characteristics than active circuits and are capable of producing a wonderful soundstage with detail and separation compared to transistor and op-amp alternatives. The main issue really is cost - transformers are incredibly expensive compared to transistors and chips. A complete MC phonostage is obviously more convenient than a separate transformer and MM phonostage. The MC phonostage made entirely with solid-state circuitry is way cheaper to produce than one with transformers.
In every case I have heard I prefer the SUT....but that’s just me, my gear, and my ears. To each his own preference.
Anyway you slice it... (whether it be pure tubed, SUT/tube, FET/tube, and yes even with some solid state devices, etc... ) I truly believe that we should try and remember that we, as vinyl lovers, should all feel thankful and blessed that we have so many great and talented designers who are able to provide us with a plethora of fantastic options that are available to us at so many different price points that it allows us all to have the opportunity to be able to enjoy the great sonics that vinyl can provide :)
I do not understand how anyone would be able to categorically deny the worthiness of a component that they may have never even heard in their own system, simply because of a certain capacitor, wire, passive/active device, etc... that is being employed. I’ve always believed that the worthiness of a component is a combination of the entire circuit design and the sum of all the parts working together seamlessly vs just one sole aspect of the component in question... not to mention the importance of system synergy.
We are all individuals, with our own set of ears, with our own unique way of hearing sounds. We all have our own set of listening preferences and sonic priorities. What is important to one, may not be to another. But, what we all "mostly" have in common is the love of music and being able to reproduce that in our homes :)
I know that it is the opinion of many, that in order to have a high gain phono amp that it must have to be a Solid State or FET design or else there will be just too much noise. For those people I would suggest the Wavestream Kinetics Deluxe Phono Amp. I have admired Scott Frankland’s audio design work (phono, preamps, amplifiers) for decades but was never in a financial position to afford them. However, over the last couple of years, I have suffered 5 unexplained strokes and have recently been diagnosed with two cancerous tumors. I have come to realize that we may not get any mulligan’s in this game of life.
So, on Feb 17, I placed a deposit with Scott for his most recent Wavestream Kinetic Level 5.1 Reference phono amp. His phono amp has always been on my "bucket list". It is an all tube design currently using (2 x 12AX7, 4 x 6DJ8); with extremely low noise ( I believe with the external power supply, noise is below 1uV (one-millionth of a volt ); providing 3 front panel selectable inputs = two MC at 62 dB of gain (without the use of SUT’s or FETS) with a useful cartridge range of 0.2mV to 1.2mV and one MM output at 42dB (you are able to choose your MM gain or you can have 3 MC ); having both balanced and RCA inputs and outputs; adjustable loading available on the back panel via custom loading plugs; and an essentially flat RIAA EQ curve within one tenth of a dB (.1dB) from 3 Hz to 40 Khz. *** The above specs are from the best of my recollection - if you have interest, please consult with Scott Frankland to confirm. He is wonderful to communicate with. ***
It is very dynamic, both in the micro and macro sense, throughout the entire frequency range. It produces rich harmonics that are exhilarating when listening to violin/cello/acoustic bass, both reed and brass instruments, vocals, etc... all without sounding syrupy. It is extremely quite, plenty of gain and very pure sounding... due to not having to use any FET or Solid State devices, no need to use Step Up Transformers and their extra set of interconnects and connections or having to fight with hum issues.
It is a very well thought out design, by an extremely talented designer and a true gentleman who is absolutely fantastic to deal with, Mr Scott Frankland. I feel very blessed to be able to have this piece in my system. At $9K new, I feel it is an absolute steel. Once in a very great while, you might see one come up for sale on the used market, but not very often. I consider this to be a true testament to the greatness of this phono amp as people who own it, hang on to it. It is not a "flavor of the month" type piece, but rather something that you cherish and would like to pass on to your children.
In any case, just another excellent option to be considered :)
As for SUT's are concerned.... Not all SUT's are created equal. There are some great ones, and others that are not so great. I have a vintage Hirata Tango that has an exceptionally wide bandwidth with no ringing. When used with some phono stages ( that are not up to the same refined standard of my Wavestream ) the Tango can absolutely improve the sound of those phono stages. However, as nice as some SUT's can be, it is imperative that you match the SUT to your cartridge and phono stage. You can't just simply use multiple different cartridges with a single SUT. Just too many variables with gain, output, impedances, etc. You also have to contend with additional interconnects, possible hum issues, etc.
