I know this is off topic but I've been looking all over the Internet for someone who still has a Klipsch sw308. I sent you a private message, I'm interested in buying it. Let me know if you'd be willing to sell it to me.
Sub Question. One higher quality sub or two lesser quality? (Rythmik vs HSU)
I have narrowed my choices to one Rythmik Audio G22 Dual 12" subwoofer or two HSU Research ULS-15 II. I am trying to keep my budget to under 2K. I like the fact that the Rythmik is servo controlled and seems to be of higher quality. But I also like the thought of two subs vs one.
What say ye, Audiogoners?
Oz
What say ye, Audiogoners?
Oz
65 responses Add your response
I manufacture bass guitar speaker cabinets and sometimes that gives the impression that I'm a bass player. But I'm not. Duke, Your Bass cabs look solid, nice. I get stoke from most Bass players, past and present. From Guitar player turn Bass player Kathy Valentine of the Go-Go's to Christian McBride, its all good. In '64 and JBL's DIY plans I cobbled together two 4530 'Scoops' and drove them using a Fender Deluxe with a modified line output to a Marantz 8B for amplification very loud. Lots of plywood on stages in those years. These days shop dust collection is everything, over build it. Don't mess around. Over the years I went through the 360/361, Magnavox SVT, BAG END w/ELF-M sub QSC, Bergantino, Mesa 400+, Tone Tubby, etc. scattered around the house. Small venue FOH gear came and went, I still have an older Tom Danley horn. Don't laugh my current rig is an Acoustic Image Focus driving an old 12" drum shell fitted with a BAG END 10" Coaxial and x/over upshot. Amp and speaker fit in a back pack, my Fiddle leaves me a free hand and just one trip to the car. So I began and ended up using DIY cabs. Life, eh? In early spring you should tour the full function Masa Boogie operation in Petaluma California on your way up to the valley to pick up a few bottles of Sinskey and Plump Jack. The mustard grass is pop-in that time of year and hardly any tourist. Make a reservation well in advance for La Ciccia a down to earth family run restaurant in SanFrancisco's Noe Valley. Don't eat all day. |
mapman:"
If you have large full range speakers that go down to the mid 30s, if you add subs, you need larger ones that deliver output below that range in that there is little to gain to start with otherwise and you don’t want to merely add to the frequencies already there.
Hello mapman, Your statement generally makes sense to me but only if the bass sound waves down to the mid 30s, that are being launched and reproduced by the pair of large full range and properly positioned stereo speakers, arrive intact at the listening position and are perceived as good quality bass. It's well understood by acousticians, and has been proven scientifically, that deep bass frequency soundwaves behave very differently than midrange and treble frequencies behave in a given room due to physics. Full cycle, or complete cycle, deep bass soundwaves are omnidirectional in their radiation patterns. are very long (a 20 Hz full cycle soundwave is 56' long), are not localizable at frequencies below about 80 Hz and are therefore perceived by us as mono. Full cycle, or complete cycle, midrange and treble sound waves, by comparison, are highly directional in their radiation patterns, are much shorter (a 1200 Hz midrange full cycle soundwave is under a foot long and a 20,000 Hz high treble full cycle soundwave is under an inch long), typically begin to be localizable at the higher bass frequency of about 80 Hz and the sound waves continue to become progressively shorter and more easily localizable as the frequencies increase beyond 80 Hz up to the generally cited upper audible limit of 20,000 Hz. This localizable full cycle soundwave threshold bass frequency of about 80 Hz is also the common threshold at which stereo perception begins when discrete L+R mono channel signals exist and are reproduced through discrete and properly positioned L+R speakers. My main point, finally presented, is that individuals typically position their pair of main speakers in the room, and in relation to their designated listening position/seat, in order to optimize their midrange and treble performance perception along with their stereo image perception. This results in individuals rarely, if ever, positioning their main speakers in their rooms, and in relation to their LP, in order to optimize their perceived bass performance. Individuals are unable to optimize the bass and the rest for the simple reason that the bass drivers on the full range speakers are permanently attached to the cabinet containing the other, equally permanently