Wishing you all the very best of health, love and happiness! Don
My Hashimoto HM-3 has recently been on loan to the HiFi Group I am a member off. I missed a very recent meeting, where the HM-3 SUT was used in a demonstration with a Bespoke Built Head Amp. The differences in the performances were reported on as a follow up in an email chain. The Hashimoto has been claimed to have been mellow, relaxed and having a refined detail retrieval. I can concur using recollections of my experiences about the refined detail retrieval, I have noticed this myself when the SUT is in use.
The Head Amp has been claimed to have forward projection and airiness and incisive detail retrieval. I can concur using recollections of my experiences, that when I have used a Head Amp in my system, the projection and clarity/lucidity of the presentation is noticeable and differs from a SUT in this area.
My experience with SUT vs Head Amp demonstration in my system will show a SUT to have a hint of Richness when compared to a Head Amp. Are Mellow, Relaxed, Richness the same thing when different comments from different individuals are being offered about a SUT? Are Airiness and Incisive Detail Retrieval quite similar to clarity/lucidity when different comments from different individuals are being offered about a Head Amp ? Bear in mind another SUT 'might close the Gap' on the Airiness, but my experience is that SUT's add a hint of Richness, so the clarity/lucidity will be a harder gap to close in on. These are my thoughts on the matter based on my limited experiences.
If it is a must to get the presentation to meet the preferences of the end user and to be a satisfying long term experience, it is worthwhile experiencing each of the Designs (SUT vs Head Amp) to see how one is making an impact within a System.
I do not understand how anyone would be able to categorically deny the worthiness of a component that they may have never even heard in their own system, simply because of a certain capacitor, wire, passive/active device, etc... that is being employed. I’ve always believed that the worthiness of a component is a combination of the entire circuit design and the sum of all the parts working together seamlessly vs just one sole aspect of the component in question... not to mention the importance of system synergy.
Dear @edgewear : "
I've compared dozens of low impedance MC's with mixed results, but generally speaking Ortofon SPU, FR 7, Ikeda 9 and Miyabi seem to prefer a SUT in the signal path (with some preferring silver wire over copper wire and vice versa), while Ortofon A95, MC Anna and Transfiguration Proteus sounded much better with active amplification...""
Like you I did and do the same SUT vs active cartridge quality comparisons where both phono stages ( MC and MM ) has the same quality level performance.
I own and owned several SUTs and by coincidence two of them that I still have came by Entré, I own too the AT 1000T that is dedicated for the AT MC1000 cartridge that you own, I own too 2 modified by me Denon SUTs the 340 and the AU1000. I'm using this last for the latest comparisons. Here its unique characteristics:
Look its wide frequency range and its heavy weigth.
Well, any vintage and today cartridge performs really really good with the AU-1000 but overall can't even the high gain active stages quality performance levels in my phonolinepreamp. Yes, near but not match it.
Btw, if you can and due that you have not preference on these alternatives try to get the AU-1000.
As a fact I can live easily with the SUT in my system but the high gain active alternative is the ultimate way to go.
Of course that everything is dependent of the whole design quality levels of any active high gain unit.
@rauliruegas thanks for sharing. Both these units are highest quality and probably a 'step up' from the Ortofon T-3000 I'm using right now. But the Denon has only 21dB gain and not suitable for low impedance cartridges, so for me that's a no-no. The AT-1000T gained my interest after I acquired the AT-1000MC, while the added feature of accomodating both low impedance (3 ohm) and high impedance (20/40dB) MC's simultanuously is also interesting. Only 1000 made, so probably not easy to find at a reasonable price......
@edgewear : The Denon performs very good with any LOMC cartridge impedance I experienced, no single trouble whith that I been aware off. I even listening with the Ortofon MC2000 and due to its extreme low output I only heard some noise but nothing that avoid to listen to that cartridge, yes not confortable at all but other than that cartridge I never had and have any worry about impedance. I run the MM stage at 47k and at 100k and seems to me that works a little better at 100k.
Could be good for you and everyone to read next approach/explanation about SUTs:
This avoids yet another pitfall of SUT, trying to sell for used
something hardly anyone wants to buy new. Take a bath, you will!
That's why I buy used, if I get it at a good price and don't like it for what ever reason I can resell it and not lose anything. A popular or highly rated SUT advertised for a reasonable price usually gets snapped up pretty quickly. It's the odd balls that only work with a very limited cart selection that you need to find a buyer for.
@rauliruegas my remark was based on the specs of AU-1000. If the information I've seen is correct, it has an impedance range between 10-40 ohms (which seems rather wide) and 21dB gain. At least on paper this doesn't sit well with many low impedance / low output cartridges, most of which are around 3 ohms impedance and 0.25 mV output (at least the ones I'm familiar with).
But apparently things can work out differently in practice, as your experience with the Etna SL suggests. Good for you!
@edgewear : Not good for me because I owned for years the Denon AU-1000. Other owners or possible buyers have to know that works with no problem and not because I said it but because there is no technical reason why can’t do it .
Rigth now I’m enjoying the vintage LOMC Azden cartridge that has 0.25mv.
I tested dozens of vintage and today LOMC cartridges bis-bis using both: my active high gain and the Denon SUT and till today I never noted an anomaly or anomalies that could came for that impedance issue.
It would seem logical that more connectors introduce more distortion.
"distortion that you can't detect"
Agree!!
In the world of audio there is a huge gap between what should be and what really is.
When will audiophiles start to stop speculating about what (in theory) should happen and start taking into account the empirical results heard by the human ear?
Dionisofun you might not want to introduce logic on this forum. They have way to much fun doing what they do. It is as simple as does that sound like a real trumpet or tenor sax etc...Of course that is if real music is your goal.
"In the world of audio there is a huge gap between what should be and what really is." You nailed it!!!
Edgeware, I am puzzling over your saying ..."the Denon has only 21dB gain and not suitable for low impedance cartridges,..." First, 21 db of gain equates to a voltage gain of about 11-fold. So, it would provide more than adequate voltage gain for any LOMC with at least 0.4 to 0.5mV output, to drive a typical MM phono circuit with at least 40db of intrinsic gain. I don’t understand why you say it is not suitable for cartridges with low internal impedance, unless you know something about the inductance of the primary winding of the Denon, per the post by JCarr. With a typical MM input providing a 47K ohm load resistance, this Denon SUT would present the cartridge with about a 400 ohm load. Certainly that is OK for any LOMC, notwithstanding the issue of primary inductance. I actually think there is a bit too much hocus pocus surrounding the mating of a SUT to a cartridge on one side and the phono stage on the other. What you need to worry about is the voltage gain, which is related to the turns ratio of the SUT, the impedance seen by the cartridge, which needs to be about 10X or any ratio greater than 10X that of the internal resistance of the cartridge, and the inductance of the primary. Keep in mind also that a transformer essentially has NO impedance of its own; it only reflects an impedance from whatever is hooked to the secondaries back to whatever is hooked to the primaries, and vice-versa. In my opinion, the old custom of rating SUTs in "ohms" seems to be very confusing to a lot of people and really should be abandoned because it is not even informative. And finally, using a SUT gives up current in direct proportion to the voltage gain it affords. The product (voltage X current) is a constant on one side vs the other. If V goes up 10X, then current goes down 10X.
Mijo, Why are your wanting me to read about Sowter SUTs?
@lewm I probably should have refrained from making that statement, but allow me to explain where it came from. Most low impedance, low output MC's I use (various Ortofon's including SPU, FR7, Ikeda 9, Miyabi, etc.) have between 0.2 and 0.3 mV output. My MM phono input stage has 40dB gain, so using a 20dB SUT (or 21 in the case of the Denon) would bring the total gain to 60dB. I have tried several SUT's with 20dB gain in my system (but obviously not this Denon) and in all cases and at the same volume level these low output MC's sound more alive and musical using a SUT with 30dB gain (like the Entré ET-200 and Ortofon T-3000 I'm using now).
The specified impedance is perhaps less significant, but I've tried some of these low impedance cartridges with SUT's that offer switching between low (usually 3 ohms) and high impedance (20-40dB). To my ears using the high impedance setting on low impedance MC's sounds much inferior to the 'correct' setting, of course with the appropriate correction of the volume control.
That's what I've learned from making these comparisons. So, when Denon specifies 21dB gain and 10-40 ohms impedance range for the AU-1000 model, I'm inclined to think that this will not be the best choice for the cartridges I like. Perhaps the Denon flies in the face of that and I won't deny that possibility until I hear it myself.