attached, midrange and treble drivers, and are therefore not capable of being independently positioned. Obviously, this creates a Catch-22 like dilemma. I believe most individuals, formerly including myself, just position their main speakers to optimize their perception of the midrange, treble and stereo imaging at their LP and resign themselves to accepting whatever unoptimized bass performance they perceive at their LP. Since bass performance at the LP is also known to be highly dependent and influenced by physics and the room itself, the quality of the bass perceived there is also highly dependent on the physical relationship of the main speakers to the LP. l strongly believe through personal experience, I know along with many others, that multiple independently positioned subs are a good solution to this dilemma. This solution is very effective whether it's achieved through the utilization of as few as a pair of subs or up to 4. used with a pair of larger full range or smaller limited low frequency range main speakers and can be configured to work well in virtually any size or shaped room. I also don't dismiss the effectiveness of bass line arrays, open baffle, planar-magnetic or horn-loaded type subs, I just have a total lack of personal experience with utilizing these thus far. I also wanted to state that I believe you agree, or at least already have a good understanding of, what I discussed above. I mainly posted for the benefit of other possibly less knowledgeable and experienced readers of this thread. Tim |
I would NOT add subs to those Cornwalls, with 15" woofers, ports, and high efficiency horns.+10 Adding a sub to the Cornwall will be an exercise in frustration. Very little program exists below 30Hz, so work on placement. Depending on the room, REW’s room simulator [https://roomeqwizard.com] or Loudspeakers Calculator at Dr J. Hunecke’s Room Acoustics can assist in determining optimum location I ordered the Hsu VTF-15 II yesterday.you'll be sorry... Get REW and a microphone and discover the bottom end phase response is a bucket of sludge. Since you gone and done it, please read http://www.ielogical.com/Audio/SubTerrBlues.php for some help on setting up. Read the links as well. Bonne chance! |
@onhwy61 - Have built OB subs? HAve you used the GR Research servo amp and drivers in a project? @mijostyn - you and I have mixed interactions, I probably misunderstood the very first question you asked me and the rest was, well...awkward. I do have questions regarding your post on the previous page, as I am actually like the OP ozzy62, trying to research on this very topic. |
TWO..or more,HSU and SVS both good as I am sure the others mentioned are too. SVS lets you have free shipping both ways..in case you wanted to send it back, SVS Also has 1 year trade up policy.Example, You buy 2 PC2000[Pro version Now but they have the PC2000's at this time].. and if later in the year you want to go bigger then send them back and you get FULL credit towards the Subwoofers that are higher up the price line.' Free Shipping all the way around. Power Sound Audio seems to make nice Subwoofers also, I have a friend that has one and enjoys it. He[Tom] used to be Part of SVS some years back. |
I looked a Rythmik before purchase two REL S2 SHO subwoofers. I thought REL's high level connection made sense. My goal was to have the best of two worlds, home theater and music. I like REL's technology because it makes more sense to blend subwoofer's with the main speaker so they act like additional woofers to extend the bass seamlessly. I also think two are better than one to help balance things out. |
mapman The Audio Research SP16 has two stereo main outputs. One goes to main amps which remains in stereo and the other to the sub.I understand that. On many ARC preamps, the main outputs are internally wired in parallel. That would mean you'd get mono out of both outputs even if you only wired one for mono. It looks like the SP16 is an exception. |
@cleeds The Audio Research SP16 has two stereo main outputs. One goes to main amps which remains in stereo and the other to the sub. So that is not an issue. I’ve learned a lot from Duke (audiokinesis) here over the years in regards to acoustics and sound dispersion in particular and factored that into my choice of a sub with three drivers facing three different directions. Actually I just checked and one correction.....the Klipsch sub has stereo l/r rca phono plug inputs, so I am actually not using a Y connector there these days with the ARC pre-amp which has the extra stereo main output for it. Glad I checked. I used to have it set up in a different system in another room where I split a single sub output off the integrated amp into dual plugs for both l/r input to this sub using a Y connector.. |