I was looking at SUT’s a few months ago. I ended up contacting Andrew Rothwell at Rothwell Audio UK. He offers a range if his own SUT’s. He made it clear that it was essential to ensure that any SUT selected should suit both the cartridge and phono-stage it would be used with. i ended up purchasing the Rothwell MCL with 26db of gain. My phono-stage on the MM side had quite a low 36db of gain, so combined this gives me 62db of gain overall. That pretty much matched the 62db of gain from the MC side of my phono-stage.
i have been very pleased with the MCL and the performance from it. I was also very impressed by the helpful advice that I received from Andrew in helping me decide.
Dear @keswick : If you can try to change the default PS MM 47 impedance by 100k. If your system has the adequated resolution you will listen the benefits on that change.
Hi raulinuegas Thanks for your advice. i am currently running a DV 20x2L via my SUT and the MM side of my phono-stage. Unfortunately my phono-stage only has one fixed setting for MC and another for MM cartridges, so I am unable to alter it. So until I ever get around to upgrading the phono-stage for one that is adjustable I will have to live with what I have. Having said that, it does indeed sound very good as it is. What benefit would changing from 47k to 100k actually bring for my current cartridge do you think, or were you thinking that Ivwa# running a Koetsu ?
@keswick : One benefit is that the output voltage of the cartridge drops is a little lower than at 47k and could improve the signal to noise ratio. Yes, it's a minimum number about and we can or can't detect it and depending of the phono stage design 100k could help it..
@lewm , @mijostyn was undoubtedly trying to be helpful by linking to a page where a transformer winder (Sowter in this case) provides primary inductance data for one of their designs.
Starting from the Type 1480 page, it is specified for cartridges with coil impedances of 1~15 ohm, and its primary inductance is a fairly low 180mH. The accompanying frequency response curve is applicable when the source (cartridge coil) impedance is 3 ohm; and the frequency range is stated as "Essentially flat from 10Hz to 120kHz".
Next the Type 9570 page. Intended for cartridges with coil impedances of 1~100 ohm, its primary inductance is a far higher 1.9H (1900mH). The accompanying frequency response curve is applicable when the source (cartridge coil) impedance is 8 ohm; while the frequency range is stated as "+/- 1.0 dB 5Hz to 100kHz", instead of "Essentially flat from 10Hz to 120kHz" for the Type 1480.
Lastly we can look at the Type 1990 page, which has two primary coils to be connected either in series for 1:10 gain and 2000mH inductance, or in parallel with 1:20 gain and 250mH inductance. This is targeted at cartridges with coil impedances of 1~40 ohm (series coil connection, 1:10 gain, 2000mH inductance) or 1~5 ohm (parallel coil connection, 1:20 gain, 250mH inductance).
The accompanying frequency response curve is applicable when the source (cartridge coil) impedance is 40 ohm; while the frequency range is stated as "- 3 dB @ 5Hz to 100kHz". Once again, we see a transformer structure that the manufacturer recommends be set up for considerably more inductance when the cartridge impedance is expected to be higher, and commensurately less inductance when the cartridge impedance is expected to be lower. And on the same page Sowter declares "bandwidth improves with lower cartridge resistances".
You should be able to obtain primary inductance data from any company that winds its own transformers; Sowter, Ypsilon, Lundahl, Jensen, Cinemag, Intact Audio, Hashimoto etc. And even when the manufacturer does not wind the transformer units itself, they should be able to obtain the primary inductance data from their transformer supplier, or measure the value directly by placing an inductance meter across the au naturale transformer unit.
@jcarr , thank you Johnathan, exactly. I like Sowter transformers because I am not paying for a fancy box and I have been very happy with their customer service. I believe transformers should be internal in the phono stage. I have not personally seen a phono stage without enough internal real-estate for fitting a transformer. You can use the hardware already in the phono stage but I prefer to add another set of input jacks and a gold plated toggle switch so one can easily switch back and forth from MC to MM. When you internal them you avoid another set of interconnects saving even more money.
@jcarr , I forgot to ask! What do you think of transimpedance or current mode phono stages? I love the Atlas and it's impedance is low enough that it can be used with one.
JCarr, thanks again for yet another great help to SUT users. The only SUT-maker that I have dealt with personally are Jensen transformers in California, and yes those guys really know what they’re doing and what they are talking about, and they offer extensive information on how to use their products. I am sure the same must be true of the other companies that you have named specifically.
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