mapman Starting with one to get that right first makes a lot of sense. That’s the engineer in me speaking.I agree with you on that! ... Connection is line out from Audio Research sp16 preamp to sub using dual phono rca Y connector to merge channels.Aren't your preamp's outputs wired internally in parallel? If so, doesn't making one output mono make all of its outputs mono? |
Starting with one to get that right first makes a lot of sense. That’s the engineer in me speaking. I have a single powered sub setup using a Klipsch SW 308 with a pair of kef ls50s. Connection is line out from Audio Research sp16 preamp to sub using dual phono rca Y connector to merge channels. Simple and Sounds good. The miniDSP approach mentioned above would be interesting to try. Klipsch sw 308 has one forward facing active driver and dual passive radiators one to each side. That provides 3 different wave launch geometries in the room out of a single sub and allows the sub to be smaller as well. So you get something along the lines of Bass array approach benefits out of a single compact box which works for me in that I like to keep things simple. |
Get two subwoofers, one will drive you nuts. If you are using a larger driver in a properly designed sealed enclosure servo is not necessary. The larger the driver the lower the distortion because the larger driver does not have to move as far staying within the linear range of its suspension. This assumes drivers of equal quality. In a two subwoofer system 12" is OK, 15" is ideal as is 4 12" drivers. What you do need is a powerful amp with DSP control. Check this out https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-15-ultimax-subwoofer-and-cabinet-bundle--300-7097 Then you install one of these https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-spa1200dsp-1200w-subwoofer-amplifier-with-dsp--300-8000 and there you have it. Two 15" DSP controlled subwoofers for $2000.00. Spend just a little more and get the 2400 watt amp. These kits go together beautifully. If you are not good at putting on a finish you can cover them in black carpet or take them to a cabinet refinisher who can lacquer them black. Parts Express sells black carpet with an adhesive back. This is a very serious subwoofer. The driver is first class and significantly better than the ones you mentioned. The amp is no joke either although I would save a little more and go for the 2400 watt version. The future belongs to the brave so, get out that Gorilla glue and have at it:) |
Thanks for all the replies so far. My inclination at this time is to go with one VTF-15H II with the thought of adding another (or more) if necessary. My room is pretty large and bass friendly. I've never really had an issue with standing waves and actually integrated one Martin Logan sub with some monitors several years ago with no problems. Since the CW IV does very well on it's own, I really need something with high output at lower frequencies. Hopefully I will get lucky and one is all I need. Still thinking, but this is the way I'm leaning. Oz |
I used to have a HSU 3 Mark lV subwoofer and I know there are better but I would buy no other . It's well made and designed , goes very low with very little distortion , has very high wattage amplifier and has all the connections necessary for any need . HSU makes great subs . Rythmik also . Rel is also recommendable . |
Thanks ozzy62, lovin' this thread. I am considering building using Rythmik sub module and a pair of 12' in a folded dipole design. My only response so far was that the measurement device may not be the most accurate compared to an accelerometer .. Then I considered a DSP amplifier module moving away from the Rythmik AB to class D and no servo at all. Chasing the dragon.... I'll be reading with interest. Cheers mate. |
just get 2 of the
VTF-3 MK5 HP
subs from HSU or try to find 2 of the REL S/5 SHO subs used, if you go with the HSU VTF-3 MK5 HP subs you would be better off using the high level inputs from the amp instead of the LFE input.The high level inputs give a more even lower end sound for 2 channel listening while the LFE connection is more boomy and better suited for HT. |
My primary speakers are Tekton DI's which have very respectable bass and good efficiency. Similar to your Cornwalls in that regard. I also have a pair of the the Hsu subs you are considering. I feel they would do a great job of filling in that bottom octave you are after. Love mine and have no itch to upgrade. |
If Rythmik still offers a 10% discount on multiples, you should just be able to get a pair of the E15 subs for $2000. The only difference between the E15 and F15 is the size of the enclosure, and therefore a minute difference in output. Whether or not the F12 would provide enough output for you is also partially determined by how loud you listen. The F12 standard uses the Rythmik aluminum cone woofer, the F12G the GR Research paper cone woofer. There is no F15G. |
Mapman wrote: "As I read it the two outputs are already in parallel and connecting two subs to each directly would result in 4 in parallel which would could result in loads 2 ohms or less with nominal 8 ohm subs. Two in series to each would seem like a better idea?" Sorry I didn't go into detail. With one amp and four 4-ohm subs, the connection configuration is series/parallel, resulting in a 4 ohm load. With two amps there are several possibilities, but we never ask the amps to drive a load they're not rated for. Duke |
mapman: " I see two speaker outputs on the Dayton. How does that work to drive 4 subs? Hello mapman, It's actually 2 pairs of speaker outputs on the Dayton sub amp. I have a front pair of subs connected to the top pair of outputs and the other pair of subs connected to the bottom pair of outputs. The connection method of the AK Swarm and Debra systems' subs are also a bit unique as all 4 subs are connected in series/parallel configuration. Tim |
Yes, I use the Dayton SA-1000, that Duke mentioned, in my AK Debra 4-sub DBA. It's been on virtually 24/7 in my system for over 5 yrs now and still is performing flawlessly. A good option is to buy one of these for $300-400 from Parts Express or Monoprice and build or buy 4 passive 4 ohm subs and create your own custom swarm. The Dayton also functions as a sort of sub control unit since it has controls for volume, crossover frequency and phase along with l+r ch line level inputs and A+B sets of speaker outputs. Its 1,000 watt class AB amp has plenty of power to drive four 4 ohm subs and its controls allows for the setting of all four subs together as a group. Another method many use is the MiniDSP, which has a single set of analog L+R line level inputs and up to 4 L+R analog line level outputs to connect up to 4 self-amplified subs. This unit also has settings for volume, crossover frequency and phase plus the capacity to customize the crossover filter slopes. There's many ways to skin a cat. No matter how you do it, however, the cat can be relied upon to protest vehemently and loudly. I've never skinned a cat as far as you guys know, Tim |
I would NOT add subs to those Cornwalls, with 15" woofers, ports, and high efficiency horns. You could easily mess up what you have, it's very hard to add just the lowest ...... down to .... You are looking at specs that say down to 34hz. that is in a test space, open air, your's are in a room, sound waves contained, reflected, your bass is maintained below 34 I suspect. I strongly suggest you buy a decent sound meter, see what you are actually getting, and where. Look for any weak/too strong spots, standing or cancelling waves. With that sound meter, if you add subs, (or change speaker placement) you will be able to measure/adjust the crossover/blend from your listening spot. 2 channel system: 1 pair of subs, directional, located next to the cornwalls, forward facing. Bass is stereo, and the overtones of all low frequencies also give directional cues. |
@mapman asked: "One question I have is how are people connecting multiple subs to their two channel systems not necessarily designed to output to multiple subwoofers out of the box in a manner that maintains proper load?" I can't speak for others, but the Swarm and DEBRA systems use four passive subs which are normally driven by a single amplifier, and optionally by two amplifiers. The amplifier has line-level inputs, and if that won't do, then a voltage divider network can be built to derive a line-level signal from a speaker-level output, with the line-level signal then feeding the subwoofer amp. The amp we use is the Dayton Audio SA-1000. Duke |
I’d start with a single sub assuming that the subs used if two are not as good or well matched to the system. Getting the right sub to match is paramount. Best to start with one. That’s all you need if listening from a single sweet spot. Then, if needed to balance out other parts of the room, add more later. I’d stick to a single sub model that matches well though different models might work as long as all match similarly well but I would get one right first then add more of same if needed. One question I have is how are people connecting multiple subs to their two channel systems not necessarily designed to output to multiple subwoofers out of the box in a manner that maintains proper load? |
